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Izamu or Rogue Necro?

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I am enjoying my current run with Nicodem and I have been using Izamu. I am thinking about giving the RN a go. Who do you prefer? I have found Izamu great but he seems to be lacking something in the punch stakes at times. What's your experiences and who do you prefer?

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I only have experience using Izamu with Kirai but I love the thing.  Not just for being a spirit, either.  Although that helps, with a handful of ways to give something Adversary.  He's also really good at holding models where you want them with a 3" reach and big positives to disengaging.

I don't like Three Headed.  It's great on paper, but I've never actually liked it.  I'm coming out of gremlins, and I listened to everyone and picked up the Sow, and I regret it.  Granted, I'm not a huge fan of Ulix either, but when it comes to putting out the hurt I'd rather have Gracie than the Sow.  3 headed is only good until the opponent starts to attack that model.  After that point, it underperforms too much for my liking.

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I feel as if Rogue Necromancy is much more of a niche piece than it has ever been for us now that we have more options for high point enforcer beaters. I find he's great in those niches, however, like in a Hunting Party Yan Lo/McM list. I like him with Yan Lo for Pack (helps keep Yan Lo mobile without using AP) and Yan can keep him topped off. It's not competitive, but it sure is fun! 

 

Izamu is an all comers beater. He is incredible, just be careful around pieces that ignore armor!

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Rogue definitely has his uses, but if Izamu is lacking "punch" you may need to look at how you're using him. Are you keeping him in Nico's bubble? Are you using Necrotic King to give him an extra positive flip on his damage? If he's dying too quickly, have you considered having the Graveyard Spirit babysit him?

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Ill persevere with Izamu at the moment

18 minutes ago, DefyingReality said:

Rogue definitely has his uses, but if Izamu is lacking "punch" you may need to look at how you're using him. Are you keeping him in Nico's bubble? Are you using Necrotic King to give him an extra positive flip on his damage? If he's dying too quickly, have you considered having the Graveyard Spirit babysit him?

Yes to all of that.....except the graveyard spirit....I might be able to find the points to include him...cheers 

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The following are of course simply personal opinions :)

I stick to Izamu in Yan Lo lists for the ancestor synergy, but also because Yan Lo can 'feed the machine' with Lightning Dance, mitigating Izamu's poor mobility.  That also allows me to keep Izamu back - I find that armour 2 is not enough to keep him safe, since if he's in the thick of it people just go after him with things that ignore armour.  As the earlier posters have said, as a tarpit to keep key models locked down he is great, but I find I need to bring the models to him rather than the other way around, and that's not always possible in other crews.

For Nico I feel the Rogue has a lot going for him.  As well as being a great beater, he can drag Nico up the board with him to give Nico another option for movement, and his breath attack gets the advantage of undead crowning to allow him to snipe weaker/wounded stuff at range before charging, increasing the damage output.  Plus I feel his <terrifying+impossible to wound> is harder to get around than Izamu's arnour, and Nico can keep him going with the built-in trigger on decay (which admittedly works for Izamu too).

I would definitely give him a go with Nico.

 

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I'm firmly in the RN camp - Three-Headed and Undead Crowning really make the RN a menace. Ml 7 means that even if your opponent on Def 6 (on the high end of Def stats) cheats in the Red Joker, you can cheat a 13 in and hit straight flips (positive if :ramflipped/cheated). The ability to get 5 damage (Izamu's severe) by flipping/cheating a 6 in for the damage flip is imo very strong if you are looking to delete models from the game. 

Another reason I like RN's - The thrice accursed 10T! Those guys get so many plus flips or abilities to neutralize HtW/:-fate flips in duels that Impossible to Wound comes in very handy, it can stop them cheating the damage flip, preventing a large amount of damage being applied.

 

Izamu is great, I like him a lot as a roadblock and a tarpit. as Strangely Brown says  he works very nicely with Yan Lo and the natural :+fate to damage flips is very useful. Sometimes you can have an Onryo babysitting him to apply Adversary to a target if you want Izamu to go to town on a model.

 

 

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Here is an old thread which changed my perception about RN, haven't really used it before I read it, now I usually take it instead of Izamu:

tl;dr: RN is far better as a beatstick than Izamu, his Ml6 and his dmg track is quite bad. If you need a tarpit, he is a better choice, but he usually requires some kind of delivery system. Nicodem can grant him Fast and he can give him a +ve flip on his attack flips, so he is not a bad choice for his crew, but in a vacuum RN is usually the better choice.

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1 minute ago, huntroll said:

Here is an old thread which changed my perception about RN, haven't really used it before I read it, now I usually take it instead of Izamu:

Thanks for posting this, I was looking for it before but couldn't locate it :)

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In my day dreams about Yan Lo (complete with venus-style clam shell) a nurse gives poor feeble Izamu some hallucinogens and the lightening dancing begins!

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Nurse + Izamu is a very strong combo, obviously (and yes I've done it). But then so is Nurse + Rogue Necromancy. I think both of these models are solid choices for most crews against most factions. As with everything in Malifaux, to answer the "which is better?" question, the answer is always "it depends". (The synergy with Kirai / Yan Lo with Izamu is obvious, so I'll leave them out of the equation - if you're taking Rogue Necromancy instead of Izamu with either of those masters then you either making a mistake or are a better player than I!)

One general rule you can apply is that both Terrifying and Armor are passive defense traits that each faction can potentially work around. Thus, they both work better when you have multiple models with them. This is because a lot of crews will have maybe one or two models that ignore Armor or Horror duels, and it's thus easier for your opponent to send those targeted models at the one model you have with Terrifying/Armor. So, if I was taking a crew that had a lot of Willpower duels (e.g. Terrifying, Manipulative) then the Rogue Necromancy would be my first choice, and likewise if I was taking models with Armor (Ashigaru, Anna Lovelace, etc.) then Izamu would be the first choice. I'd look to having at least three key models with these attributes, and ideally at least 50% of your force. E.g. my Seamus crew typically runs 4 terrifying models and 4 minions/peons. If I drop one of the terrifying models for something else at a similar cost (e.g. changing out Yin for Anna) it will usually get targeted way more frequently.

Not knowing the composition of your typical Nicodem crew, I would suspect that Rogue Necromancy is a slightly better choice than Izamu. There's a small Poison sub-theme in Nicodem, which the Rogue Necromancy can help with. Nicodem's heal can easily keep the Rogue Necromancy at fighting fitness, retaining the :+fate flips. Undead Crowning arguably helps the Rogue Necromancy more, because it will hit 5 damage way more often than Izamu, and having :+fate to attack and :+fate:+fate to damage flips with the base Ml7 means you will be able to rely on raw flips more often. Finally, an average Nicodem crew will likely easily generate the extra attack from Smell Fear (whether from Nicodem himself, the terrifying tests, Hanged, Nurse, Belle or whatever else).

Hope this helps,

~gwh

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I'm more of an Arcanist player than Resser, and I've never used Nicodem, but the Rogue Necro is a staple of my Seamus, Molly, and Marcus crews. Yes, if it is targeted, it will fall quickly, but the same can be said for any unit in the game. However, its offensive capabilities are impressive enough to ensure its place in any of my crews which can hire it. (In the interest of full disclosure, I am a big fan of Three-Headed.)

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