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Krellnus

Promises

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What am I not seeing with this upgrade, every time I see someone take Sidir (and Queeg, if Sidir isn't present) it's an auto include to take promises. Why is that? Outside of McCabe and The Hoff, I don't see any particular synergies with guild masters since only McCabe and The Hoff can dole out upgrades. What am I missing?

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Anyone with upgrades gets positives, including the holder. It's worth the stone to give Sidir/Queeq positives on its own, and the aura to give them out to say Franc and your master while they beat on things? Amazing. 

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The thing is, Queeg and Sidir don't really hold their own in melee for their cost (and Queeg probably shouldn't be attacking period) Franc is nice of course, but if he's in melee, you don't have el Mayor and the only melee beaters we have are McMourning and McCabe, who admittedly love the extra flip.

The only other master to get some bonus out of is Nellie since incite uses wp to attack. The way I see it is, promises is good when comes up, but or doesn't come up good often enough to auto take unless you're running McCabe or Hoffman.

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Promises also benefits Enforcers. There's the Executioners, who got a 0SS in book 4 that gives them +1 Wk. There's a bit of anti-synergy in that they have to pitch the upgrade if they want to use its ability to take a Charge action as a (1) action, but you can always sandbag it for that sweet :+fate to Ml flips. There's also the Peacekeeper, who can now take another Wave 4 book upgrade, A Debt to the Guild, which refunds a SS on death and can also provide a one-turn damage boost without discarding the upgrade. Given how potent its damage track is, getting :+fate to all of them and a turn of absolute pain is awesome. It's a construct, sure, but it's strong enough that other Masters appreciate it.

I'd also argue the Judge can benefit from Promises with his general resilience and the fact he loves extra changes to get that shooting trigger.

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54 minutes ago, Krellnus said:

The thing is, Queeg and Sidir don't really hold their own in melee for their cost (and Queeg probably shouldn't be attacking period) Franc is nice of course, but if he's in melee, you don't have el Mayor and the only melee beaters we have are McMourning and McCabe, who admittedly love the extra flip.

The only other master to get some bonus out of is Nellie since incite uses wp to attack. The way I see it is, promises is good when comes up, but or doesn't come up good often enough to auto take unless you're running McCabe or Hoffman.

You're right, Queeg and Sidir should not be focused on fighting, they are not beaters. Sidir is a shooter/shenanigans and Queeg is a support/debuffer handing out Slow everywhere. Promises supports the majority of a crew's big hitters that will have upgrades anyway. If you aren't taking models with upgrades or they are spread out more (Interference) it's probably not worth it. If you have Show of Force and Extraction showing up, Promises becomes insane. I don't see taking Sidir or Queeg without Promises in any situation, barring McCabe hogging it himself.

Also, this:

Just now, Alansonchik said:

Lady J + Phiona Cage + Brutal Emissary + Queeg with Promises.

Oh lord.

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18 hours ago, Krellnus said:

The thing is, Queeg and Sidir don't really hold their own in melee for their cost (and Queeg probably shouldn't be attacking period) Franc is nice of course, but if he's in melee, you don't have el Mayor and the only melee beaters we have are McMourning and McCabe, who admittedly love the extra flip.

The only other master to get some bonus out of is Nellie since incite uses wp to attack. The way I see it is, promises is good when comes up, but or doesn't come up good often enough to auto take unless you're running McCabe or Hoffman.

It may be that it just doesn't suit your playstyle, but until you've had those :+fate flips you might just not know what you're missing out on. Please try it out and remember that it applies to any friendly models with an upgrade. That includes Generic Upgrades, McCabe's relics, Jack Daw's curses...

Sure, the Wp buff doesn't come up AS often, but you do appreciate them when Terrifying is on the table, which is often, or just when something strange is in the neighbourhood. The way I play, my Promises-bearer plans to be pretty darn close to the action and I am often getting the :+fate flips to Ml on all the models I want which is never a bad thing (even when flipping the Black Joker, as I definitely prefer to know where it is).

If that's something that you can't see the value in, that's fine! You obviously see things in a different way to most people here, and means that you probably have strengths in other areas of the game.

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21 hours ago, Alansonchik said:

Lady J + Phiona Cage + Brutal Emissary + Queeg with Promises.

I see your bet, and raise Nellie + Phiona + Franc + Sidir with Promises.

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Some resser builds and some neverborn builds have a lot of Wp attacks so promises is very much like having defensive but for WP on your whole crew.

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22 hours ago, ArcticPangolin said:

It may be that it just doesn't suit your playstyle, but until you've had those :+fate flips you might just not know what you're missing out on. Please try it out and remember that it applies to any friendly models with an upgrade. That includes Generic Upgrades, McCabe's relics, Jack Daw's curses...

Sure, the Wp buff doesn't come up AS often, but you do appreciate them when Terrifying is on the table, which is often, or just when something strange is in the neighbourhood. The way I play, my Promises-bearer plans to be pretty darn close to the action and I am often getting the :+fate flips to Ml on all the models I want which is never a bad thing (even when flipping the Black Joker, as I definitely prefer to know where it is).

If that's something that you can't see the value in, that's fine! You obviously see things in a different way to most people here, and means that you probably have strengths in other areas of the game.

I have used the upgrade a couple of times, with both McCabe (who I still can't quite 'get') and Nellie, but not yet with The Hoff (just can't quite fit in another 8 stone model). I won't speak on McCabe since I haven't figured him out yet, but with Nellie I was less than impressed. The way I see it the ability to cheat in the card you want is what wins duels, not :+fate since in my experience you can usually hold the cards you need, if promises was :+fate to damage I could see a lot more use for it. Maybe it's just as you say, I see things different to most others (so I should stick around the forums a bit more :P).

18 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Some resser builds and some neverborn builds have a lot of Wp attacks so promises is very much like having defensive but for WP on your whole crew.

I was not aware of that, I will consider it more often when I play against ressers or neverborn, thanks.

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18 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Some resser builds and some neverborn builds have a lot of Wp attacks so promises is very much like having defensive but for WP on your whole crew.

On the portion of your crew carrying upgrades and in the right place - and both ressers and neverborn excel at moving enemy models about (Belles lure for example) 

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13 minutes ago, Krellnus said:

I have used the upgrade a couple of times, with both McCabe (who I still can't quite 'get') and Nellie, but not yet with The Hoff (just can't quite fit in another 8 stone model). I won't speak on McCabe since I haven't figured him out yet, but with Nellie I was less than impressed. The way I see it the ability to cheat in the card you want is what wins duels, not :+fate since in my experience you can usually hold the cards you need, if promises was :+fate to damage I could see a lot more use for it. Maybe it's just as you say, I see things different to most others (so I should stick around the forums a bit more :P).

 

You are right Promises doesn't help much if you really want the attack to hit and are going to cheat to make sure it works, but I can easily make 6-10 Ml attacks in a turn, and I can't cheat them all to work.   If you only make 3-4 Ml attacks in the turn, then it doesn't help so much. What you might well find is that being able to cheat second is what wins duels, at least in the long run. Cards in hand are  very powerful commodity, but in a normal turn I expect to only have 1 severe card in hand, and I can't use that on every duel. But knowing what Total I have to reach to hit will often allow me to use moderate cards to hit, which if I had to cheat first, my opponent would have been able to cheat past. 

Its also very strong against models that have a way of giving you negative flips, such as Yin, Jack daw or the Brewmaster. 

But eevryones style is different, so it might not be worth it for you. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Adran said:

You are right Promises doesn't help much if you really want the attack to hit and are going to cheat to make sure it works, but I can easily make 6-10 Ml attacks in a turn, and I can't cheat them all to work.   If you only make 3-4 Ml attacks in the turn, then it doesn't help so much. What you might well find is that being able to cheat second is what wins duels, at least in the long run. Cards in hand are  very powerful commodity, but in a normal turn I expect to only have 1 severe card in hand, and I can't use that on every duel. But knowing what Total I have to reach to hit will often allow me to use moderate cards to hit, which if I had to cheat first, my opponent would have been able to cheat past. 

Its also very strong against models that have a way of giving you negative flips, such as Yin, Jack daw or the Brewmaster. 

But eevryones style is different, so it might not be worth it for you. 

 

See I find myself making the same amount of MI attacks in a turn (in a melee list) but of those I usually only need 1-4 to actually hit their target, any other hits are a bonus and the models I need to hit, might not necessarily have upgrades.

I notice people keep listing scenarios where Promises is good, I never denied that it was good, I question why it was a must-take in most guild lists. Is it just one of those things you either swear by or swear off? Because that is starting to seem like the case to me.

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For myself, I love promises on McCabe as he can move the upgrades around to have the benefit of promises cover the people that most need it in any given turn.

However, I don't see much value in spending 7-9ss on a henchman where the manin reason you chose him was to be able to take this upgrade.  Spending all that for a 1ss upgrade is having the tail wag the dog.

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3 hours ago, Joel said:

For myself, I love promises on McCabe as he can move the upgrades around to have the benefit of promises cover the people that most need it in any given turn.

However, I don't see much value in spending 7-9ss on a henchman where the manin reason you chose him was to be able to take this upgrade.  Spending all that for a 1ss upgrade is having the tail wag the dog.

Do you think those two henchmen aren't worth taking otherwise? They both seem like pretty good options to me, especially in our Show of Force heavy scheme pools.

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1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

Do you think those two henchmen aren't worth taking otherwise? They both seem like pretty good options to me, especially in our Show of Force heavy scheme pools.

Mostly yes, I don't rate them.  I had high hopes for Queeg, but both are underwhelming - guild isn't short on good options.  Each can be good in the right list - but that list is not a "promises" list IMO

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6 hours ago, Krellnus said:

I notice people keep listing scenarios where Promises is good, I never denied that it was good, I question why it was a must-take in most guild lists. Is it just one of those things you either swear by or swear off? Because that is starting to seem like the case to me.

I'm speaking from a McCabe point of view. There are a lot of crews and pools where I wouldn't necessarily swap out some other massive model for Queeg/Sidir since that buff turns out expensive.

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7 hours ago, Joel said:

On the portion of your crew carrying upgrades and in the right place - and both ressers and neverborn excel at moving enemy models about (Belles lure for example) 

In my McCabe crews I can usually clog it up with terrain, McCabe, a peacekeeper and a hunter so  they can't move my most vulnerable models too far out of place. 

As someone already said promises often forces your opponent to cheat first on some flips where the opposite would have been true if you hadn't had it. So instead of a belle luring you on a top-decked 4-7 they might need to cheat. Now they need to decide on cheating a 8-10 to draw a high card from me or let it slide.

I'm not sure I'm right though. I'm actually pretty sure you could stomp me with a halfassed list if I brought my a-game if you are Joel Henry ;) 

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I find Queeg good for Headhunter and for Nellie`s crew although he`s whip damage track is meh.  1/2/4 with a ram built in with the mask would be better.

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I'm more often using Queeg to hit and reposition my own models than the enemy, anyway, unless they're out of cards. If the Arcanists are happy paying 6 for pure repositioning, I suppose I can pay 8 for repositioning plus Promises plus the look on my opponent's face when Hoffman heals the repositioning and/or overclocking damage back up. :P

Have yet to use Queeg's interact aura, though. What an oversight! That was half the reason I bought him. :mellow:

And "Wp buff doesn't come up as often" my arse. There is exactly one person in my meta who doesn't use willpower duels all day every day, and it's me.

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

In my McCabe crews I can usually clog it up with terrain, McCabe, a peacekeeper and a hunter so  they can't move my most vulnerable models too far out of place. 

As someone already said promises often forces your opponent to cheat first on some flips where the opposite would have been true if you hadn't had it. So instead of a belle luring you on a top-decked 4-7 they might need to cheat. Now they need to decide on cheating a 8-10 to draw a high card from me or let it slide.

I'm not sure I'm right though. I'm actually pretty sure you could stomp me with a halfassed list if I brought my a-game if you are Joel Henry ;) 

I am Joel Henry ?

With mccabe I take promises every time - on him. I don't see huge benefit in trying to force promises into other crews though by taking the black sheep henchmen 

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13 minutes ago, Joel said:

I am Joel Henry ?

With mccabe I take promises every time - on him. I don't see huge benefit in trying to force promises into other crews though by taking the black sheep henchmen 

Don`t you think Queeg is nice in Headhunter as he has a 8" head pickup range? I like him for the 3" melee and in Nellie crew with 2-3 other beaters I can find a place for him although I wish I`d taken something else when things get tough...

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He doesn't kill well enough to get those heads dropped for my playstyle, and when he's been used against me, he dies too easily.  For the cost I'd probably play a hunter who could drag enemy models into position with his gun, making it easier to pick up heads, gets pos flips often and gets to push st the end of turns for shenanigans 

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I use him for picking up heads, not dropping them, but I on the other hand can`t force myself to play hunters, so it might be some personal preferences.

I do agree he`s not killy enough.

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