Anyone had much success with Hayreddin?

[MalifauxMartin]

Hey,

My go to masters are Nicodem, Molly, sometimes Reva and McMourning. I'm just not seeing where he fits into a crew.

What masters do you use him with? 

Any particular schemes and strats?

Any filthy combos you've discovered?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Reva, Molly, and a little bit Seamus have good game with him.

Anything in range of him and a corpse marker in a Reva crew is pretty much dead, if you haven't burned all your cards keeping him alive.

Molly likes him if he can be kept away from her because he won't suffer dmg to her models exploding, and her summons get deadlier if summoned in range.

Seamus, if the positioning is right, likes him because he can save an AP on having to focus every turn.

The issue with all of the is Hayreddin requires a great deal of care in using, because he will destroy your crew if you position badly or if the enemy is able to position him badly for you. For that reason he tends to get relegated to lonely flanking duties, hunting down scheme runners and hoping to be in a position to do a fortuitous positioning kill. Unfortunately there are better models for those duties, so I tend to see him very little and use him little, especially given how many movement effects there are in the game.

Of all the Resser Masters Reva probably has the best game with him.

[godswearhats]

I'm still struggling to find a good use for him. I like him a lot, and I love the model, so I'll keep trying but everything I've done with him so far has been unimpressive. Having only 6 Wds means he's very vulnerable, even with Df 7. So, everything below is Theoryfaux, stuff I want to try.

I think he might be good for something like Leave Your Mark? I think he'd also make a good sweeper to help prevent things like Leave Your Mark being score against you - because he'll murder anything that would likely run schemes. So, next time that's in the pool I'll see if I can include him.

I want to try running him more with Bête Noire. If he gets in close, the threat of Bête coming out could be the additional defense that he needs to stay alive. If he isn't killed but instead kills something, then she can benefit from the flips to damage.

Datsue Ba (arguably the best Henchman in the faction) has a 1/2/6 damage spread on her Weigh Sins action. Hitting the severe is awesome because it ignores armor and turns whatever you're attacking into your minion, so getting the there would really help increase the chance of hitting severe or being able to cheat. Removing the need to focus is pretty cool (much like how Fetid Strumpet was saying for Seamus).

Anyway, my off-the-cuff thoughts about him.

~gwh

[Greebo]

I've been fielding him 5 or 6 times (only with Reva iirc) and he's been extremely hit or miss. Sometimes he's been winning me the game almost singlehandedly by engaging key models to prevent shooting or them getting to key locations or by holding key locations and thus preventing interacts. Other times he just got shot dead before he could do a thing. 

What I really like about him is his speed and general mobility, paired with his good engagement range. If I have soulstones to spare I like giving him necrotic preparation. I often just fly him to key locations early and engage snipers or other models I don't want in my crew. His high defense often makes him stay around quite some time. 

His second great ability is his damage aura which has only been helpful to me. Paired with Reva or other beaters that are able to stay out of the aura themselves Hayreddin pushes their damage to extreme levels. 

His last major ability is his (0) paired with his condition. Situationally it has been nice to be able to ignore armor or to heal but it's more of a nice to have. 

I find that both his aura and his (0) can be a trap. The games where I used Hayreddin to engage key models and hunt scheme runners instead of focusing on his damaging abilities have been really good, the games where I tried to exploit the aura and the (0) less so. 

In my mind he is a great model for a moderate cost. I don't think he is an auto include but I like him with non summoning masters. Our summoners don't really need him because they can summon stuff to engage key models and to hunt scheme runners. 

Sorry if the text is a little bit chaotic but my students keep asking questions instead of focusing on their test

[Lord Malkom]

In which way is Hayreddin saving Seamus an AP because he doesn't need focus?
He just gets + on his dmg flip. But if the attack fails there is no damage at all. It's a nice bonus but you still need to focus in my opinion.

[Tris]

Not if the opponent happens to not stand in cover - then you could shoot and still get a cheatable damage flip, even if the difference is too low otherwise.

[Kogan Style]

I've only used him with Reva, as my Decaying Aura holder. It allows me to block healing up close (usually in the Extraction/Turf War zone) which rinsed Fingers in a game, and still provide  to damage flips for Reva who is sat further back. Also that shotgun has a good damage output which is nice not to have prevented. When he dies he gives you some card draw (I have not gotten too much use out of vitality since is this advanced role usually sees him dead)

 

 

[Slapdrone]

He's been a great frame for murder target for me.  Full points for it in three tournament games.  Give him fast with Tara or Nico and he can engage just about any model turn one.  Df7 doesn't save him from a lot of Masters and henchmen.

[Kogan Style]

21 minutes ago, Slapdrone said:

  Give him fast with Tara or Nico and he can engage just about any model turn one.  Df7 doesn't save him from a lot of Masters and henchmen.

Nicodem can't give him fast as he isn't Undead. 

[Slapdrone]

Oops.  I've actually just done it with Tara, thought it might work for a Nico player as well.  I don't use Nico, but I've had the Nico fast zap wreck my end of game on many occasions and forgot it was just on Undead. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

You don't need focus because of the way the card mechanics work. Seamus can't afford to miss generally if you are going for the big shot. There are strategies for only regular shooting his gun, and filling out with shot(s) from live for pain (which is also potentially good with Hayreddin). The issue is if you are counting on the positive flip from Focus to ensure you're going to hit, you've chosen the wrong target to attack. If your opponent has any knowledge AND experience with the game they know that Seamus only has one shot each turn, and they know his Sh stat is only good enough for maybe hitting, not forcing through shots. If they have any knowledge of the game they are going to hold back the card that will best protect their important models. Resser crews have such terrible DF they generally don't need high cards to hit, and so can hold those back for Defense. If you chose to target a 6 DF model with a focus, and you don't actually have a 13 in your hand your odds of hitting aren't going to be significantly improved by the extra positive on the attack flip. If it were you'd see SS being used on attack flips more often on basic attacks, and not just to offset negatives.

Focused Seamus shots live or die in target selection based on need and hand rank. I NEVER EVER target something with a focused shot I'm not guaranteed to hit (excluding a black joker flip, which is another story) unless I absolutely have no better option. The advantage Heyreddin gives is that you can go for the Jump in, Live for Pain, (Live for Pain again if you didn't jump in) and then .50 caliber Flintlock shot, with all of them posing large amounts of danger for allowing through. Leveraging this also is beneficial because if they are holding a card back for the flintlock shot, it increases the odds that Live for pain will get through and do decent dmg from moderate or severe if it gets through.

The extreme downside is of course if they have the means to move Heyreddin around and force him into your crew, or if they just decide they's rather not get shot and  have the skill to engage him or other models near him to confuse potential targets when randomizing. It's why I don't tend to like him, all that often, with Seamus. Seamus is really tied down by all the restrictions with no way round on his shot. No way to avoid randomizing, no way to shoot again if he misses, subject to cover and the like. It's just been too easy for opponents to just play around the combo, or use it for their own advantage.

Personal opinion, Heyreddin is properly costed, and really fun. He's just VERY inconsistent, and a potential danger to your own crew, and so I'm not sure he has a place in competitive lists outside some niche builds taking him into account specifically. He isn't bad, but he brings a lot of variables to the game, and in competitive builds reducing variance is key. You have enough randomness with your card draws, you don't need it in your crew as well.

[chris_havoc]

What @Fetid Strumpet and @Greebo have said is largely how I feel about him. I don't have Reva but I can certainly see the appeal to use him in her lists. You could even keep him relatively close by to use her push and Trigger to use him as a Corpse Marker. It seems like a reliably good combo to me, though he can die quite easily if your opponent flips well that's why I also really like Necrotic Preparation on him, make the opponent pay for taking him out if you do get unlucky with his Df 7.

I use him with Tara and the Nothing Beast (and/or Scion), it makes the latter's damage potential a real threat and the 3" engagement range usually keeps it out of Hayreddin's Aura. I'd imagine the same is true for other low minimum damage monsters out there as has been mentioned, thinking Hanged might like him around too. He also works well with Tara discarding cards along with the Wretches and Nothing Beast's high Df it makes for a pretty resilient crew.

I've found him very useful as a gambit, he is a high threat and so is good at drawing fire at a high cost with Necrotic Preparation and if he doesn't draw fire, there's a high cost with his Aura. The real trick to him is positioning, as has been said, but once he's got some Vitality going that's not too hard. That he's only 7/8ss makes it not a huge loss if the gambit fails and he dies but high risk if you place him poorly.

[asrian]

I've used him quite a bit in Molly, Seamus, McMourning, and Yan Lo crews. I'm careful about his position in relation to my crew (enemy in aura, friendly isn't) if possible. I like running him with Unnerving Aura. 

 

I tend to use him as a front line beater, or as a flank, anri-scheme runner. I also like to hire Anna Lovelace with him as she can fire into combat without randomization and her gun trigger capitalizes on the plus flip to summon Mindless Zombies or Seishen.

[TheTrans]

Why do people want positive flips on Reva's damage track? I find one of the things that makes her so powerful is the low range of 3 (4 if you've got the corpses) as you can just math your way through murdering a model. Like I get, a certain positive here, or there is great, but not so much for Reva IMHO.

[Fetid Strumpet]

For more dmg without cheating from hand. Sure you can math your way to killing something but if a model has 8 wounds it will take 3 hits at min 3, and two hits if you hit for 5 or more on one swing and at least 3 on a second. Even if she doesn't kill them, the closer they are to 0 the fewer swings other models in the crew might have to take to finish them off.

At base Malifaux is a game of resource management and efficiency. The fewer resources it takes to do anything the better it is for you. Doing more wounds, with less AP spent, and less cards cheated from hand is really good. Games are often won or lost on margins of efficiency and that's why Heyreddin's ability is useful to Reva. It isn't because she absolutely needs to do severe to be effective, it's because severe without having to cheat for it, or overcome H2W is just more efficient than not.

[iamthefly]

Never tried him but this is the Internet so... I think he would pair nicely with the Valictidorian as he can keep up with her and her damage is 2/?/6 so a + to damage is a bigger deal because her spread is so wide . Even though she has a trigger for ++, you can't always hit/stone it. And she can sit outside his bubble reaching in with her 3" Ml . 

Any beater with a low min but high mod/max . 

Pairing his aura  with McTavish who can shoot into cc could be fun. See also Hans.