After errata Levi

[Kaos]

The "huge huring Pool" thing is a Trap, since several masters synergies much better than him with these extra models.

Unless there is some kind of insane combo with outcast plus hired model, then isn't do useful. Also outcast models can be hired by other factions but doesn't look like they particularly shine. However paria of metal is marginally better since constructs can be find in more than one faction.

[Nukemouse]

6 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Many Outcasts are Mercenaries so you can field them with Seamus. The only Undead not from Ressers are Fae and Levi theme crew- about 8 models. I admit, his hiring pool is biggest in the entire game, but it doesn't mean that this and low damage should be the only reason to pick him.

Don't forget Jack Daw's crew and the riders! Perhaps I'll be called crazy for this, but I'd kinda like to see Pariah of Iron and Bone removed from the game and replaced with one upgrade that lets you only hire Levi's Theme crew, the riders, undead and constructs, but NONE of the other outcasts and no mercenaries! I mean killjoy etc would be okay, but i mean like no performers or Lust or whatever, no actually using the mercenary function. That way he picks between normal outcast and crazy hiring pool, but at cost to his access to other models like Johan, Sue or whatever. Speaking of which what M&SU constructs work best with Johan? I never thought about it before but Levi can take them to give him the solidarity bonus, plus he could heal them i guess if you are taking more than a few.

@aquenaton Unfortunately its not that simple, since your Waifs are very vulnerable and even if you hide or protect them they need to be near your other key models, which the enemy can simply kill, move or bury instead of the waif, which they will likely do since eliminating a key model from your crew is pretty normal and worthwhile without trying to mess up the foe's master. Levi can really only pop out to places he already has a model at, either to sacrifice or to anchor him, so his mobility and his "surprise" factor are not very high compared to other masters.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Nukemouse
replying to aquenaton

[Cedar]

4 minutes ago, Nukemouse said:

Don't forget Jack Daw's crew and the riders! Perhaps I'll be called crazy for this, but I'd kinda like to see Pariah of Iron and Bone removed from the game and replaced with one upgrade that lets you only hire Levi's Theme crew, the riders, undead and constructs, but NONE of the other outcasts and no mercenaries! I mean killjoy etc would be okay, but i mean like no performers or Lust or whatever, no actually using the mercenary function. That way he picks between normal outcast and crazy hiring pool, but at cost to his access to other models like Johan, Sue or whatever. Speaking of which what M&SU constructs work best with Johan? I never thought about it before but Levi can take them to give him the solidarity bonus, plus he could heal them i guess if you are taking more than a few.

In Malifaux 1.5 he had this ability: "Pariah :Crews containing this model can only hire Constructs, Undead, and Soulless models, but may hire them from any Faction without additional cost. This model cannot hire Totems. At the start of the first Activation Phase, Summon a Hollow Waif to base contact with this model." I think that it should be added now for him (with few changes of course). Riders Crew is interesting idea, but mostly for fun. Jack Daw crew is useless with Levi (except dead bandits). For Johan i found that either Joss or Langston are nice choices with him, but Joss works better- Johan can heal him when he drops to 1 Wd, allowing him to stay few hits more.

[Nukemouse]

2 minutes ago, Cedar said:

In Malifaux 1.5 he had this ability: "Pariah :Crews containing this model can only hire Constructs, Undead, and Soulless models, but may hire them from any Faction without additional cost. This model cannot hire Totems. At the start of the first Activation Phase, Summon a Hollow Waif to base contact with this model." I think that it should be added now for him (with few changes of course). Riders Crew is interesting idea, but mostly for fun. Jack Daw crew is useless with Levi (except dead bandits). For Johan i found that either Joss or Langston are nice choices with him, but Joss works better- Johan can heal him when he drops to 1 Wd, allowing him to stay few hits more.

I had been thinking more along the lines of maybe using multiple weaker constructs, to provide easy scrap for Alyce to use every turn for Abominations instead of alternating between creating and using scrap.

[Cedar]

When i take Mech rider i also hire Alyce with from aether. Rider summons arachnids/gamin, then they die and she can summon Abomination. Taking Joss/Large Arachnid with her is very nice.

[solkan]

27 minutes ago, Nukemouse said:

A large hiring pool is only a "big advantage" when it enables some kind of crazy combos or access to models that become overpowered outside their normal hiring conditions. There are indeed some cool combos in the game but Leveticus is hardly the only person with access to these kinds of combos through hiring pool tricks or simply using in-faction combos, especially since the other "hiring pool" and combo masters get to add their own abilities into the list of synergies and combos. Also where does this "can't score assassinate" idea come from? If he's buried at the end of the game he counts as dead and your opponent scores assassinate.

Part of the advantage of extended hiring pools is showing up with unexpected models after declaring your faction at the start of the game.

Suppose you're playing Ressurectionists vs. Guild, the Guild player has a good reason to expect undead models and plan accordingly.  For the Guild player going up against Outcasts, what are the odds of an undead or construct heavy crew showing up?

The game is designed on the basis of crew choices made with partial information, after all.

 

[Nukemouse]

1 minute ago, solkan said:

Part of the advantage of extended hiring pools is showing up with unexpected models after declaring your faction at the start of the game.

Suppose you're playing Ressurectionists vs. Guild, the Guild player has a good reason to expect undead models and plan accordingly.  For the Guild player going up against Outcasts, what are the odds of an undead or construct heavy crew showing up?

The game is designed on the basis of crew choices made with partial information, after all.

 

Well then we need to cuddle the Crossroads Seven, since they could unpredictably show up at any time! Thanks to Jack Daw, Tara, Hamelin and Killjoy there's actually a very good chance to encounter undead already in Outcasts so the only real change is you might see more constructs. Frankly most people have a good idea of what their opponent owns and likes to play to begin with so it doesn't tend to be a balance concern outside of paper theory and even then its rather trivial since this game isn't balanced around hard counters, but rather your ability to go for the objectives. I don't believe this game is ever even close to decided at listbuilding unless one player has taken an all around bad list, not just a bad one against his current opponent.

[Seadhna]

Are the Iron Zombies (transmortis students and valedictorian) any good with Leveticus? 

Or maybe there are better models to get for Iron lists

[daniello_s]

Valedictorian is very good - fast Henchwoman with solid punch who could negate Df triggers. I like her as flanker who can do Undercover Entourage pretty well.

Rest of the Iron Zombies are IMO to pricey for what they can offer.

[Cedar]

Valedictorian is solid henchmen but iron zombies are not (except student of sinew if you know you will be facing Ressers). For Iron Levi probably the best pick is Mech Rider, since it offers very good mobility, nice attack(with free card draw and markers) and ability to summon steam arachnids (or gamins, but i really prefer arachnids). Other viable options are: Peacekeeper, Joss, Langston, Teddy, Rouge Necromancy, Soulstone Miners, Large Steam Arachnids, Watcher and probably Hunters (i haven't tried them yet). Plus best model for construct list- Mobile Toolkit! From Outcasts I recommend taking Johan, Lazarus, Vanessa and Librarian. Big beaters (Engine, Ashes and Dust) are viable option if you are going to try to summon multiple abominations (or you know how to use A&D to be a crew tank- seriously, with right setup he is nearly unkillable).

[Freman]

And do people really build their crews with that much concern for their opponent's crew? I build mine firstly to achieve the strats and schemes, and then to support the rest of the crew. I didn't choose Ashes and Dust and Nix against Brewmaster because of his poison, but because Ashes is a pretty good beater, and hard to take out completely, while Nix was a cheap carrier for Scramble and Oathkeeper so it was easy to get off Undercover Entourage. That the two of them, and Hamelin himself, could just ignore a lot of Brewmaster's themed abilities was just a happy coincidence.

Perhaps if Leveticus's minimum damage was raised by one, given that he'll now see minimum damage more often, it'll put him back towards the beater role without causing problems.

[Nukemouse]

I have never tried Hunters with levi, but that's only because in my opinion Hunters are pretty bad. I suppose considering their glass cannon nature they might be decent targets for Rusty's reactivate though, after all the things that could attack them have activated you could reactivate them.

I don't think A&D needs help being unkillable, unless you are up against someone who ignores armor he already is.

I don't think the appropriate fix to Levi if there is going to be one is to return him to his damage dealer state, since that would cause people to resume whining about the same problems. Reva, Seamus and Rasputina already bring similar tricks to him in a damaging area anyway.

[spooky_squirrel]

12 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

The ability to field any number of Undead models (including those outside the Resser faction) with any number of Outcasts.

[redacted bacon bits imagery]

Forestalling the counter-argument "you can take outcasts with ressers as a resser", you can take two as mercenaries. Levi's not limited like that on recruiting undead.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Drat. I had a LONG post I wrote that got eaten. Oh well.

Gist of it. Levi isn't too weak, the errata didn't go to far. Play Levi like you would Seamus, for the most part. Levi is still competitive. Very doubtful wyrd is looking to increase his beating power or further errata his upgrades. Players who based their concept of Levi on being the ultimate beater in the game, and played him for that reason have valid emotional and thematic, though, in my opinion, not mechanical, reasons for disliking the change. The drop in cache was, and I'm speculating, probably in regards to the hollow waifs, as two free activations is a big deal. Assume he has a 5 cache and you have to pay 2 for each waif.

Hopefully ALL book 1 and 2 masters will get new upgrades in a future book and some of the concerns here can be addressed with new upgrades.

 

[Kaos]

The mechanical reason to dislike the change is that he does nothing apart not dying.

He doesn't kill models, he doesn't support his crew.

We already discussed how the extended hiring pool is situational at best.

So what this master is really supposed to be? The ultimate verdict here looks like is "leave him to the shelf and play something else". Meaning the rule change wasn't a good idea after all if made a piece no longer competitive or basically unplayable.

Whatever comes in the next books, unless is some specific Leveticus only upgrade, will not change the issue. Even if they make the strongest and broken outcast henchmen ever, you will fare much better hiring him with another master that has more board presence or support power of Leveticus.

When a change on rules is decided on the direction of making something less powerful is always something delicate since several pieces stand on the line of being broken or unplayable.

[Sordid Strumpet]

Well yeah but thats just like, your opinion man. Basedon the erroneous  assertion that the errata removed his Unmaking attack fro the card altogether and all he has left is his pretty smile. The statement that he no longer kills models is incorrect.

He used to basically be a 6AP master able to do 9-10 damage reliably (if you were willing to chuck an 11+ for one extra damage) and basically ignored cover and almost all common defenses. No set up required thanks to free focusing. Just point at a target and say 'take that off'.

He now does maybe 7 damage reliably, assuming you focus on the first shot and hit moderate, then get two weaks. If you get around cover using his repositioning shenanigans, then maybe he does 8 damage reliably. He does exactly what seamus does (except Seamus stays dead) but at Ca7, ignores armour etc and prevents soul stone usage if he wants to. 

So the whole hubub is that now you have to think a little more when playing him and that he does 1-2 less damage than he used to, so might not kill Howard Langston in one go unless you put a lot of effort in. 

Having to put some thought into positioning to get maximum usage out of a master is hardly a novel idea.

I don't see the problem, at all.

[Sordid Strumpet]

5 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Like stuffed piglets.

 

Yeah.

 

They're undead.

 

As for the counter-argument "you can take outcasts with ressers as a resser", you can take two as mercenaries. Levi's not limited like that on recruiting undead.

He can't hire Gremlin models.

[spooky_squirrel]

2 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

He can't hire Gremlin models.

Sure enough, it explicitly says non-Gremlin Faction. I'll correct my fatigue-induced bit of giggles above.

[Freman]

Pale Rider is Undead for Guild.

[Surrealistik]

No longer worth running competitively given better masters like Nellie, Sonnia, Perdita, McCabe, Ramos, etc

Again, I think removing Rat Engine alone probably would have been enough, or at a minimum, they should have seen how Levi panned out after that change before further cuddles.

[Sordid Strumpet]

20 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

No longer worth running competitively given better masters like Nellie, Sonnia, Perdita, McCabe, Ramos, etc

Again, I think removing Rat Engine alone probably would have been enough, or at a minimum, they should have seen how Levi panned out after that change before further cuddles.

Ah yes, Perdita - the most famous outcast master of all

[Surrealistik]

1 minute ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Ah yes, Perdita - the most famous outcast master of all

Probably the closest thing to my formerly beloved Levy; also the only Outcast master I really cared for. Good night sweet prince; was fun while it lasted.

[daniello_s]

2 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

He now does maybe 7 damage reliably, assuming you focus on the first shot and hit moderate, then get two weaks. If you get around cover using his repositioning shenanigans, then maybe he does 8 damage reliably. 

Reliable you should expect 5-6 of damage as ypu must assume your target is at least in soft cover and you don't want to use your precious SS but rather do 2x focus+attack. If enemy model is in hard cover then we are talking about 4-5 damage.

never assume you'll have clean shots and don't expect this 'legendary' reposition with Waifs will give you upper hand all the time.

[Sordid Strumpet]

 If everyting you might want to target is in soft cover, I think you're doing terrain wrong.

Having said that - just lure the target out with a Belle, then blast it with Levi. Or make an abomination with Alyce somehwere near where you need to be, walk it there, then kill it and put Levi there. If you really need to, stone for a +flip and your damage is at least 7.

You're basically arguing Levi is rubbish because he can't take something off regardless of position every turn without your opponent being able to do anything. No other master could do it as well as Levi can, and if nothing else Levi is still unkillable more or less and gets an absurd hiring pool.

I still see no evidence whatsoever that he is any more than 10-15% worse than he used to be, and that is purely based on the reduction in damage output.

 

[Tris]

22 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Mad Dog brings badly needed 4'' no-cover marker which stays till this action is used again. It is a bit pricey way to work around enemy cover but more reliable than using Watcher I think (although Watcher paired with Lazarus is still scary shooting combo).

But unfortunately his no cover doesn`t work for Leve himself, as it only affect Sh attacks....