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After errata Levi


Jafar

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On outcasts forum, we can find many topics about pre errata Levi :)

Maybe it's time to make one about after errata Levi.

After changes showed by Wyrd, I started to use Levi in different roles, mostly depending on taken upgrades and schemes. Before that he was mostly killing stuff. Now it takes more thinking and deeper plan to use him ;)

Things I do with Levi
- Summon abominations after killing enemy model
This is still nice trick. With :ranged I mostly will use "free focus" to get straight flip if model is in cover. Also will try to aim to kill model with 4 WD (many scheme runners). When I go with :melee I will aim to use focus so I will het straight flip.

- Charge and do 8 dmg to model that cannot prevent it;
I don't like this trick on models with armor or models that can use SS. I use it as finisher. It makes Levi play a little more risky, because If I can charge other model, mostly that model can charge me ;)It's great to finish some enforcers or big minions. With :crowtrigger you can easily bypass HTW with discarding cards. 

- Half WD with correct trigger on :ranged;
If it will work it's great, otherwise I feel like i wasted 1ss on upgrade slot. But when it works, awww sweet :) Attack Howard, use this trigger and see how he lost 6 WD. But mostly that 1ss and upgrade slot can have better use. Probably I will stop using it in future.

- Give slow with :ranged attack to key enemy models so they cannot charge;
I don't care about dmg, I only want to give slow. It's great versus close combat models, but not allowing sniper to take focus, or have enemy model to do only 1 attack is also great.

- Do crazy teleport trick and place key scheme marker or end in enemy deployment zone etc.
In tournament you mostly will know about last round, or when match should end. In that situation you can leave Levi in weird place like middle of board or enemy deployment zone. Mostly people don't think that your master can teleport to abominations, wife, kill it and then still use 3 AP.

I don't think that summoning abominations from scrap is a good idea for Levi. When I expect to see Ramos I may take upgrades only to steal scrap markers. But I don't treat it as main use of Levi (or Rusty).

Do you have any other experience with Levi afer errata? do you got any ideas how to use him?

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41 minutes ago, Jafar said:

- Summon abominations after killing enemy model

Very, very, very dependent on what are you attacking. Models in any kind of cover are now a huge challenge to Levi. Sure you can still kill low wound, low Wp model like most of the scheme runners but be prepared to do 'massive' 6-7 max damage in most of the cases. Errata made shooting-Levi from a scary monster to average-one. Yes, I know what I'm saying. Of course he is brilliant as finisher who kills already seriously wounded models but I would rather expect more from a master whose almost exclusive purpose is damage dealing and he is not a supporter for his crew.

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41 minutes ago, Jafar said:

Charge and do 8 dmg to model that cannot prevent it;

 

This is how I mostly do a damage recently with Levi and summon Abominations. Very risky strategy though so you can't depend on it too much. Having model like Doppelganger in your crew would help a lot ;)

43 minutes ago, Jafar said:

- Half WD with correct trigger on :ranged;

Very tasty but very situational thing. Unless you expect some high-wound models in enemy crew I think it is better to grab Oathkeeper instead. On the other hand if you have Terracotta Warrior with you you can take it and in case if you don't need it any more just swap it to Oathkeeper. I took this upgrade twice recently and haven't used it too much so I think I'll stop using it.

46 minutes ago, Jafar said:

Give slow with :ranged attack to key enemy models so they cannot charge;

Very good trigger especially since his range attack is less reliably now. 

48 minutes ago, Jafar said:

- Do crazy teleport trick and place key scheme marker or end in enemy deployment zone etc

Situational and requires a setup to do this trick. Sometimes it is worthy though. I like doing it and surprise my opponent from time to time :)

As for From Ash upgrade - thanks for reminding me its existence ;) It is such a waste of SS that I don't think I'll ever use it (I used it twice and guess what? I didn't pay off).

 

Generally I still consider Levi as strong master however not due his attack ability but due his hiring pool which allows tailoring his crew to all strategies/schemes.

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1 hour ago, SlackerLM said:

I think that, with the inclusion of Terra Cotta Warrior in Pariah of Iron lists, To the Earth might be less situational. Of course, 2 Oathkeeper rounds might be better...

Thing with To Earth Return is you really need some big-wound  model as a target for this attack to pay of the cost of the upgrade. Masters/Henchmen can easily put you on negative damage flip which makes this trigger very unreliable so effectively you are looking at Enforcers and Minions with at least 7 wounds as possible targets. Now add the fact that if they are in hard cover it will be again a gamble with damage flip.

Overally I think it is something you can add to Levi if you are fancy especially when you take Terracotta Warrior also. 

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Yeah Levi has been somewhat inappropriately Cuddled. His listbuilding trick is rather overvalued, as is his "kill two minions instead of 1 master" trick, his strength came in low but reliable damage. That said his listbuilding is fun, he does get free activations from his waifs and his abomination summoning is very strong against minion heavy lists and those that like 0 actions. Personally i play him towards that goal of replacing enemy models with abominations and occasionally getting a charge in to brutalize something. I personally starting the game with Rusty Alyce and the Desolation Engine. The Deso can be terrifying with rusty's reactivate as it can heal back the damage it takes and both rusty and Levi can provide new abominations for it to reform with, leaving it a constant threat on the board. I like to fill the rest of the crew with models i think do well against the opposing faction or fit the schemes particularly well, especially since i have a large ressurectionist collection.

Peronsally i hope Levi can get something of support in a new upgrade or something, particularly because his "reflect 1 damage" ability and his ability to discard a card to add 1 to it simply don't come up or work well with his card right now. It would be much better if he could hand out this trigger to his other models.

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Don't want to start this subject again but Channel had to be changed as it was a bit too strong as it was before. Personally I was hoping it will allow Levi to add :+fate to attack OR damage at the cost of 2 wounds which would make him still quite reliable in hitting models in cover and deadly for models caught in the open. 

At the moment his Unmaking attack is not that scary at all especially when you compare him to i.e. Reva who doesn't care about cover, engagement, has bigger range and as Levi can negate most of the defenses. 

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Wyrd opened that bag of worms, not you. Besides in a thread about playing him after the errata the errata is sure to come up. Levi should also be thought of as somewhat like Seamus, considering he has access to some degree of similar tools to him. I think they play more similarly than Levi and Reva.

Speaking of which, Belles can be taken by Levi and have obvious synergy with Montresor and the Desolation Engine. They can also help to bring enemy models out of cover for Levi to charge or just more easily hit. As an Outcast Leveticus also gets cheaper access to Aionus, who could give the Belles fast for not particularly high cards, helping you maneuver them or get more lures off, though I'm not sure Aionus is worthwhile for that, are there any low cost models Pariah of Bone or Iron can get that would really benefit from fast and don't normally have access to it?

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@daniello_s I never saw too much SS use to put me in :-fate flip for dmg, but I must have that in mind. (different meta, different things). I want to see what my opponent will do after I do this against his Sonia :) maybe that will save me from blasts. 

@Nukemouse Any cheap scheme runner. Necropunk, Crooligan, Winged plague,

Let's focus on new tricks or things that you do with Lebi now, not on errata or why, who, what, when :)

Also have anyone used Draugr? With his 0 AP give soulbound upgrade to ranged model and ignore cover (that models gets :+fate to attack flips).

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9 hours ago, Jafar said:


Also have anyone used Draugr? With his 0 AP give soulbound upgrade to ranged model and ignore cover (that models gets :+fate to attack flips).

Draugr Action can give Soulbound to non-leader non-peon model, so no fun for Levi, but Alyce and Lazarus are great targets for this action.

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Yeah. I've basically stopped playing Levi. I think the large hiring pool is a bit overrated as he can hire Outcasts only and still have a fine crew. And once on the board, it feels like he doesn't have a purpose anymore. He is not good at anything. :(

I think Wyrd messed this one up.

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2 hours ago, LulleK said:

Yeah. I've basically stopped playing Levi. I think the large hiring pool is a bit overrated as he can hire Outcasts only and still have a fine crew. And once on the board, it feels like he doesn't have a purpose anymore. He is not good at anything. :(

I think Wyrd messed this one up.

It is not that bad :) 

 

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I should have asked the Levi player at a tourney i went to today what his list was! Don't think he won his levi game, but could have got some new suggestions for this thread.

Not exactly Levi exclusive, but has anyone tried using the hodgepodge emissary to give an upgrade to Ashes and Dust? Monkeys Paw could let you reactivate ashes and dust which would be pretty scary or dont mind me so that he can fulfill his role of "unstoppable scheme runner" even further! The large number of Abominations Levi crews can make would also give Hodgepodge plenty of targets to push and drop scheme markers with, providing pretty deadly setup potential. The + flips to minions could work quite well with many of the cheap constructs, undead or abominations Levi tends to bring as support for his anchors. Hodgepodge Emissary with some flesh constructs could make for great anchor potential at a rather low cost, leaving room for hordes of minions the hodgepodge could buff, plus flesh constructs have enough HP not to be bothered by Levi randomizing and hitting them, so they could actually use the actions he gives them.

I don't like the changes but I'm not giving up on him yet! I just have so many new models to play with there's no time for Levi.

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8 minutes ago, Nukemouse said:

Not exactly Levi exclusive, but has anyone tried using the hodgepodge emissary to give an upgrade to Ashes and Dust? Monkeys Paw could let you reactivate ashes and dust which would be pretty scary or dont mind me so that he can fulfill his role of "unstoppable scheme runner" even further!

A&D can't get any conditions so it won't work I'm afraid.

I haven't tried Emissary with Levi yet as I'm not really sold to the general Conflux at the moment (maybe with Belles to give them :+fate for Lure/Undress actions) and Levi's Conflux is good for Rider list only.

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1 minute ago, daniello_s said:

A&D can't get any conditions so it won't work I'm afraid.

I haven't tried Emissary with Levi yet as I'm not really sold to the general Conflux at the moment (maybe with Belles to give them :+fate for Lure/Undress actions) and Levi's Conflux is good for Rider list only.

I could definitely see Belles using it, but i think Flesh Constructs will be one of the big things to use alongside this, thanks to their strong triggers and ceaseless advance will easily trigger thanks to abomination simple duels, access to a large pool of terrifying models, hodgepodge causing discard or slow on his attack and the high incentive for foes to cheat against levi's difficult to mitigate attacks.

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You made me extremely sad. I purchased a Leveticus box as my first crew since I liked the unique yo-yo summoning playstyle and cannot be done anymore?

I see for 2 damages he get to earn focused, so basically it's just a once off ability. I'm not sure if he can still wreck face like he is supposed to do.

Also I do not understand well the waif thing.

He can die to summon a waif, in his LoS.

So he hits someone, die to summon a waif in 6" to him and then the waif get autokilled since is in the middle of the fray.

How do this work?

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9 minutes ago, Kaos said:

You made me extremely sad. I purchased a Leveticus box as my first crew since I liked the unique yo-yo summoning playstyle and cannot be done anymore?

I see for 2 damages he get to earn focused, so basically it's just a once off ability. I'm not sure if he can still wreck face like he is supposed to do.

Also I do not understand well the waif thing.

He can die to summon a waif, in his LoS.

So he hits someone, die to summon a waif in 6" to him and then the waif get autokilled since is in the middle of the fray.

How do this work?

He hits someone at range and summons a waif within his own LoS but behind dense terrain or something so the enemy doesn't have LoS. If they move/push to see it you move the waif since it gets a slow activation. They're also fairly hard to take out, especially if you place them in cover. It gets riskier if you charged him so he's close to something big and unactivated but since he gets two waifs for free he starts at an activation advantage against most masters. 

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So if I get this right:

-Activate my stuff

-Activate Levi last

-Charge the big guy

-Stabbity stab

-Suicide for waif

-Move waif the hell out of there (like spend all the actions walking in a more suitable place)

Should be able to activate waif just after Levi without any other activation in between since I'm outnumbering the enemy.

Is it correct?

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2 minutes ago, Kaos said:

So if I get this right:

-Activate my stuff

-Activate Levi last

-Charge the big guy

-Stabbity stab

-Suicide for waif

-Move waif the hell out of there (like spend all the actions walking in a more suitable place)

Should be able to activate waif just after Levi without any other activation in between since I'm outnumbering the enemy.

Is it correct?

That happens mostly only on turn 1. On other turns you mostly really really need to win initiative and activate Levi early as otherwise opponent will attack him and make him buried or simple remove threatened model out of Levi's reach. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

And accumulated Tournament results.

 

And internal Wyrd Testing.

 

Let's not make this out that that the ONLY reason Wyrd changed anything was accumulated complaints. There are numerous models, Austringers, Belles and the Mechanical Rider to name some specific ones, that have been as complained about for as long or longer and as much if not more vociferously and they haven't changed, because:

 

Accumulated tournament results don't showcase a pressing issue.

 

Justin didn't agree.

 

How Aaron comes down on the issues is another matter. His first errata opportunity was cautious, so it will remain to be seen in January(ish) what his thoughts are. 

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34 minutes ago, SlackerLM said:

Levi's "other utilities" are his crew building combinations. His card and upgrades give him one thing to do, finish off models. His other mechanic, summoning is dependent on him killing models.

The errata to him was in response to people complaining about him and nothing more.

Basically we have master with one purpose- to have large hiring pool. 

He is weak now. Not super weak, but he is below average. If his Unmaking action wouldn't have projectile icon levi would serve his damage dealer role better. Also, To the Earth Return should not require to flip or cheat moderate or severe damage, since it's useless now. I think that this upgrade and From Ash need rework to allow levi to serve multiple purposes, or at least to give him more options how to play. Maybe something like this:

To the Earth return (1 SS):

This Model gains following Trigger to its Unmaking Action:

Tome Ram: Unnatural Wasting: After damaging, the target gains following condition for the rest of the game: "Necrotic pollution- after this model ends it's activation, this model and all friendly models within Pulse 2 must pass TN 11 DF duel or suffer 2 damage".

 

From Ash(3SS):

This model gains following Tactical Actions:

(1) Transfigure (Ca 7 Tome / TN: * / Rg: 6)- Name a Minion model with both Construct and Undead Characteristic. The TN of this action is 10 Tome Crow plus soulstone cost of the named model. Summon named model in base contact with target friendly model with Construct or Undead Characteristic, then sacrifice that model. Summoned model suffers damage equal half of its Wounds, which may not be reduced.

(0) Bound to this world (Ca 5 / TN: 8/ Rg: 6)- Discard a card. Target friendly model with both Construct and Undead Characteristic gains one of the following conditions:

        Carrier: when this model is killed, summon an Abomination into base contact with it before it is removed. This model does not drop Corpse or Scrap Markers when it is killed. This condition lasts for the rest of the game.

        Ashes to ashes: This model adds +Crow to it's final duels total. This condition lasts for the rest of the game.

        Dust to dust: Once per turn, when this model is killed or sacrificed by enemy action, it may perform  (0) or (1) AP action. If this model is healed as a result of this action, don't kill or sacrifice this model. This condition lasts until end of turn.

        Fatigue: Enemy models within Aura 6 gain - to all simple duels except Horror duels. This condition lasts until end of turn.

       

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My concern about the errata is making him losing his role. If you have beatstick, something with nothing more than raw damage output, and you change it to lower his damage output in a drastic manner, then you have a useless model. It basically fail to do what is designed to do.

When I look at the old card and the new card I see not only is his ability was changed drastically but also the soul stone cache and this is really looks like a over modification.

Taking a piece and making him weaker AND more expensive to play unless is still a top model, is really overkill.

His playstyle clearly enough was about taking damage, die and come back. This mechanic was changed since he can't now trigger his main ability multiple time, so the game plan need to change as well. The bad thing is he got nothing else to make up for his loss (usually in the design process if you change something you give it something else to make up for what is was changed) and compel players to find new strategies.

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