Asami List Theoryfaux

[tomjoad]

I can't vouch for Asami lists, but I think Wandering River Yu should make a comeback in GG2017. Lots of scheme marker related schemes, and Mighty Gust can set up Claim Jump easier than it could Convict Labor.

[qoob]

15 hours ago, tomjoad said:

With the Terracotta along, you can also retain the flexibility Yu is accustomed to getting from Shenlong. Being able to copy Asami's 6" place 0 action is even a fair tradeoff for losing Shenlong's (incredibly good) 0 options.

The (0) copy is a nice thing! Totally forgot that! Thanks!

[InvokeChaos]

Something I always forget to account for is that Yu is walk 7"... with Asami's pull you-push me, and said 0, they both can cover TREMENDOUS ground.  I would probably take him with fermented river or low river though, for the utility. He can actually become quite a threat with either of those or high river, even. Asami doesn't need movement trick as much, and fast is good, but it takes two actions to give it out. With Asami's AP1 charge for oni, she's already extremely efficient and one yokai can complete claim jump in a turn, so it WRS feels less needed.

But removing conditions, healing asami from the pings, or having a model that on average is +flip to damage, ignoring triggers and giving slow... that seems pretty awesome. Maybe not worth 11pts, but I always take a terracotta now with the wonder weasel, so...

What are people's thoughts on bringing in a performer into her lists? Being able to lure models closer to her summons for charging, and pop scheme markers, seems really solid with Asami. And Asami can pull the performer along or hand out focus as necessary.

[tomjoad]

The problem with Yu taking Fermented or High River Style outside of a Shenlong crew is there's no way to get or keep poison and burning on him. Defensive is possible by spending an AP and a card, but Low River is mostly effective even without the condition. Wandering River, though, I really like because 1) it lets you love scheme markers to Asami so that she can heal without having to walk and 2) marker manipulation looks like it will be far more valuable in GG2017 than it was in '16, so there should be a lot of points in that avenue of attack.

[scarlett fever]

I'm wary of taking Low River Yu outside of Shen/Terracotta simply because his healing/condition removal also adds a condition (slow, poison, burning) which makes it a bit of a pain. If you're just healing that's fine, just add and remove slow, but if you're trying to get rid of paralyse or something nastier you've got to swap it for one of those three.

[mythicFOX]

I don't think Yu is going to give us much we don't already have in an Asami list.  We already have Heavenly Design and Tengu available to add/remove markers at will.  

I think he's generally going to be worse than the Emissary most of the time, Emissary giving out the push & fast more easily but also having impressive damage output and being cheaper. 

Unless I'm missing something?

[qoob]

27 minutes ago, mythicFOX said:

I don't think Yu is going to give us much we don't already have in an Asami list.  We already have Heavenly Design and Tengu available to add/remove markers at will.  

I think he's generally going to be worse than the Emissary most of the time, Emissary giving out the push & fast more easily but also having impressive damage output and being cheaper. 

Unless I'm missing something?

This.

11 Points is too much for Asami. Do you really need the 6" place copy? I don't think so. The only thing is the marker push with Wandering River Style but do we really need this? It's too situational imo. And he has much less offensive potential than the Emissary or Bettari.

 As already stated, give the Yokai the poison condition and you can place him twice a turn...easy scheme marker placement.

I've tried the Emissary with Asami in yesterdays test game and I was surprised how good he actually is in this crew. The fast push is so good and even the shadow conflux upgrade can help you in some situations.

Have to test him a little more though.

[mythicFOX]

Yeah he's part of my core crew now.

The power to output decent Ca damage without charging covers a decent gap in the crew.  The fast push on Bettari into her Recall Training turn can lead to some sick things;  (1) charge a target, get your two attacks from the charge on [+] flips. If you kill the target you then have 2AP remaining to charge again, or even walk back to Asami and (1) charge something else.  

Emissary also makes a good target for Terracotta Warrior's; Mold of the Other. Being 10 Wd, and combining HtK with the ability to flat out ignore one enemy hit makes him a very tough prospect to chew through. Most things will need an absolute minimum of 4 hits to kill him, probably more.

[newsun]

I'm agreeing on Yu not being that great. I had wanted him to heal and get Asami up far for early charges with Yokai, though using her place is enough most of the time. Plus the freedom of 11pts is huge.

I'm think having a couple of ranged pieces really improve her list.

Yasunori is a great lurker since he can hang back and then when needed walk up and charge for a very long that range.

I'm mixed on Lovelace as two arcane card draws is sick, though she does not threaten that much damage. She is a decent finisher being able to ignore randomizing.

[qoob]

3 hours ago, newsun said:

I'm agreeing on Yu not being that great. I had wanted him to heal and get Asami up far for early charges with Yokai, though using her place is enough most of the time. Plus the freedom of 11pts is huge.

I'm think having a couple of ranged pieces really improve her list.

Yasunori is a great lurker since he can hang back and then when needed walk up and charge for a very long that range.

I'm mixed on Lovelace as two arcane card draws is sick, though she does not threaten that much damage. She is a decent finisher being able to ignore randomizing.

Yep I agree, double Rush of Magic is huge. I don't understand why people think she does not do much damage. Ca 6 is pretty good and she does not randomize. You even get a corpse marker on moderate and severe. Focus, shoot is an option. 

[newsun]

She is consistent, just no spike at moderate or severe. Same way yamaziko is. Her melee while only a 5 is good with being able to choose df or wp.

[tomjoad]

I would greatly prefer a 3/3/4 track than, say, the 2/3/6 on Ohaguro (maybe this is a bad example, because Ohaguro can always cheat, but I prefer weak damage 3 to almost anything else for moderate and severe). I really need to paint my Anna...

[InvokeChaos]

My original core with hannah and anna, hannah was the replacement for the Emissary. Not that the emissary wasn't fantastic... he absolutely was. But even with mold of the other, my opponents seemed to see the big dragon and go "that's dying ASAP." 

But then I moved to Yasunori (as I said in an earlier post)... but I've considered going back to the Emissary.  The shadow conflux is pretty fantastic strangely.  I like it mostly for my obsidian oni who tend to hang back and rain fire.

To the Yu commentary, I do by and large agree that his points are better spent elsewhere (like Yasunori!) but I would remind that we have access to easy poison in the Akaname and easy burning from the Wonder Weasel to enable both of the other upgrades. Low River Style can indeed be a bit wonky, but I will trade a poison on my Yokai for no slow after summoning all day long.  And any condition is better than paralyze. Not lobbying that he's some auto-take, but I don't think he's an auto-don't take either. I'd really like to check out him being support style with the terracotta and wonder weasel... that seems pretty solid, and as I take the terraweasel as part of my core anyways, Yu becomes a perpetual source of upgrade swapping.

Probably too janky though... *goes back to Chiaki + Yasunori*

[whodares]

I was looking at getting a summoning master and I'm already heavily invested into the Ten Thunders. Naturally I would look at Asami. Reading this thread has shed some light on how she works, but I still have a couple of questions:

1. Does she have a super-high summon with Tannen the way Dreamer can summon Teddy? I don't think so, but I can always be mistaken.
2. How do you get your corpse/scrap markers down? I've read somebody said to summon a Yokai Turn 1, but seems strange as sacrificed models don't drop markers iirc?
3. I suck with Shenlong as doing schemes is my weakest part of this game. Is Asami still a good master for me?
4. How annoying is the Flicker mechanic? Newly-summoned models only last for the turn, unless you have corpse/scrap markers closeby. Yokai can get up to +2 Flicker if summoned (?) so he kind of bypasses this.

Thanks for the answers

[tomjoad]

1 hour ago, whodares said:

I was looking at getting a summoning master and I'm already heavily invested into the Ten Thunders. Naturally I would look at Asami. Reading this thread has shed some light on how she works, but I still have a couple of questions:

1. Does she have a super-high summon with Tannen the way Dreamer can summon Teddy? I don't think so, but I can always be mistaken.
2. How do you get your corpse/scrap markers down? I've read somebody said to summon a Yokai Turn 1, but seems strange as sacrificed models don't drop markers iirc?
3. I suck with Shenlong as doing schemes is my weakest part of this game. Is Asami still a good master for me?
4. How annoying is the Flicker mechanic? Newly-summoned models only last for the turn, unless you have corpse/scrap markers closeby. Yokai can get up to +2 Flicker if summoned (?) so he kind of bypasses this.

Thanks for the answers

1. Highest is Jorogumo; Tannen is good in general, but I wouldn't take him just for his  boosting.

2. Kill your enemies; markers will follow. Yokai and Ohaguro also have triggers on their melee attacks that leave corpse markers behind, and Obsidian Oni have a trigger to drop scrap.

3. Asami wants to murder. My experience is that she plays entirely opposite of Shenlong, aside that both of them want to be kind of front-line.

4. Flicker isn't annoying. Just know that it's going to happen, don't summon stuff that won't survive unless you have a plan for what that model is doing. Remember they can still charge while Slow and they can leave scheme markers behind when they sacrifice.

[newsun]

I know there are cases when summoning something other than a Yokai make sense, but this is the first model where I might pick up a second box with, as it's easy to get more than three on the table and they're super useful in many situations. They are guaranteed around for two turns unless you or your opponent makes them go away.

[qoob]

6 hours ago, newsun said:

I know there are cases when summoning something other than a Yokai make sense, but this is the first model where I might pick up a second box with, as it's easy to get more than three on the table and they're super useful in many situations. They are guaranteed around for two turns unless you or your opponent makes them go away.

Yep. Exactly. The yokai and Obsidian Oni are great for their costs. I think that Yokai have more offensive potential than Jorogumo imo. So why spending a 13? Jorogumo are nice to block LoS or tanking but the price is too high. 

 

[whodares]

47 minutes ago, qoob said:

Yep. Exactly. The yokai and Obsidian Oni are great for their costs. I think that Yokai have more offensive potential than Jorogumo imo. So why spending a 13? Jorogumo are nice to block LoS or tanking but the price is too high. 

 

Why would you say a yokai has more offensive potential than a Jorogumo? I get it that their charge can be better with the + on it, but 1 mi and higher damage track and a way higher durability makes the Jorogumo a higher priority for me. Then again I haven't played Asami yet and I'm looking for advice here, so I'm probably not seeing something.

 

I just like the fact that you can throw a Jorogumo un the middle of their crew and they probably need 2-3 activations to kill it, which makes it a lot better than an Oni or Yokai imo.

[OneLittleThunder]

I played a game the other night in which I used a Guild Pathfinder to good effect by summoning Clockwork Traps as a cheap way to give Ohaguro Bettari extra movement. (Not that the traps aren't often useful in and of themselves.) And that got me thinking...what if we add Toshiro with Command the Graves to the mix? Stack summoning atop summoning?

Doing it just for Black Betty's movement shenanigans probably isn't worth it, but in my case, I know that I can never seem to get high Masks when I really need a summons. Toshiro adds two more suits that I can use to summon, and while his summons do use up Corpse/Scrap markers that could be used to make Asami's models last longer, they also drop them when they die.

It's probably too much of a good thing to actually work, but I feel like I want to at least put it on the table a few times and see what happens.

[qoob]

5 hours ago, whodares said:

Why would you say a yokai has more offensive potential than a Jorogumo? I get it that their charge can be better with the + on it, but 1 mi and higher damage track and a way higher durability makes the Jorogumo a higher priority for me. Then again I haven't played Asami yet and I'm looking for advice here, so I'm probably not seeing something.

 

I just like the fact that you can throw a Jorogumo un the middle of their crew and they probably need 2-3 activations to kill it, which makes it a lot better than an Oni or Yokai imo.

The  on Ml 5 is worth a lot on a charging Yokai. So you have your 9 of  against a 13 of . Then you have all that nice triggers. Flay? Easy if you have Bettari with you. Soul Burn? Easy with a new summoned Yokai. Even the other 2 triggers are great. If you manage to hit the  it's a nice one. 

Jorogumo has a range of 3" and a higher dmg track, alright. But you have to hit first before you deal some damage. Statistically seen it's easier to hit someone with a  even if that means min. dmg 2.

And imo it's not worth the 13 of any suit for a Jorogumo summon in most cases. 

[whodares]

2 hours ago, qoob said:

The  on Ml 5 is worth a lot on a charging Yokai. So you have your 9 of  against a 13 of . Then you have all that nice triggers. Flay? Easy if you have Bettari with you. Soul Burn? Easy with a new summoned Yokai. Even the other 2 triggers are great. If you manage to hit the  it's a nice one. 

Jorogumo has a range of 3" and a higher dmg track, alright. But you have to hit first before you deal some damage. Statistically seen it's easier to hit someone with a  even if that means min. dmg 2.

And imo it's not worth the 13 of any suit for a Jorogumo summon in most cases. 

I agree with you that Yokai has a higher chance of damaging.

However, a Yokai goes down that same turn whereas a Jorogumo with more than 1 Flicker will stay even into the next turn. This means you can get activation control into the next turn, which is something I value quite a bit. You can summon a Yokai that next turn and have 2 nice damage dealers of which one is tanky and can hand out Poison +3.

 

I do not find that Jorogumo loses when it comes to triggers vs Yokai. If you can get a  you get a + for the damage track, which means you can probably cheat the damage. Being able to do that, while having "Eat Your Fill" can basicly nullify any progress your opponent made on it.

Then there is the giant area the Jorogumo covers with his big base and 3" range, so Asami can stand behind it and just summon all the Yokai she wants without being scared of getting attacked.

 

If I get the choice of summoning a +2 Flicker Jorogumo or a +3 Flicker (Fickle passive) Yokai, I will almost always go for the Jorogumo unless I'm in my last turn.

 

Can the 13 be used for something else? Yeah sure. You'll probably end up cheating a card anyways, so you might as well summon the biggest hindrance to whatever you opponent wants to do.

Just to check, you can stone for the suit, right? If you can, Yokai might not be an insta-cheat, but still has a high chance of needing a cheated card.

[tomjoad]

Jorogumo's huge range of effect (about an 8" diameter circle covers a lot of table) is a real serious thing, so I would never write them off. However, the Yokai is more likely to hit, which is the most important thing for offensive models, and they have a ton of useful triggers. Plus, the Jorogumo's durability is less valuable when summoning because Flicker still puts a limit on their life spans over the first few turns.

[newsun]

Jorogumo do have their benefits, though unless I get extra flicker or need the huge engagement range I'd rather get the yokai who with a stone has good chance to flip and not require the cheat.

 

With that said each oni offers something different. Summon accordingly. Turn one is pretty guaranteed going to be yokai because of extra flicker, often turn two. Past that summons are based only on if they advance the mission. Asami's ap might be needed to do something else.

[Somnicide]

I've played several games with her now and Yokai are almost always a better choice than jorogumo. A 13 is so much more useful than bringing a model built for resilience in on a Flicker timer. 

Sure you can add with corpse/scrap markers but the same can be said for the yokai who can use them for other shenanigans so that's a wash.

Now there are definitely times they are the right choice - if you need to engage a bunch of models or block los or a lane for instance. But in the first games all 13s were earmarked for jorogumo but now it tends to be a panic cast or a specific mission more than anything whereas a 9 is almost always becoming a yokai.

It hurts to have no 11/12 options.

[skoatz]

28 minutes ago, Somnicide said:

I've played several games with her now and Yokai are almost always a better choice than jorogumo. A 13 is so much more useful than bringing a model built for resilience in on a Flicker timer. 

Sure you can add with corpse/scrap markers but the same can be said for the yokai who can use them for other shenanigans so that's a wash.

Now there are definitely times they are the right choice - if you need to engage a bunch of models or block los or a lane for instance. But in the first games all 13s were earmarked for jorogumo but now it tends to be a panic cast or a specific mission more than anything whereas a 9 is almost always becoming a yokai.

It hurts to have no 11/12 options.

Yeah I'm beginning to think that Jorogumo are somewhat of a trap with Asami.  I found I was summoning in Jorogumo, but then I would have no hand to support the freshly summoned Jorogumo, and it would do nothing before flickering out.  I want to try a game where I focus on summoning in Yokai (reserving Jorogumo for the corner cases you listed).

I'm hoping that the next book has a couple of oni to fill in the 11/12 ss summons.