Rate Crews in Tier 2.0

[Ludvig]

He doesn't need to kill you that badly in a pool where you can't score a single point off his crew. 

He's not as alpha-strikey as just insanely outlasting. Plus the bleeding disease starts to get kinda scary when you're up to blight 8 or something. 

[Cedar]

I play Hamelin as my main master and I found that he is either super strong against certain masters and super weak against others. He has advantage over almost any non-summoner due to lot of activations, Obeys, Pipes and preventing enemy charges, which is great advantage against any assassin master(well, maybe not against Victorias unless you hire Anna to prevent place effects), but his rats are weak and not so useful again any master who can summon something to fight (like Ramos, Molly and Kirai) can easily beat you. His damage is very, VERY irregular, since he relies only on Obey and Bleeding Diesease and power level of these attacks depends on enemy models or Blight condition respectively.

I hope that in new book he'll gain some new reliable source of Blight( like Nihillist version of Rafkin or Sebastian) which would increase his damage potential and mitigate some of his flaws.   

[Freman]

I like Rat Kings, Ml5 with built in positive flips is okay given that (provided you get a few crows) Hamelin and the Wretch can turn them out with reasonable regularity. 1AP charges against blighted models combines well with Pipes (with the plague) and Hamelin's obey. I still haven't managed to get all five on the table, but I did manage three one game. He's not a Ramos or Nicodem, but he gets by.

Of course I've only won one game with him, but my opponents are all very good.

[Cedar]

Unfortunately Rat Kings are not very good minions compared to other models within same price range. Wokou riders (who are nothing spectacular) have better attack and are more durable than Kings, same goes for Shastar Guards, Iluminated, Thralls, Hanged, Jorogumo etc. Their stats are low and their only advantages are ability to summon other models and (0) action. I think that they have cost of 8 because 4 rats or rat and rat catcher have same cost, altgough their stats are more close to 6 ss model.

[Ludvig]

37 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Unfortunately Rat Kings are not very good minions compared to other models within same price range. Wokou riders (who are nothing spectacular) have better attack and are more durable than Kings, same goes for Shastar Guards, Iluminated, Thralls, Hanged, Jorogumo etc. Their stats are low and their only advantages are ability to summon other models and (0) action. I think that they have cost of 8 because 4 rats or rat and rat catcher have same cost, altgough their stats are more close to 6 ss model.

You do get them as kind of an afterthought from the rat engine designed to waste activations  With those little kids who can summon rats by attacking friendlies you can get a silly amount of extra activations. I'm not sure how viable they are as hires.

[Ludvig]

In either case I guess Hamelin might not be top tier material. 

[Cedar]

 

3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

In either case I guess Hamelin might not be top tier material. 

In gg 17 he is more powerful than he was before, but you need mulitiple high ss models to make him work. For me he is in top 3 Outcast masters with Jack and Levi. If he gets more reliable source of damage somehow (new upgrade maybe) he would be among top tier.

[Ludvig]

Just now, Cedar said:

 

In gg 17 he is more powerful than he was before, but you need mulitiple high ss models to make him work. For me he is in top 3 Outcast masters with Jack and Levi. If he gets more reliable source of damage somehow (new upgrade maybe) he would be among top tier.

Not everyone should have high damage. Use obeys on your/your opponents high damage models? Besides, obeys are always powerful since you can use them as an automatic paralyze if your crew has any terrifying models. 

[Starrius]

with the amount of positioning that seems to be needed for GG17 I've started taking more and more models that can screw with this.

 

I play NB and finding minions such as bunraku to be really good for getting models out of zones they need to be in, so masters with obey seem to be definitely looking stronger for schemes and strats.  obey is great for paralysing too as @Ludvig has stated.

[Cedar]

50 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Not everyone should have high damage. Use obeys on your/your opponents high damage models? Besides, obeys are always powerful since you can use them as an automatic paralyze if your crew has any terrifying models. 

Well I agree that due to his utility he shouldn't be to deal large amount of damage, but some improvement in this aspect would be nice.

[psychogeek123]

7 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Well I agree that due to his utility he shouldn't be to deal large amount of damage, but some improvement in this aspect would be nice.

Have you ever tried to play the blight game? You can do stupid amounts of damage over the course of a game with it. By turn 2-3 I can have 1-3 models stacked up with blight enough to make even the stolen a bit dangerous. By turn 4-5 I can usually blow any model up with 1-2 attacks. This is all without dedicated all my resources to stacking and exploiting the blight condition.

[Starrius]

2 minutes ago, psychogeek said:

Have you ever tried to play the blight game? You can do stupid amounts of damage over the course of a game with it. By turn 2-3 I can have 1-3 models stacked up with blight enough to make even the stolen a bit dangerous. By turn 4-5 I can usually blow any model up with 1-2 attacks. This is all without dedicated all my resources to stacking and exploiting the blight condition.

what are you using in a blight centric list?

[Mason]

I usually take The Plague and use the Decaying trigger to take people with Blight T1. By the time T3 rolls around, they've got a few more points on them, and with a rat bite here or there and the aura on stolen, you can really start to tear things up with Hamelin.

[Tris]

On 15.11.2016 at 9:34 AM, Adran said:

I've not seen anyone using her yet.

But just for context, here are the rest of my tier 3 (out of 7) picks

3rd  Sonnia, Molly, Ramos, Colette, Jack, Viks, Ulix, Pandora, Lynch.

I'm happy with the company she is keeping at the moment. 

 

As I said, My list is in the other thread, but for completeness sake this is it

Top - Kirai, levi

2nd Marcus, Lileth, Dreamer, McCabe

3rd Sonnia, Molly, Ramos, Colette, Jack, Viks, Ulix, Pandora, Lynch

4th McMorning (guild) Perdita Rasputina,  Kaeris, Seamus, Yan Lo, Collodi, Sommer, Wong, Ophelia

5th Justice, Nicodem, McMorning (resser),  Zoraida, Von shill, Misaki

6th, Hoffman, Tara, mei Feng, brewmaster, Hamlin, 

7th Ironside, Lucius. 

What`s the base of your tier list here? - local meta, personal feelings about the masters?

Just curious.

And are you aware that there are several masters missing?

[Cedar]

2 hours ago, psychogeek said:

Have you ever tried to play the blight game? You can do stupid amounts of damage over the course of a game with it. By turn 2-3 I can have 1-3 models stacked up with blight enough to make even the stolen a bit dangerous. By turn 4-5 I can usually blow any model up with 1-2 attacks. This is all without dedicated all my resources to stacking and exploiting the blight condition.

I play blight centred list a lot, but there are only few reliable sources of blight and I'd like to see few more (maybe some thematic beater for Hamelin or some models with ranged attack with taint trigger).

[psychogeek123]

1 hour ago, Cedar said:

I play blight centred list a lot, but there are only few reliable sources of blight and I'd like to see few more (maybe some thematic beater for Hamelin or some models with ranged attack with taint trigger).

You could always add in the emissary. between Emmissarry, Nix,  rats, Hamelin, stolen, ratcatchers, and rat kings there are a lot of models to spread blight. Rats can be very effective as the opponents don't like to cheat fate against 0/0/1 damage. Merely having 2-3 rats on a single person can add up since they add +1/+2/+3 Blight on their damage, helped out by their ability to increase their final flip total.

[Tris]

I don't get how anyone could possibly underestimate Hamelin....

He is one of if not the best denial masters with access to all the good outcast models on top of it, just hard to play fast and good at the same time.

[hydranixx]

Agreed. He's one of those masters that can take a while to get proficient with, but once you are, he's an absolute terror to face. Out activating any other crew, complete immunity to Conditions he doesn't want (hello Tail'Em and Accusation), Lures, Obeys, denying Charges. He definitely brings a lot to some scheme pools. 

[Cedar]

1 hour ago, Tris said:

I don't get how anyone could possibly underestimate Hamelin....

He is one of if not the best denial masters with access to all the good outcast models on top of it, just hard to play fast and good at the same time.

I agree, the best way of playing him is to counter enemy schemes/strategy and slowly gaining VP. I found that schemes which earn VP at end of the match (and FFM due to A&D) are best suited for him.

24 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

Agreed. He's one of those masters that can take a while to get proficient with, but once you are, he's an absolute terror to face. Out activating any other crew, complete immunity to Conditions he doesn't want (hello Tail'Em and Accusation), Lures, Obeys, denying Charges. He definitely brings a lot to some scheme pools. 

Recently I played a game with Interference,FFM, Accusation, Mark for Death and Tail'em in the scheme pool. Taking Hamelin, Nix, A&D and creating few rats won me the game, with final score of 10-2 as my opponent was unable to finish any schemes and he gained only one VP from Interference and second one for killing marked Rat King.

[hydranixx]

Yeah... a scheme pool like that is Hamelin's bread and butter... you literally can't score with 3 of those schemes unless Hamelin gives you the Rat King to Mark for Death (as you did), and if you go for Claim Jump you'll only get 1 point before he denies it every subsequent round.

That's Pandora-level NPE haha.

 

[Freman]

I've only played once against Hamelin, quite a few times with him, and always (of course) against better players than myself. I actually quite enjoy it, but I don't try to maximize activations, and tend to play as an Obey master, getting my models to do more stuff over the course of a game. Squeezing 5AP of healing out of a Librarian in one turn can be quite annoying if your opponent is trying to bash one of your beaters. The six inch "you shall not charge" aura also protects any models standing near him making it easier for ranged units to get a few more shots in.

If he had a more destructive damage track he would be an overpowered master in my opinion. As it is I think he's balanced.

[Adran]

17 hours ago, Tris said:

What`s the base of your tier list here? - local meta, personal feelings about the masters?

Just curious.

And are you aware that there are several masters missing?

Hi. My Basis is a combination of what I've seen of them, my playing them, and my read on their abilities. I've played the game since the first book, and spend a lot of time reading posts here on the forum so I have a good handle on what crews  can do, and what is really to intense to count as consistent. . Whilst I might not be the best player or the most active tourenment player, I do have some very good regular opponents in my clubmates, and have faced a lot of the top Uk players at various times. I've played with and against all the masters up to Ripples. 

My list missed a few masters, and in the original thread I discussed them later. I just cut and pasted my old list to try and make my point about the level I placed Nellie. 

Especially in GG17, but probably beforehand, I have probably underestimated Hamilin and his denial capabilities. And despite my worries, the unstoppable Ulix list doesn't appear to be out there. 

[Tris]

@Adran Thank your for the response, now I have several questions:

 

How did you rate the missing masters, Shenlong for example?

Why do you think that Guild McMourning is better than Resser?

I think you underestimate Hamelin a lot ^^

What makes Mei Feng so bad in your eyes?

Why do you rate Ulix so high, I´m under the impression that he doesn`t see any tournament tables?

Whats the bad thing about Nicodem?

 

Where wold you see the affected masters after the recent errata - Lucius, Tara, Misaki, Ironsides?

 

And now about the new masters:

You don´t think that Nellie is that good, especially in GG17?

Why do you see Sandeep lower in the rankings than Marcus?

Asami is one of the most mobile masters out there, I don´t think that she has to play in a bubble as you said. But you did put her on your tier 2-3, so that could be ok.

I don´t get your opinion on Zipp - I read it that you rate him as maybe a 3, but maybe also as a 4-5 if the player using him plays bad? - isn`t every master or model in Malifaux bad, if you can`t play it correctly? What`s your thinking behind that?

 

These are my first thoughts for now, I´m again interested in your reply

 

 

[Adran]

17 hours ago, Tris said:

@Adran Thank your for the response, now I have several questions:

 

It seems I have several answers

Missing Masters and how I rated them in the last thread, as well as the comments I made re- Hamlin and McMorning

 

Quote

Shenlong (4th)

Mah (5th)

Hamlin is probably better that I've put him, but I don't think he lives up to the hype to well. But then I've always thought that about him, even back in first edition. 5th tier perhaps.

 I'd agree that McMorning is the only Duel faction master that really plays significantly differently between the two factions. His Resser version might actually be as good as the guild version if more people stopped focusing on the poison route of it, but when I see a McMorning crew with Transfusion, I normally think I'm going to do well in that game.

[/quote]

Now to answer the questions

I don't Rate Mei because I've never seen her be the best at something. She can do things, but with the exception of her vent steam, she just seems make do. This is probably partially because I loved her 1st edition combo style, and I don't feel that she matches it anymore (the ability to add suits now means that it would have been too strong). I've never played her, or seen her played and not felt that a different master would have been as good. Shes not bad but I haven't ever seen her be the best, except as a specific counter to an opponents crew, and you can't really build counters in this game because you don't know what they are bringing.

Ulix I thought had a hugely powerful summons engine and a great obey effect as well as the ability to have a crew that can scheme amazingly well. I’ve worked out a first turn where he summons a war pig and drops all the required scheme markers to score line in the sand. But you are right, he is very rarely played, and doesn’t seem to be producing the results. I don’t know if this is because he doesn’t interest the top players because it is a boring proscribed turn, or if there is a big flaw they don’t like. My Ulix is assembled and just needs paint o get onto the table, where I might find out for myself.

Nicodem is someone that looks good, but every time I’ve used him, he has been rubbish, and almost every time I have faced him he has not troubled me. I think that his style doesn’t suit my play style to use, but it does very much suit my play style to counter. This really punishes him in my eyes, because he can never get good results in games that include me. Nicodem in a game that doesn’t involve me can certainly do well, but I can imagine that other people can get good results, I’ve heard of them, but I don’t get to watch them to see how they are doing it.

 

Recent Errata.

I have barely read the errata, so its very gut feeling. I’ve not got round to trying them with the new rules, and so its all going to be virtually pure theory from a quick read.

Ironsides – I think the Tome on her defence means she has a chance in a mass brawl, where previously I could never ever make her get Adrenaline to function. Its probably still the case that she is better out of a mass brawl than in it, but I think people will find her less of a problem when they first use her, because the “obvious” play style works a bit. Don’t know if its tier changing.

Misaki – Not sure that the downbust change will make much difference. Making deadly dance a 0 helps the non-killy build quite a bit giving her a nice (0) without having to have stalking bisento. Overall I don’t know that this makes a huge difference to her.

Tara – I’m not sure that the Tara changes are significant. In effect she is now allowed to hire Death Marshalls regardless. Her altered upgrade gives her a decent way to help protect the old void creatures, lowering her hand to keep them alive, but I never saw anyone playing her in that sort of way anyway.

Colette changes actually encourage the player to build a more versatile list, and so whilst she is weaker, you are encouraged to not build a 1 big beater list, which before was often the case. Overall no significant difference. (Although she is a lot worse at Head hunter than she used to be.)

Lucius has had so many changes I’ve not really looked at how they affect him. His problem was that you needed a wide range of good cards, and you were punished badly if you failed, so you couldn’t afford to just hope. So the lowering of the TNs, the increase of eligible targets to include more powerful models are all to his benefit. How far up this have pushed him, I don’t know. I quite like my 7 tier system, and the shape looked quite pretty, so I might have to relegate a few masters to 7^th tier, but the gap between top and bottom is closer now than it was when I wrote the first list (I think) a year ago.

 

And now the new. Firstly, my last post was written shortly after the book was out, and before 2017 so I didn’t take gg17 into account

I Placed Nellie on Tier 3/4, which is pretty strong, certainly on the top half of the masters. My gut feeling is that she might struggle in games where killing is more important than scheming (at least relative to other guild masters), but I’ve yet to get her to check this out. If I’m right then she would struggle to be one of the top tiers.

Zipp – The way I play my masters is that it is really rare for me to want to interact with them anyway. As such I think I would be happy with him at about tier 3. I know several people who thought an insignificant master was very bad, because they do play their master able to fill the gaps in the crew when needed. So its not just a “play him badly”, it’s a whole play style he doesn’t fit.

Sandeep – well I rate Marcus strongly, so Sandeep being worse isn’t that bad.  Sandeep has a lot of choices to make, not just on his turn, but the whole way through the turn regarding when is best to use his actions on other models as well as what he does in his activation. That makes it much easier to make a wrong choice.

Asami – I’ve yet to see her play, and she doesn’t interest me as someone to get so I’ve largely looked at her from the how to stop her view point. Lots of her abilities seem to be position based (her (1) charge is a 4”aura, summoning beyond a 1 turn wonder requires markers close to the point you summon them, she has several auras and requirements for things to happen near her on her upgrades), so that suggests to me she wants her crew to be near enough for them to do things. She still looks strong, but I think I’m most likely to want to face her doing Interference.

I've not got to play as much as I want over the last 6 months so I haven't really been able to test or chaneg my views from my original post in this thread

[Tris]

Thanks again

So, one big question I forgot to ask - what`s the defining factor of a top tier master for you? What makes a master good or bad?

 

I think that`s the fundamental question to understand personal tier lists, and I forgot to ask that completely until now^^