M&SU Hoffman question

[Bazlord_Prime]

Hey all!

I'm picking up an old metal Hoffman crew from a mate, and I'm keen to figure out the intricacies of the man!

So, his card (and Ryle's) have "M&SU" in their characteristics. I don't have any other Guild (or Arcanist) models, so i don't know whether this has any in-game effects?  I can see that Ryle might get hired into an Arcanist M&SU list somehow, but what does it do for Hoffman?

Cheers!

 

[Cinnamon Bear]

Ryle can't be hired into M&SU, but he can be stolen by Leveticus. 

The only M&SU synergy you are likely to get with Hoffman and Ryle is bringing Johan into the crew as a merc. 

[greenstuff_gav]

Johan can give nearby friendly M&SU a heal and i think gets some bonus from being around 'em but don't have his card to hand!

[Jinn]

Johan gets  to attack flips while he's within 3" of a friendly M&SU model as well as a 2-action to heal all M&SU within 6" (I think it's 6") which includes him. The  flip is pretty good with his flurry. The synergy with M&SU makes him really good with Arcanists and Hoffman and he is already good enough to be hired as a merc.

[Bazlord_Prime]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

Johan gets  to attack flips while he's within 3" of a friendly M&SU model as well as a 2-action to heal all M&SU within 6" (I think it's 6") which includes him. The  flip is pretty good with his flurry. The synergy with M&SU makes him really good with Arcanists and Hoffman and he is already good enough to be hired as a merc.

Too bad he's not a Construct as well though...  MWAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!  

 

[4thstringer]

I use Johan with Nellie often and I'm looking forward to a ryle/Johan turf war team.

[Surrealistik]

10 hours ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Too bad he's not a Construct as well though...  MWAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!  

 

I really wish there was an upgrade for Hoffman where he could grant the Construct trait to a model; 'Mechanical Enhancements' or some shit.

[Cadaverousbirth]

1 minute ago, Surrealistik said:

I really wish there was an upgrade for Hoffman where he could grant the Construct trait to a model; 'Mechanical Enhancements' or some shit.

Fluff-wise he is 100% against this, at least publicly. Johan doesn't really need the help anyway.

[Surrealistik]

2 minutes ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

Fluff-wise he is 100% against this, at least publicly. Johan doesn't really need the help anyway.

Maybe, but hypocrisy and expedience/Machiavellianism is essentially the order of the day for the Guild; as long as the powers that be vet it, it's all good.

[Cadaverousbirth]

It looks like that philosophy may be changing here very soon...

[Bazlord_Prime]

Hoffman strikes me (from the little fluff-gathering that I've done), to be - alongside Lady J - maybe the Guild's most earnest and naive Master, right?  I'd kinda like to see him get some interaction with enemy  Constructs, perhaps (don't think he has any at the moment, does he?).  But maybe that'd be too far-ranging.  I'm sure though, fluff-wise, he'd have something to say about that filthy Rogue Necromancy...  ;-)

 

[Surrealistik]

3 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Hoffman strikes me (from the little fluff-gathering that I've done), to be - alongside Lady J - maybe the Guild's most earnest and naive Master, right?  I'd kinda like to see him get some interaction with enemy  Constructs, perhaps (don't think he has any at the moment, does he?).  But maybe that'd be too far-ranging.  I'm sure though, fluff-wise, he'd have something to say about that filthy Rogue Necromancy...  ;-)

 

Nah man, it's Lady J by a mile. Hoffman cares about himself and his brother and that's it. I don't think he's particularly principled, but on the other hand he's not a straight up bad guy like say McMourning or Lucius and has a sense of right and wrong; he's probably at McCabe's level.

[Gnomezilla]

10 hours ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Hoffman strikes me (from the little fluff-gathering that I've done), to be - alongside Lady J - maybe the Guild's most earnest and naive Master, right?  I'd kinda like to see him get some interaction with enemy  Constructs, perhaps (don't think he has any at the moment, does he?).

Do you want fluff or crunch? On Sight Assimilation is friendly or enemy, no resist. Grab Devour off of a flesh construct some time. It's fun! 

[EnternalVoid]

Going to be a few spoilers just as a warning

Going to have to disagree that Hoffman is on level with McCabe, McCabe is not a good man.  Maybe not an evil man, but he is not a good man and he admits it.  He might sometimes wish he was a better man, acknowledging his fault, but he is not a good man.  He is the sort that can hand someone something knowing that it will kill them, help lead a man into a trap, do the knife work himself, and work with a pack of backstabbers that barely have any moral fibers.

Hoffman actually does care about others, just they are not at the for front of his mind.  He has put himself at risk to do his job before, above and beyond what many others would be willing to do.  He also is not the sort to risk the people under him if he has a choice.  Is he walking around giving to charity, helping the homeless, and brighting everyone's day? No but I don't think anyone in Malifaux is that nice.  Hoffman you could argue at least is a good man in an ugly evil place stuck making hard decisions.  Take the whole tower case where he insisted on digging Lady J and the Judge out of Nicodem's fallen tower.  Ramos had wrote them off as dead and pointed out it was unsafe to stay but Hoffman refused to leave them.  McCabe would have left with out looking back, writing it off as just one of those things that happens.  Hoffman at least felt he had to do something for others there.  Even to stubbornly stand up to Ramos there.  That being said, yes Ryle is his strongest driving point, for good or ill.  But I would argue he cares less about himself then about his brother or even others, his strongest drive to live is the fact that if he died he also fails with his whole brother thing.  Now things might change down the road, but at the same time he might well prove he is the bigger man too.

Lady Justice is more questionable in my opinion.  By the common people of Malifaux she is seen as a hero, to which she is as she keeps a dangerous sort of villiany in check.  But we don't know her motivations, we don't know her past.  Hoffman we have been given his background and his internal thoughts in the stories, Lady Justice we have not gotten the same sort of treatments leaving her more mysterious.  Also it is clear from some stories Lady Justice does have a level of ruthlessness.  The story where Perdita, Lady J, and Sonnia were lured into a trap it was Perdita that was arguing not to kill the person behind it.  Lady Justice was alright with killing the person once she heard the person had hired a Resser as part of the trap.  And while she was not comfortable with Sonnia planning to turn the person into a witchling stalker, she in the end grudgingly accepted rather than let her go unattended.  Lady J offered no words about jail or anything like that over having them transformed into a stalker.  Which we know is a less then kind fate.  So yes as it stands I would label her a good person, one of the better people in Malifaux, but she is to much of a question mark to judge her as a mile above Hoffman who we have had more laid out.  For all we know she has a dark secret and hidden agendas that drives her.  Or Not.

[Surrealistik]

7 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

Going to be a few spoilers just as a warning

Going to have to disagree that Hoffman is on level with McCabe, McCabe is not a good man.  Maybe not an evil man, but he is not a good man and he admits it.  He might sometimes wish he was a better man, acknowledging his fault, but he is not a good man.  He is the sort that can hand someone something knowing that it will kill them, help lead a man into a trap, do the knife work himself, and work with a pack of backstabbers that barely have any moral fibers.

Hoffman actually does care about others, just they are not at the for front of his mind.  He has put himself at risk to do his job before, above and beyond what many others would be willing to do.  He also is not the sort to risk the people under him if he has a choice.  Is he walking around giving to charity, helping the homeless, and brighting everyone's day? No but I don't think anyone in Malifaux is that nice.  Hoffman you could argue at least is a good man in an ugly evil place stuck making hard decisions.  Take the whole tower case where he insisted on digging Lady J and the Judge out of Nicodem's fallen tower.  Ramos had wrote them off as dead and pointed out it was unsafe to stay but Hoffman refused to leave them.  McCabe would have left with out looking back, writing it off as just one of those things that happens.  Hoffman at least felt he had to do something for others there.  Even to stubbornly stand up to Ramos there.  That being said, yes Ryle is his strongest driving point, for good or ill.  But I would argue he cares less about himself then about his brother or even others, his strongest drive to live is the fact that if he died he also fails with his whole brother thing.  Now things might change down the road, but at the same time he might well prove he is the bigger man too.

 

Keep in mind I'm going on only what I've read in the rule books. If what you're saying is true, then yeah, Hoffman is certainly a better person than McCabe. That said I've always felt him to be one of the more ethical people in Malifaux, which isn't saying much as that's a decisively low bar.

[Franchute]

Even the book suggests he had a criminal past. But it is not very precise regarding this aspect and only mentions series of problem with the police.

[Surrealistik]

Noted that, but didn't pay it much heed because illegality != immorality. It all depends on the nature of the crime.

[Gnomezilla]

2 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Noted that, but didn't pay it much heed because illegality != immorality. It all depends on the nature of the crime.

*steps out of the room for a minute*

*anguished keening*

*returns, but does not put the Malifaux Child on the table*

The trouble with delving into Hoffman's fluff is realizing he does truly horrible things, worthy of Malifaux...without being conscious of them. You end up asking yourself, "Wouldn't it have been more moral to just let him go, instead of binding the one you miss most into an abomination?", or worse. McCabe is a simple, impulsive jackass. That's easier to think about.

[Surrealistik]

11 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

*steps out of the room for a minute*

*anguished keening*

*returns, but does not put the Malifaux Child on the table*

The trouble with delving into Hoffman's fluff is realizing he does truly horrible things, worthy of Malifaux...without being conscious of them. You end up asking yourself, "Wouldn't it have been more moral to just let him go, instead of binding the one you miss most into an abomination?", or worse. McCabe is a simple, impulsive jackass. That's easier to think about.

Honestly, I don't think that Hoffman thought it would play out as it did, or that at the very least that he would've found a workable solution much sooner.

That he keeps Ryle as he is is perhaps the real point of condemnation, though I'm not sure if it's essentially unethical; do we know that Ryle is really suffering? It is a state of pain and misery of semi-consciousness? If he is suffering, is that worth the promise of being restored one day?

 

[solkan]

18 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

*steps out of the room for a minute*

*anguished keening*

*returns, but does not put the Malifaux Child on the table*

The trouble with delving into Hoffman's fluff is realizing he does truly horrible things, worthy of Malifaux...without being conscious of them. You end up asking yourself, "Wouldn't it have been more moral to just let him go, instead of binding the one you miss most into an abomination?", or worse. McCabe is a simple, impulsive jackass. That's easier to think about.

Without spoilers for book four, I don't think Ramos lied to Hoffman concerning Ryle.  Either either the state change was gradual and no one noticed, or Ryle's rival just sort of pushed him over the threshold.

In other words, I don't think any of Hoffman's judgement concerning his brother's condition (the whole time) was really trustworthy.  It was pretty much entirely denial over the situation, which is probably how some people have to deal with a comatose relative.

[Surrealistik]

Okay I'm obviously in way over my head here having never read the books, lol.

[Gnomezilla]

24 minutes ago, solkan said:

Without spoilers for book four, I don't think Ramos lied to Hoffman concerning Ryle.  Either the state change was gradual and no one noticed, or Ryle's rival just sort of pushed him over the threshold.

In other words, I don't think any of Hoffman's judgement concerning his brother's condition (the whole time) was really trustworthy.  It was pretty much entirely denial over the situation, which is probably how some people have to deal with a comatose relative.

Denial, yes. A good word for everything horrible and how he reacts to it. Repression is another good word.

Unfortunately between the latest Wyrd Chronicles and some careless talk on the Ripples spoiler thread I can put together the bare bones of the story.  I reserve judgment until I've read it for at least a week, though. Crossroads took me a few weeks to unravel all its lines.

Less "no one noticed", more 'Hoffman clinging to signs of hope which weren't spontaneous happenings', I think. Hoffman wishes with all his heart that there's a spark of Ryle left alive, and we've known since he was introduced that constructs respond to his unspoken wishes....

[solkan]

34 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Less "no one noticed", more 'Hoffman clinging to signs of hope which weren't spontaneous happenings', I think. Hoffman wishes with all his heart that there's a spark of Ryle left alive, and we've known since he was introduced that constructs respond to his unspoken wishes....

Remember when Ramos and Hoffman were arguing and Ryle intervened?  Remember when Ramos told Hoffman "Even I heard your call?" concerning the event?  Both of those events call into question Lovelace's understanding of the situation.  Lovelace has a Ressurectionist's view of what constructs and flesh can be.

 

[Bazlord_Prime]

LALALALALA!!!  Can't read this thread anymore!  Spoilers by the steam-shovel load!!    I've only read(listened) to the fluff in Tales from the Breach so far, so I've got to go pick up the old books and new books and Malifaux chronicles, and get busy!