Let's Discuss: Guild Pathfinders; Tactica, Strategies and Utilization

[spooky_squirrel]

So I saw this thread and had an initial reaction of: "this could be interesting, exchange of ideas, see what other perspectives there are on these guys". I'm primarily Arcanist with Ten Thunders, but I recently picked up Nightmare McCabe and was looking for ways to use his Guardsmen infiltration. I already see use for these guys with Brewmaster and Mei Feng, and I've got some TT-specific ideas that definitely don't apply to McCabe/Guild. That's what I came here, to get ideas specific to McCabe and Guild.
Things like using Austringers to Deliver Orders to push traps into interesting locations and drop schemes. Or shunting the traps around to force a scheme runner to deal with them or get shot by a focused Clockwork Rifle. What are the strengths and weaknesses of different approaches? What models outside of Austringers have synergies? Are there times to not use From the Shadows? Are there things I can learn in this thread that go beyond what I can read here: https://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/M2E+Clockwork+Trap or here: https://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/M2E+Guild+Pathfinder? Can anyone confirm/deny their usefulness with McCabe?

After reading the thread, however, I'm disappointed. Tactics and theory should deal with what the cards say and how they interact with things that exist. What strats/schemes they play into well, and which ones do they just give up victory points in. Wishlisting doesn't really belong in a tactics discussion. Where are things like "watch out for magnetism/ooh glowy/armor piercing/aura effects when playing against [faction]"? Maybe some "against [faction] I prefer to use them to shoot [target] or put traps around [target]." There was a little at the start, complete with the idea of using focus to boost your summoning chances (interesting idea that doesn't appear in the wiki).

[solkan]

21 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

The fact is that double focus for a guaranteed trap is perfectly fair when you consider the time value of your AP; for a Pathfinder that ranges from 1 SS to 0.6 SS per AP, depending on whether a longevity of 3 or 5 turns is assumed (6 / (5 to 3*2)). In effect, a guaranteed Clockwork Trap would cost 2 to 1.2 SS in AP; a slight discount on average vs the 2 SS baseline but at the cost of not being able to place it wherever you want immediately.

Please point out other models in the game balanced according to that metric, which do so without a Rare limit or interacting with anything else in the game. 

Over the course of a 5 turn game, a Pathfinder with your proposed change summons 10SS worth of models.  Guaranteed, with no chance of failure, no interactions with other models, and consuming no resources other than the activation of a minion model.  A 6SS model with no Rare limit more than doubling its value through produced models over the course of game.

Edit:  And, frankly, "at the cost of not being able to place it wherever you want it immediately" is a joke.  The Pathfinder has From the Shadows.  That means that if you've hired it, it's because you're deploying it where you would want those traps to be in the first place.

[Surrealistik]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

Please point out other models in the game balanced according to that metric, which do so without a Rare limit or interacting with anything else in the game. 

Over the course of a 5 turn game, a Pathfinder with your proposed change summons 10SS worth of models.  Guaranteed, with no chance of failure, no interactions with other models, and consuming no resources other than the activation of a minion model.  A 6SS model with no Rare limit more than doubling its value through produced models over the course of game.

Again, you seem to be totally discounting the time value of AP which is silly. A Pathfinder producing traps via the 2 AP mechanism is a Pathfinder that is not doing other things, which absolutely counts against its net effectiveness during a game. It is a fact that PFs produce more net value via the current cheat mechanism than they do this way (because when they can do it, it's pure profit outside of the one card which is _not_ worth nearly as much as 2 AP). If a Pathfinder spends all 3 of the rounds it exists producing traps per the Focused +2 method, it has only paid for itself, out putting 6 SS worth of actions. 2 SS net gain at 4 turns; 4 SS at 5 in a best case scenario; not even close to broken, particularly as models can and often do produce value well in excess of their cost and that differential.

Concerning your edit, no, "wherever you want it immediately" ,is not a joke. A Pathfinder can still be disrupted/killed through losing initiative as an example; a Clockwork Trap by contrast is already in place; your opponent can't stop it, or prevent placement.

I don't know how Wyrd actually balances their models, or calculates balance especially which such instances as Austringers and Belles floating around, but whether or not they consider time value, or SS per AP as metrics, that in no way has any bearing or impact on their utility as a useful method of assessing model power/balance.

[Eclipse]

59 minutes ago, solkan said:

Please point out other models in the game balanced according to that metric, which do so without a Rare limit or interacting with anything else in the game. 

Over the course of a 5 turn game, a Pathfinder with your proposed change summons 10SS worth of models.  Guaranteed, with no chance of failure, no interactions with other models, and consuming no resources other than the activation of a minion model.  A 6SS model with no Rare limit more than doubling its value through produced models over the course of game.

Edit:  And, frankly, "at the cost of not being able to place it wherever you want it immediately" is a joke.  The Pathfinder has From the Shadows.  That means that if you've hired it, it's because you're deploying it where you would want those traps to be in the first place.

There are those argumentative people who would argue for the sake of argument, or those self-righteous who would believe themselves to have infallible judgement and opinions. This might not be the case here, but it sounds pretty close. As a wise (anonymous) persona once said, 'Don't feed the troll'.

[Surrealistik]

5 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

There are those argumentative people who would argue for the sake of argument, or those self-righteous who would believe themselves to have infallible judgement and opinions. This might not be the case here, but it sounds pretty close. As a wise (anonymous) persona once said, 'Don't feed the troll'.

Wow, so now I'm a 'troll' for meticulously and in detail explaining why and how I disagree with what has essentially been thus far an arbitrary opinion cobbled together largely from arguments/appeals to precedent/tradition, including a break down and analysis of time value which is absolutely a relevant and applicable concept. Unbelievable. So glad we had this discussion.

 

[Myyrä]

3 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Are there times to not use From the Shadows?

This one can be easily answered. There are 0 reasons not to use From the Shadows, because models with the ability won't be able to interact on the first turn either way, and there is always a better spot available to them outside the deployment zone, even if it is close by. Nino and Freikorps Trappers can be sometimes deployed within your own deployment zone, but Pathfinder has no business there.

3 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

After reading the thread, however, I'm disappointed. Tactics and theory should deal with what the cards say and how they interact with things that exist. What strats/schemes they play into well, and which ones do they just give up victory points in. Wishlisting doesn't really belong in a tactics discussion. Where are things like "watch out for magnetism/ooh glowy/armor piercing/aura effects when playing against [faction]"? Maybe some "against [faction] I prefer to use them to shoot [target] or put traps around [target]." There was a little at the start, complete with the idea of using focus to boost your summoning chances (interesting idea that doesn't appear in the wiki).

I agree with you about the usefulness of this thread.

[4thstringer]

9 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

 

After reading the thread, however, I'm disappointed. Tactics and theory should deal with what the cards say and how they interact with things that exist. What strats/schemes they play into well, and which ones do they just give up victory points in. Wishlisting doesn't really belong in a tactics discussion. Where are things like "watch out for magnetism/ooh glowy/armor piercing/aura effects when playing against [faction]"? Maybe some "against [faction] I prefer to use them to shoot [target] or put traps around [target]." There was a little at the start, complete with the idea of using focus to boost your summoning chances (interesting idea that doesn't appear in the wiki).

While the traps do not like armor piercing, I would say that is quite obvious considering their only defense is their armor two, and without that armor value there isn't much to them.  I would point out (though I haven't seen this used) that pandora can use moving into their area as a way to get a quick push, as their ml 5 is unlikely to hit her wp of 7.  I would also point out that they aren't great for locking down high def models, because if they fail their disengage they are just left hangin there.  Traps also do not like black blood.

Besides the diversion that the discussion of summoning them has provided, I think we have had a lot of interesting tips and tricks that have been brought up. If we want to talk schemes and strats that they are useful, we can do that too. 

I think it was mentioned earlier that they can be a liability in hunting party (though a lone trap in the corner is an interesting anti-hunting party move, it is one a mobile crew can still usually solve).

I love them in interference, especially if I am bringing a list with pushes.  I've used them in recon to a lesser extent, but that usually involves putting them near the middle.

I've used them to block the way to the turf marker of the stash markers, but at least for turf war its usually dealt with fairly easily.

 

The scheme marker dropping tricks which were discussed earlier would also apply for leave your mark, convict labor, etc.    They can also be a target for the transparency trigger, though my experience with journalists so far is having to use mid tomes to do that is problematic. and since field reporters can only target enemy models you have to use  Allison or Nellie to get that done.  Thats too expensive for what it is.

As far as other schemes go, I don't remember offhand if they can do take prisoner.

I can say, I have had games where dealing with a well placed trap has jammed up my opponent to the point of distraction, and I almost always get good value in terms of using up opposing AP to deal with them.

They are better against low defense high wound models, so I would think against ressers they would be more useful (though we just plain don't have many ressers in my area so I'm probably missing something).

As far as McCabe goes, they don't seem to have any particularly useful purpose with him, with the exception of maybe clogging up the movement lanes to allow your doggies to get through.  I would never give them one of McCabe's upgrades, McCabe doesn't really need more tarpit.  The only use I see is against a bricky list, you use a pathfinder to drop one into their midsts, eating up as many activations as possible.  That would allow McCabe and doggies to get into positions to run all of the schemes really easily.  The problem with this is that I don't feel like McCabe has trouble doing that anyways, and between austringers and significant dogs there isn't really a valuable place for them in his lists that I see.  Of all the masters, I think McCabe is the one that traps and pathfinder go with the worst.  I think they are the most valuable with McMourning and Nellie (and certain Lucius lists), they are just ok with Sonnia, hoff, and Lady J, and really bring almost nothing to the table for Dita and McCabe.

A final bit of silly-theoryfaux regarding the emissary and traps.  Take a death marshall, an emissary and the trap.  First Turn charge the trap with the Death Marshall, box it.  Now the emissary has an attack that is makes every time an enemy ends a move, push or place within 2 inches of itself.  Its like a mini fears given form.  The trap just stays in the box until the death marshall tries to box an enemy.  That way even if the boxing fails the enemy model is now dealing with both the death marshall and being engaged by the trap, with all that entails.  If it does fail, depending on where the charge was into, the trap still may be well placed to disrupt a bunch of other models, even ones that the DM is not engaged with.  Not sure  if this is good or not, but at the very least it could give your opponent pause before they charge the emissary (or encourage them if they have black blood).

 

 

 

[spooky_squirrel]

34 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I love them in interference, especially if I am bringing a list with pushes.  I've used them in recon to a lesser extent, but that usually involves putting them near the middle.

I've used them to block the way to the turf marker of the stash markers, but at least for turf war its usually dealt with fairly easily.

[...]

I can say, I have had games where dealing with a well placed trap has jammed up my opponent to the point of distraction, and I almost always get good value in terms of using up opposing AP to deal with them.

They are better against low defense high wound models, so I would think against ressers they would be more useful (though we just plain don't have many ressers in my area so I'm probably missing something).

As far as McCabe goes, they don't seem to have any particularly useful purpose with him, with the exception of maybe clogging up the movement lanes to allow your doggies to get through.  I would never give them one of McCabe's upgrades, McCabe doesn't really need more tarpit.  The only use I see is against a bricky list, you use a pathfinder to drop one into their midsts, eating up as many activations as possible.  That would allow McCabe and doggies to get into positions to run all of the schemes really easily.  The problem with this is that I don't feel like McCabe has trouble doing that anyways, and between austringers and significant dogs there isn't really a valuable place for them in his lists that I see.  Of all the masters, I think McCabe is the one that traps and pathfinder go with the worst.  I think they are the most valuable with McMourning and Nellie (and certain Lucius lists), they are just ok with Sonnia, hoff, and Lady J, and really bring almost nothing to the table for Dita and McCabe.

A final bit of silly-theoryfaux regarding the emissary and traps.  Take a death marshall, an emissary and the trap.  First Turn charge the trap with the Death Marshall, box it.  Now the emissary has an attack that is makes every time an enemy ends a move, push or place within 2 inches of itself.  Its like a mini fears given form.  The trap just stays in the box until the death marshall tries to box an enemy.  That way even if the boxing fails the enemy model is now dealing with both the death marshall and being engaged by the trap, with all that entails.  If it does fail, depending on where the charge was into, the trap still may be well placed to disrupt a bunch of other models, even ones that the DM is not engaged with.  Not sure  if this is good or not, but at the very least it could give your opponent pause before they charge the emissary (or encourage them if they have black blood).

 

Between the Pathfinder's placement and other pushes, I can definitely see them helping in Interference. Turf/Stash markers was something I already had in mind, but I'm not sure where I'd want them (outside, on opponent's half to encourage them to play more towards the middle where I can do things to them more easily? inside, on opponents half so that I can have my marker baby-sitters a little better sheltered on the inside/my half?).

With your games that a well-placed trap jammed up your opponent, what was it that helped? Did terrain force them to deal with your traps or was it pressure from your own forces? Did your opponents just make bad decisions, or did you leave them little choice?

I've got some ressers in my area, but the top picks are Neverborn and Arcanists (we had 3 of each at our last tournament, including me as one of the Arcanists). I typically play denial/control, which is where my interest in the Clockwork Traps comes in: area denial and potentially influencing how my opponent activates and spends activations.

McCabe comes up for me because the pullmyfinger wiki mentions him specifically and he's one of the Masters I now have. Barring adding an element of area control to a mobility list, I wasn't sure why. If the jobs that they'd be hired for is some minor area control and minor shenanigans into certain strat/scheme pools, 2SS each doesn't seem too bad for the traps in a list with room for them. Dropping 10+SS (pathfinder and traps to start with) is a more serious investment, and thus to me should have a more clearly defined job on the table; while the TT ideas I have fulfill that requirement, I don't have the Guild perspective on them.

[fauxreigner]

47 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Between the Pathfinder's placement and other pushes, I can definitely see them helping in Interference. Turf/Stash markers was something I already had in mind, but I'm not sure where I'd want them (outside, on opponent's half to encourage them to play more towards the middle where I can do things to them more easily? inside, on opponents half so that I can have my marker baby-sitters a little better sheltered on the inside/my half?).

I usually deploy the pathfinder directly behind one of the stash markers, out of site. Then he'll either double focus and summon next to this stash, or pop out and summon a little nearer the other stash marker, then pop back behind the first. This is because I'm usually playing Perdita, and having the pathfinder and trap separated provides two different "nodes" for the Nephelim to push crew towards, allowing me to better respond to what my opponent is doing. In Turf war, he's usually looking for some cover, set back a little from the marker, and then summon as far into my opponent's side of the 6" circle as possible, to box them away from the trap. I usually find that my opponents don't "deal" with the traps - there always seems to be something more critical to use AP on once Perdita or McMourning get in their face. Instead, the traps act to eat their hand as they cheat to avoid slow. 

 

57 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

McCabe comes up for me because the pullmyfinger wiki mentions him specifically and he's one of the Masters I now have. Barring adding an element of area control to a mobility list, I wasn't sure why. If the jobs that they'd be hired for is some minor area control and minor shenanigans into certain strat/scheme pools, 2SS each doesn't seem too bad for the traps in a list with room for them. Dropping 10+SS (pathfinder and traps to start with) is a more serious investment, and thus to me should have a more clearly defined job on the table; while the TT ideas I have fulfill that requirement, I don't have the Guild perspective on them.

McCabe is an interesting case with Pathfinders. On the one hand, he can reactivate them, meaning that you get two traps on turn 1 if you happen to be lucky enough to draw two summon cards. On the other hand, McCabe also wants the medium-numbered tomes to double his upgrade toss, so there is competition for the summon cards, which I really don't like. I guess you could hire a trap or two and just use the pathfinder to reposition them, but I'm not a fan of hiring them. Plus its hard to argue that reactivating a pathfinder in turn 1 is better than reactivating an austringer and giving them nimble - usually the difference between getting 2 focused shots turn 1, and using turn 1 just to reposition the austringer.

[spooky_squirrel]

I typically play denial/control, so eating my opponent's hand appeals to me, especially over something that's not as important to deal with as everything else that's happening on the table.

 

The direct competition between McCabe and other elements in his crew for Tomes/triggers is one of the things I'm thinking about when considering hiring options. I've run into that problem with other masters.

[Ludvig]

Traps are great for messing with charge lanes. Our boards often feature several points where a well placed trap will prevent any model larger than 30mm from crossing the center line at all or at least force them to slog through severe terrain. 

On more open tables it's useful to deny charges by placing them into engagement even if they do nothing else.

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, spooky_squirrel said:

With your games that a well-placed trap jammed up your opponent, what was it that helped? Did terrain force them to deal with your traps or was it pressure from your own forces? Did your opponents just make bad decisions, or did you leave them little choice?

The main thing it has done is help nullify the speed disadvantage my crew usually starts at and lets me get started on my schemes.    It can also cause problems for my opponent in delivering their forces together.   Enemy models are more easily killed when they can't concentrate their forces. 

My opponents have gotten better about either having flying similar abilities to avoid getting boxed in,  or setting up to avoid it.   But I feel like traps aren't a common choice,  so they still srprise people.

[JDAntoine]

With very limited experience I've currently used them the most with my Latiago models (Perdita, Francisco, Abuela, Enslaved, Papa and double Austringers). What I liked the most so far is the movement the build adds to them, making sure the Clockwork traps are always a problem if my opponent is going to hunt down any of the pieces. It still is a glass cannon but with some good ranged options and once the opponent does engage and has 2 Wd left on Minions/Peons the traps usually form a large problem.

Perhaps the synergy isn't too big but in general I do love the disposable Clockwork Traps and Shackled synergies. As mentioned to me their prime job is to keep some pieces from getting charged.