Let's Discuss: Guild Pathfinders; Tactica, Strategies and Utilization

[Surrealistik]

Your one stop shop for Guild Pathfinder tactica and utilization strategies.

[Myyrä]

Pro tip: Use them to summon traps.

[Surrealistik]

With that rousing and particularly specific bit of advice out of the way, any thoughts as to their usage and value?

It's not a model I've readily explored due to so many other attractive/stone efficient options which I've beelined to, but they look like they have a great deal of potential.

[4thstringer]

Ive found players tend to bunch up in their deployment zone.   If you place your pathfinder where he can walk out,  drop a trap in their midst and then step back into cover it can cause havoc,  Or at least eat activations your opponent wants to use elsewhere. 

 

You can also bring killjoy with him,  so when the traps inevitably get killed a horrible killing machine pops out,  ready to cause havoc on them while the rest of your crew works on schemes.

With sonnia, a trap can be your blasting target to then send blasts into their crew. 

Queeg can allow for either the placement of a second trap or the opportunistic placement off the first. 

A trap can be a good way to lock down a non leaping scheme runner. 

Your enemy will learn to hate your traps. 

Oh and I guess he has a gun. 

[Surrealistik]

Hard to fit him into a Sonnia list much as the synergies are obvious. I can perhaps see taking him with Perdita, McCabe and McMourning (though I have very little experience with the latter two). Any lists to recommend?

[Surrealistik]

Kicking around something like this for Sonnia: http://bythetree.net/?f=1&s=50&l=96|110,133,107&t=32|1|17|&m=78|0|*98|0|*82|0|*82|0|*86|0|*86|0|*254|0|133

Basically you employ a wall of traps in lieu of San Fran combined with dual flame pillars; extra activation vs a traditional list is icing on the cake. Sleuths for extra mobility and winning initiative when it counts. No idea for the other guys though since I don't really play as them, Perdita excepted, and I struggle to find something to drop for her.

[fauxreigner]

I love them in a Guild McMourning list. Traps are the only things he can use his injection on without any downsides, as they are immune to poison (all conditions). I'll mostly take a pathfinder when the strat is extraction or guard the stash, and have him drop traps near table center where they will be most annoying. McMourning then repositions them with the injection, to ensure they are tying up as many models as possible, and dropping markers for plant explosives, or search the ruins, or whatever. Also McMourning can use them to push himself around with Rancid Transplant if he needs to disengage or get a few more inches of movement, again without the downside of poisoning a model. 

Pro tip, if you have already positioned the pathfinder well with From the Shadows, and it looks like theres not much for him to do in his activation, then double focus and try to summon a trap - sometimes it works!

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, just looked up McMourning, and that is a powerful synergy indeed. Kudos faux.

[Surrealistik]

Another strong synergy is having one of these Traps/Pathfinders deploy up to 24" up the board, then having a Guild Austringer target it with Deliver Orders, letting it move another 2" before setting up a Scheme Marker teleportation beacon for your Brutal Emissary to deliver bombs/models to via the standard Cage model to be teleported > Bury Emissary.

Yeah, you can't exploit it first turn, but it's a cheap way of setting up teleportation anchors throughout the map.

In general Austringers have good synergy with Traps via Deliver Orders.

[Eclipse]

10 hours ago, fauxreigner said:

Pro tip, if you have already positioned the pathfinder well with From the Shadows, and it looks like theres not much for him to do in his activation, then double focus and try to summon a trap - sometimes it works!

As far as I can remember, you can use Focus for Duels, but not for simple Tacticals. I could be wrong though, will check it out later.

[Surrealistik]

2 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

As far as I can remember, you can use Focus for Duels, but not for simple Tacticals. I could be wrong though, will check it out later.

It works: Focus applies to the duel and damage flip of any action, and summoning a trap most certainly involves a duel.

[fauxreigner]

Yeah focus works on all duels, not just opposed duels as far as I'm aware. If you really really want a trap on turn 1, then between your starting hand, stoning for cards, and a double focused summon (assuming you activate pathfinder first) you can see the top 11 cards, and the probability of not finding a 6+ of tomes is extremely low.

[Surrealistik]

Thinking something like this for Guild McMourning: http://bythetree.net/?f=1&s=50&l=131|136,139,138&t=127|1|18|&m=82|0|*82|0|*86|0|*86|0|*249|18|*249|18|*185|18|133,140

Good on activations, decent firepower, tactically flexible, trap spam with McMourning and Austringer synergies, awesome at placing scheme markers, Nurse support and Unknowable Pain for making herr doktor and other models mobile.

Can replace Expert Sleuth/Unknowable Pain (the latter probably since only McMourning really gets serious mileage out of it; I guess Nurses could in order to get into position for paralyzing/debilitating stuff) on Sebastien with Numb to the World.

[Franchute]

50 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Thinking something like this for Guild McMourning: http://bythetree.net/?f=1&s=50&l=131|136,139,138&t=127|1|18|&m=82|0|*82|0|*86|0|*86|0|*249|18|*249|18|*185|18|133,140

Good on activations, decent firepower, tactically flexible, trap spam with McMourning and Austringer synergies, awesome at placing scheme markers, Nurse support and Unknowable Pain for making herr doktor and other models mobile.

Can replace Expert Sleuth/Unknowable Pain (the latter probably since only McMourning really gets serious mileage out of it; I guess Nurses could in order to get into position for paralyzing/debilitating stuff) on Sebastien with Numb to the World.

The chihuahua for 2 points is a bargain. I consider it especially when bringing Sebastian, e.g. in turf war. It complements him very well. Maybe two nurses is too much? Also, dont you like Frank?

[Surrealistik]

1 hour ago, Franchute said:

The chihuahua for 2 points is a bargain. I consider it especially when bringing Sebastian, e.g. in turf war. It complements him very well. Maybe two nurses is too much? Also, dont you like Frank?

Urgh; it seems like the URL generator does not account for the Chihuahua which is _definitely_ on the list as below. Franc is fine, but he's hard to fit in if you want to maximize trap spam and Austringers.

 

Guild - 50ss Crew

McMourning -- 5SS Cache
+On The Clock - 1ss
+Plastic Surgery - 1ss
+Evidence Tampering - 2ss

• Zombie Chihuahua - 2ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Pathfinder - 6ss
• Guild Pathfinder - 6ss
• Nurse - 5ss
• Nurse - 5ss
• Sebastian - 7ss
  +Expert Sleuth - 1ss
  +Unknowable Pain - 1ss
  

Also considered a list with two Hunters (Dropping Sebastien), for pushing models into trap spam:

Guild - 50ss Crew

McMourning -- 5SS Cache
+On The Clock - 1ss
+Plastic Surgery - 1ss
+Evidence Tampering - 2ss

• Zombie Chihuahua - 2ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Pathfinder - 6ss
• Guild Pathfinder - 6ss
• Hunter - 7ss
• Hunter - 7ss
• Nurse - 5ss
  

 

[fauxreigner]

Yeah, i think two nurses is not necessary. And... yes Frank is such a cliche, but I find that he re-defines how Guild McMourning plays. At Df/Wp 7, the doc can essentially stand in the middle of your opponents crew acting as a massive AP drain while spreading poison with his knife (Sebastian is skulking 6" away). If you add the brutal effigy, then you'll usually find that your opponent cannot damage him faster than he heals up, and it can be incredibly frustrating. You can easily have him heal 8-10 wounds per turn with the Effigy on hand, if you get yourself surrounded (the synergy of Rancid Transplant, Plastic Surgery and Don't Fear the Sword is filthy).  At Df/Wp 5, I 'd be nervous to play him so aggressively. Nevertheless, if you are specifically trying to leave Frank at home, more power to you! 

I'm also not sure that two pathfinders is useful, unless you are going to bring some traps in your base list. How often do you expect two 6+ of tomes in hand?

 

[Surrealistik]

Trying to find a way to extract maximum mileage from Pathfinder basically. I guess you could run something like this if you want to focus on McMourning as opposed to trap synergy via pushes:

Guild - 50ss Crew

McMourning -- 4SS Cache
+On The Clock - 1ss
+Plastic Surgery - 1ss
+Evidence Tampering - 2ss

• Zombie Chihuahua - 2ss
• Brutal Effigy - 4ss
• Francisco Ortega - 8ss
  +Wade In - 1ss
  +Lead Lined Coat - 2ss (or Numb to the World, Hermano, etc)
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Pathfinder - 6ss
• Guild Pathfinder - 6ss
• Nurse - 5ss

 

[fauxreigner]

My current favorite Guild McMourning list is:

McMourning, On the Clock, Plastic Surgery (2ss)

Francisco, Wade In, Debt to the Guild (10ss)

Sebastian (7ss)

Brutal Effigy (4ss)

Chihuahua (2ss)

Austringer (6ss)

Pathfinder (6ss)

 

That leaves 13ss left to play with, which is spent on one of the following:

Hunter + second austringer

Nurse + Johan + Debt to the Guild (I often drop the Chihuahua here. I mostly just use him to poison up the doc, and the Nurse does it better)

The pale rider

 

 

 

[Clockwork_Fish]

A bit corner case, but if you are playing Lucius and you've brought along some Changelings, you can copy the hunting musket to get around the Changeling's low attack stat of 4.  The musket doesn't randomize for clockwork traps, and gains +1 Sh for every trap within 2".  With a 2/4/5 damage track with blasts on moderate and severe, that's not half bad.  The knife gets the same bonus for nearby traps, but the damage is a bit lackluster.

[fauxreigner]

14 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

McMourning -- 4SS Cache
+On The Clock - 1ss
+Plastic Surgery - 1ss
+Evidence Tampering - 2ss

I would strongly consider dropping Evidence Tampering and saving yourself some stones. In the trap build, you are going to use your zero action to move traps around, so scalpel slingin' will be wasted. I often get confused when I see people paying 2ss for that upgrade, just because I love the injection so much, and theres usually something to expunge in a pinch, even if its just to heal an extra point of damage through the effigy. I get that scalpel slingin' is good, but I won't pay 2ss for a zero that competes with two other good ones. The one exception is when Search the Ruins is in the pool, which is basically the only new scheme where the marker ability comes into play. 

[Franchute]

9 minutes ago, fauxreigner said:

I would strongly consider dropping Evidence Tampering. In the trap build, you are going to use your zero action to move traps around, so scalpel slingin' will be wasted. I often get confused when I see people paying 2ss for that upgrade, just because I love the injection so much. And theres usually something to expunge, even if just to heal an extra point of damage through the effigy. I get that scalpel slingin' is good, but I won't pay 2ss for a zero that competes with two other good ones. The one exception is when Search the Ruins is in the pool, which is basically the only new scheme where the marker ability comes into play. 

I won a game once just because of the "Evidence Tempering" ability of the Evidence Tempering upgrade, but without using even once the zero action of the upgrade. If I don't expect my opponent to throw many scheme markers, I would not consider the upgrade. Injection is my preferred zero action for McMourning.

[fauxreigner]

1 minute ago, Franchute said:

I won a game once just because of the "Evidence Tempering" ability of the Evidence Tempering upgrade, but without using even once the zero action of the upgrade. If I don't expect my opponent to throw many scheme markers, I would not consider the upgrade. Injection is my preferred zero action for McMourning.

Was it using rulebook schemes? I think there was a lot more utility for evidence tampering before GG2016. As far as I'm aware, now its just Search the Ruins.

[Franchute]

34 minutes ago, fauxreigner said:

Was it using rulebook schemes? I think there was a lot more utility for evidence tampering before GG2016. As far as I'm aware, now its just Search the Ruins.

It's true that we don't play GG2016 here.

[Surrealistik]

 

3 hours ago, fauxreigner said:

I would strongly consider dropping Evidence Tampering and saving yourself some stones. In the trap build, you are going to use your zero action to move traps around, so scalpel slingin' will be wasted. I often get confused when I see people paying 2ss for that upgrade, just because I love the injection so much, and theres usually something to expunge in a pinch, even if its just to heal an extra point of damage through the effigy. I get that scalpel slingin' is good, but I won't pay 2ss for a zero that competes with two other good ones. The one exception is when Search the Ruins is in the pool, which is basically the only new scheme where the marker ability comes into play. 

I actually agree with this in most cases; dropping Evidence Tampering on the 2x Hunter list allows for a Clockwork Trap and Sleuth/Dampening Field; probably should drop the Nurse and a Pathfinder for Brutal Effigy and Franc (Hermano is a placeholder):

Guild - 50ss Crew

 

McMourning -- 4SS Cache
+On The Clock - 1ss
+Plastic Surgery - 1ss

• Zombie Chihuahua - 2ss
• Brutal Effigy - 4ss
• Francisco Ortega - 8ss
  +Wade In - 1ss
  +Hermanos De Armas - 1ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Austringer - 6ss
• Guild Pathfinder - 6ss
• Hunter - 7ss
• Sebastien/Hunter - 7ss

 

[Surrealistik]

Also, yeah I crunched the (rough) numbers on dual Pathfinders and in terms of trap generation it's a pretty bad idea:

% chance of a random flip coming up 6+ of Tomes (assuming a deck of 54 or consistent ratio of success/fail outcomes vs such a deck): 16.67% 9/54

% chance of at least 1 6+ with Focus +1: 30.81% 1-((1-9/54)*(1-9/53))

% chance with Focus +2: 42.79% 1-((1-9/54)*(1-9/53)*(1-9/52))

% chance of at least 1 6+ Tome or Red Joker (though would you really blow one on a Trap?) in your control hand: 68.46% 1-((1-9/54)*(1-9/53)*(1-9/52)*(1-9/51)*(1-9/50)*(1-9/49))

Basically you can only rely on one trap being generated per turn so a second Pathfinder is generally useful only for moving/synergizing with a bunch of existing traps, or getting in Hail Mary traps. Honestly I think they probably should have either made traps gen on a 2+ Tome (so a 57.02% chance of at least 1 on double focus, 82.59% chance of having at least 1 in your hand assuming a deck of 54), or on a 9+ (78% chance on double focus, 95.71% chance of having at least one appropriate card in your hand; but it will always cost you a valuable card to guarantee via cheat), and/or made it auto-succeed if it was done with Focus +2: Meticulous Trapper: When declaring the Set the Trap Action, if this model removes a Focused Condition with a value of 2+, that Action's duels automatically succeed.

Personally I would have preferred option B combined with option C given the consistency.