molly Molly as a Debuff / Brawler?

[sinistercats]

With all the recent interest in Brawler Pandora I've been wondering if we could almost do something similar with Molly? Granted her Paralyze is way harder than Voices but it's doable. 

Has anyone out here messed with this? Get the negative flip on the target then Paralyze it? Throw some Adversary on the target and let Izamu take it out? [Assumes Spirit Molly obviously] 

[Mikey_C]

In my experience if you get an enemy model on flips there is no need to paralyze it, because it will be dead or have a pretty useless activation anyways. 

That AP is better spent trying to slow/paralyze a different model.  That's my take anyways.

[Pierowmaniac]

Hitting a model (especially a master) with Yins debuff is a perfect follow up, to Molly's debuff though

[benjoewoo]

Keep in mind Molly's debuff for negative flips is a Ca 6 vs WP. Against lower Wp factions not a bad thing, but against higher Wp factions or even middle of the road Wp factions, it's kind of a risky thing--a high card competes for summoning or getting off Molly's actual attack action. Probably worth more than Molly's attack, but can be dicey when weighed against summoning.

[hydranixx]

2 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Keep in mind Molly's debuff for negative flips is a Ca 6 vs WP. Against lower Wp factions not a bad thing, but against higher Wp factions or even middle of the road Wp factions, it's kind of a risky thing--a high card competes for summoning or getting off Molly's actual attack action. Probably worth more than Molly's attack, but can be dicey when weighed against summoning.

I agree. Although she wants to ensure that debuff succeeds and would normally be happy to burn a super high card for it, Spirit Molly also really wants whatever 13's she acquires to summon in Hanged.

Perhaps it's best to use it after most models have activated so there's less chance your opponent can stop it, even if you're only back it up with a middling card of 10 or so. Even if it's just to lure out that last good card from their hand, that's enough as now you'd have free reign over remaining duels against their models. If you can secure activation control, this should be easy enough to do. 

I think the threat of whispered secret is just as potent as the actual use of whispered secret. It can radically change how your opponent sees their control hand, which is very good for you.

If it gets through even once in a game against a key model, that can often be enough to seal the game. It's like the Bete Noire control hand complex in reverse - your opponent will feel obliged keep a 10+ card as insurance against whispered secret.

[Bengt]

6 hours ago, hydranixx said:

I agree. Although she wants to ensure that debuff succeeds and would normally be happy to burn a super high card for it, Spirit Molly also really wants whatever 13's she acquires to summon in Hanged.

Perhaps it's best to use it after most models have activated so there's less chance your opponent can stop it, even if you're only back it up with a middling card of 10 or so. Even if it's just to lure out that last good card from their hand, that's enough as now you'd have free reign over remaining duels against their models. If you can secure activation control, this should be easy enough to do. 

I think the threat of whispered secret is just as potent as the actual use of whispered secret. It can radically change how your opponent sees their control hand, which is very good for you.

If it gets through even once in a game against a key model, that can often be enough to seal the game. It's like the Bete Noire control hand complex in reverse - your opponent will feel obliged keep a 10+ card as insurance against whispered secret.

It only lasts until end of the turn, and thus becomes less powerful the more models have activated.

[sinistercats]

On 9/20/2016 at 5:04 PM, benjoewoo said:

Keep in mind Molly's debuff for negative flips is a Ca 6 vs WP. Against lower Wp factions not a bad thing, but against higher Wp factions or even middle of the road Wp factions, it's kind of a risky thing--a high card competes for summoning or getting off Molly's actual attack action. Probably worth more than Molly's attack, but can be dicey when weighed against summoning

" Although she wants to ensure that debuff succeeds and would normally be happy to burn a super high card for it, Spirit Molly also really wants whatever 13's she acquires to summon in Hanged."

In fact in that game I did summon in the Hanged. They just don't do that much for me I guess. I get on paper how nasty they are- just can't seem to make them worth it for me. Against a high WP crew the Hanged don't do much ether, right? 

[hydranixx]

You're right, Bengt, "until end of turn" stipulation does make it less versatile and less potentially less powerful if it's used later on in the turn. 

Again, I think the threat of it showing up early-mid turn is almost as scary as it actually landing, and can maybe make them activate their key models earlier than they're normally comfortable with.

 

As for generally being a brawler, I'm not so sure. Part of why Pandora can a good brawler is that she passively hurts enemies her just for trying to do things, with Fears, Misery and Terrifying, coupled with the ability to either paralyse lots of things or paralyse one particular thing no matter what, literally by removing immunity to paralyse and immunity to horror tests.

Pandora can simply stone for crows, ditch a low crow in hand with Depression, or simply use her a natural high crow with her Ca6/Ca7 to auto stun any one she hits. Coversely, needing to hit severe damage to paralyse enemy models makes it very unlikely Molly can stun a model that your opponent doesn't want stunned, let alone multiple enemies.

She's also much easier to attack; attack triggers against her still get through even if you discard the two cards to reduce damage, unless you also burn a stone. That's ridiculously resource intensive, and Molly already wants to use her stones for so many things, so it seems risky throwing her into the thick of it on purpose. Could be fun to try though.

It's true, sinistercats, Hanged are not always the right choice. If Molly's close to something with high WP or a low Wd count, a humble Shikome is probably a far better choice (since again we're assuming we're going Spirits). If that is the case, then absolutely, summon her for cheaper, and then use that 13 you had for whispered secret to cripple someone. When the Goryo get released, there's even more options for slightly cheaper options as I understand.

[sinistercats]

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

As for generally being a brawler, I'm not so sure. Part of why Pandora can a good brawler is that she passively hurts enemies her just for trying to do things, with Fears, Misery and Terrifying, coupled with the ability to either paralyse lots of things or paralyse one particular thing no matter what, literally by removing immunity to paralyse and immunity to horror tests.

It's true, sinistercats, Hanged are not always the right choice. If Molly's close to something with high WP or a low Wd count, a humble Shikome is probably a far better choice (since again we're assuming we're going Spirits). If that is the case, then absolutely, summon her for cheaper, and then use that 13 you had for whispered secret to cripple someone. When the Goryo get released, there's even more options for slightly cheaper options as I understand.

Thanks hydranixx- I appreciate it. It's nowhere in the same league as Pandora as a brawler for sure. Molly's been a great lesson for me in having your Master do what you need rather than do what "she does". I've had a whopping' 2 games with her and she basically was a scheme runner in game one and a brawler in game two. Think I summoned 1 model in each game. Love her! 

[Kadeton]

13 minutes ago, sinistercats said:

Molly's been a great lesson for me in having your Master do what you need rather than do what "she does".

I feel like that lesson is really important for Resser players to learn in particular. I've seen far too many Ressers get drawn into losses by the lure of summoning when they needed to be doing other things to secure victory. Sitting back with Nicodem, digging up corpses and pulling out spleens and summoning stuff while the opponent secures their objectives. Kirai and Molly flinging Spirits and Horrors into a meatgrinder while the enemy flankers rack up points. It's heartbreaking to watch.

Best of luck with Molly in the future, it sounds like you're off to a great start.

[sinistercats]

1 minute ago, Kadeton said:

I feel like that lesson is really important for Resser players to learn in particular. I've seen far too many Ressers get drawn into losses by the lure of summoning when they needed to be doing other things to secure victory. Sitting back with Nicodem, digging up corpses and pulling out spleens and summoning stuff while the opponent secures their objectives. Kirai and Molly flinging Spirits and Horrors into a meatgrinder while the enemy flankers rack up points. It's heartbreaking to watch.

Best of luck with Molly in the future, it sounds like you're off to a great start.

Thanks! She's been loads of fun but the games have been more like "one great turn" than actual wins. But I see the potential for sure. 

[Kadeton]

Have you thought about using Hayreddin to unlock the "brawler" style a bit more? You can send him into a fight ahead of her, and then she'll be getting  on damage with Revelation, which should make it much easier to hit those moderate Slows and severe Paralyzes. Hayreddin has no other synergies with Molly (besides Black Blood, I guess) but it would be an interesting experiment.

Are you mainly going Spirits at this stage? I know that a lot of people on here dismiss her Horror version out of hand, but I've found it quite effective. While the Spirits get all that nice offensive synergy from Adversary, the Horrors are generally more resilient and they're still plenty dangerous. I like to bring Spare Parts on Horror Molly as well, since her summoning will build up Corpses pretty quickly and summoning a full-health Rogue Necromancy into an already-depleted enemy crew is usually backbreaking for the opponent.

[sinistercats]

I happen to have all the Spirit models and I'm kinda intending to use roughly the same crew with Molly and Kirai. Basically that's the question I want to answer for myself- When does it make sense to run Spirit Molly vs Kirai and when does it make sense to run Horror Molly. That's part of what me attracts me to her- she's got a wild amount of flexibility for what is needed. 

I've played Horror Molly off and on and I think that goes more with my play style. When I play Kirai it's more about the Spirit Shell game which Molly can't really do as well. So I'm already wondering what Molly brings to that. Obviously there's tons of synergy with the Spirits but that's there regardless who's the Master. 

Plus I really like that most of the Horrors are really hard to hit. Def 5 and 6 in Rezzers is awesome! 

[Mister Feral]

10 hours ago, Kadeton said:

I feel like that lesson is really important for Resser players to learn in particular. I've seen far too many Ressers get drawn into losses by the lure of summoning when they needed to be doing other things to secure victory. Sitting back with Nicodem, digging up corpses and pulling out spleens and summoning stuff while the opponent secures their objectives. Kirai and Molly flinging Spirits and Horrors into a meatgrinder while the enemy flankers rack up points. It's heartbreaking to watch.

Best of luck with Molly in the future, it sounds like you're off to a great start.

That sounds like the last couple of games I had! ?

In retrospect I should of summoned in a scheme runner or two to run off and lay down / claim scheme markers and objectives.

[benjoewoo]

10 hours ago, sinistercats said:

I happen to have all the Spirit models and I'm kinda intending to use roughly the same crew with Molly and Kirai. Basically that's the question I want to answer for myself- When does it make sense to run Spirit Molly vs Kirai and when does it make sense to run Horror Molly. That's part of what me attracts me to her- she's got a wild amount of flexibility for what is needed. 

I've played Horror Molly off and on and I think that goes more with my play style. When I play Kirai it's more about the Spirit Shell game which Molly can't really do as well. So I'm already wondering what Molly brings to that. Obviously there's tons of synergy with the Spirits but that's there regardless who's the Master. 

Plus I really like that most of the Horrors are really hard to hit. Def 5 and 6 in Rezzers is awesome! 

Well, there are plenty of threads that discuss this. Depending on who you ask, one of the paths is recommended as better than the other for general purposes. As always, fortune cookie advice is it depends on schemes and strategies. But, there's some general pointers below:

1. Spirit Molly has multiple summons that ignore armor, while horrors only have student of steel.

2. Spirit Molly can summon the Hanged, one of the more infamous Resser minions because of its high impact move to halve a model's Wds and neuter healing mechanics.

3. Spirits tend to have some synergy between the models themselves, e.g. Adversary, which increases chances of hitting things.

4. Horror Molly summons Ressers' favorite summon: Punk Zombie--all around great fighter and efficient summon. Punk Zombies are some of the best answers we have to Neverborn--really Pandora.

5. Horror Molly has access to models that are specialists while spirits often do the same thing--i.e. the students from University Box

6. Horrors tend to be more self-contained models that do better damage than their spirit counterparts, e.g. Punk Zombies/students with flurry, KJ, Yin, Archie, etc.

Horror Molly is more accurate in fluff, but Spirit Molly isn't necessarily terrible.

For this discussion, play style differences would probably choose the master. But, Kirai has a non-randomizing range attack that can have pretty good damage. Molly's damage comparatively isn't as good, but she can provide a worse debuff than Adversary. 

I would think horror Molly is better for brawling, also because then you can really use Archie, who has great names on his card and great fluff.

[sinistercats]

8 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Well, there are plenty of threads that discuss this. Depending on who you ask, one of the paths is recommended as better than the other for general purposes. As always, fortune cookie advice is it depends on schemes and strategies. But, there's some general pointers below:

1. Spirit Molly has multiple summons that ignore armor, while horrors only have student of steel.

2. Spirit Molly can summon the Hanged, one of the more infamous Resser minions because of its high impact move to halve a model's Wds and neuter healing mechanics.

3. Spirits tend to have some synergy between the models themselves, e.g. Adversary, which increases chances of hitting things.

4. Horror Molly summons Ressers' favorite summon: Punk Zombie--all around great fighter and efficient summon. Punk Zombies are some of the best answers we have to Neverborn--really Pandora.

5. Horror Molly has access to models that are specialists while spirits often do the same thing--i.e. the students from University Box

6. Horrors tend to be more self-contained models that do better damage than their spirit counterparts, e.g. Punk Zombies/students with flurry, KJ, Yin, Archie, etc.

Horror Molly is more accurate in fluff, but Spirit Molly isn't necessarily terrible.

For this discussion, play style differences would probably choose the master. But, Kirai has a non-randomizing range attack that can have pretty good damage. Molly's damage comparatively isn't as good, but she can provide a worse debuff than Adversary. 

I would think horror Molly is better for brawling, also because then you can really use Archie, who has great names on his card and great fluff.

Good write-up! Like I said- I'm trying to find what works for me and my meta. The other thing that didn't make your list is Molly can tank when she has to and doesn't mind being up in the front. Kirai tends to not want to be in the thick of things so that scheme/scenario aspect matters too. 

At any rate I think Molly has plenty of options to handle whatever she needs to do. 

[sinistercats]

Had another good game today and starting to see how the crew goes together.

Molly puts someone on negative flips then does her (0) to have Izamu hit them and then chains right into Izamu again as needed, etc. 

The thing I want to try now is summoning an Onryo to get adversary on the target for the (+) flip for spirits. 

She's lots of fun- doesn't HAVE to summon something every turn. Plenty of times in our game today Molly was the one walking up to pick up the head in Headhunter. LOL