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Reva wrecking face?


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On 10/5/2016 at 3:26 PM, benjoewoo said:

I'll take that bet. I think asami may be top--summoners have uncapped potential with future model designs. As of now though, I'd say it's probably Sandeep (paper knowledge on my part), Nellie (fewer restrictions than asami, significantly reduces opponent's viable scheme pool), asami (full health summons, has very threatening printed attacks--jorogumo can be beastly).

*Virtually shakes hands*  Remember that Sandeep is also a summoner even though his summoning is more limited than Asami's. My rationale for Sandeep being the best is that he's a summoner, and is a jack of all trades, and strong at all of them. He also has some control elements, so you can basically drop him into any objective pool and do well with him.

16 hours ago, Razhem said:

 It just baffles me that Reva has such a huge bullseye on her and something like Marcus who I know can make one of the most oppressive crews I have ever seen or McCabe's dog brigade which is incredibly annoying to deal with or Dreamer's summoning festival of fun seem to not be a big deal now that people have gotten used to them.

This is exactly correct. Well said, Razhem.

Every master can pull off some crazy stuff, and it takes a little time to figure out how to deal with those antics. Given all that, I don't understand why Reva has such a big target on her.

21 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Again Reva is beatable, that doesn't mean she isn't outside the power curve and in possible need of re-evaluation. In an ultra competitive environment Reva may be seen as fine, in a more casual environment she (and a few other ultra-optimized lists) can be an extremely NPE. To each their own.

To me, NPE is a poor argument. Every master is an NPE to someone, and I'm pretty sure you could dig through these forums and find a post calling every single master an NPE. The only way NPE becomes a good argument in my eyes is when a huge portion of the player base considers the model to be negative or disruptive in some way. For example, pre-errata Hamelin was an NPE for everyone, since he was nearly impossible to beat. Reva just has the new master surprise factor, and once people figure out how to deal with her only trick, I predict these types of threads will die down.

There's been some comparison of Reva and pre-cuddle Levy, but I don't think it's a perfect comparison. Reva does one thing - solid, consistent damage with a long reach. Pre-cuddle Levy had a similar sort of reach and damage, with higher mobility, better summoning, and more versatility.

 

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I made a poor typo on the reduction ignoring trigger requiring a corpse--whoops. Ignoring damage reduction is a crow trigger that competes with the other crow only trigger Reva has for +1 damage for a corpse discarded within 3" of the target. 

As to Sandeep, yes, totally misread/mis-remembered how the tome trigger works--it's once per turn. But, the trigger is built in on one of the actions, and other models can copy, with some restrictions, his other actions, including 0s. So, while an oxfordian mage can't furiously cast 3x of any given spell, it can ensure any given Ca action has the tome to trigger for Sandeep. Also, while Sandeep can't trigger several times for himself to cast, all non-peons within range and LoS have the ability to cast his stuff--different than what I said by far, I admit, but numerically can result in the same number of Master level AP with a slight debuff (-1 Ca).

And yes, I greatly misunderstood how Nellie worked in cheating damage only for herself. I think I mistook the ability for the defensive push Nellie can give friendly journalists or the defensive trigger one of Nellie's box upgrades gives journalists--I cannot remember if the upgrade goes on Phiona or Nellie. I also rushed my post in just whole sale listing some of the things she can do, mistakenly stating they all applied to each other. However, they do all apply. Nellie can cheat damage regardless of jokers against herself. Field Reporters have Manipulative and Disguised. Nellie can aid her journalists by giving them/enemy models pushes based on who fails the attack action. One of her upgrades allows her to choose from a selection of bonus, positive effects based on her Evidence +X value, ranging form healing damage to summoning a model. 

With the exception that Sandeep cannot use the tome trigger multiple times a turn--instead all other minions have to use them at a -1Ca, I don't think I too majorly misstated some basics of the masters. I didn't mistake the number of times Sandeep's master level moves could be used--albeit at a negative penalty--and other than who Nellie could cheat damage for, I didn't make a mistake in stating basic other mechanics she has access to out of her crew box.

Math, you pointed out I made a bad argument regarding corpse marker tech. I may not have been clear in how I said it, but I was trying to state that the unavailability of good anti-corpse marker tech for all factions should not be a reason Reva is considered overpowered--I think the argument was originally that providing examples of anti-corpse marker tech was fruitless because gremlins don't have access to great anti-corpse marker tech. Anti-corpse marker is a specific kind of tech that supplements other in game choices that should help players beat Reva or hinder her to achieve a victory--that there are options indicates Reva is less powerful than initially described by some. I phrased it originally in more words and significantly less clearly.

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  • 5 months later...

Just curious on people's thoughts on this idea that i've been experimenting with.

Turn 1 Rogue Necromancy (or "Rogue One" for short!)

Reva w/Spare parts (and whatever other upgrades you want to add)

Mortimer w/Corpse Bloat and My Little Helper.

Activate Mort + MLH, get 3 corpse markers.

Activate Reva, burn a card for the Candle, kill the candle and spawn a Rogue Necromancy on 11+ of Crows.

Been using this combo when there is Frame for Murder and/or Hunting Party in the pool. I find that with FFM Reva has to switch from being the primary beatstick to being a summoner/scheme runner plus if she isn't going to smack anyone on turn 1, she might as well put it to good use getting a 10ss model on the table that can wreck face if it isn't dealt with. Plus I tend to put FFM on Mort because he is already low on wounds and some people get into the whole red mist of killing an easy target, and if they don't... wp13 checks anyone? 

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It may work, even better if reva becomes a support model in stead of the heavy hitter if FFM is on the pool. Do not forget you can give her the upgrade for summoning the candle at the start of the game so you may have two when she activates.

Do not forget they need to be killed as dont count as corpses for summoning! Maybe waiting to turn 2?

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If you're finding good use out of Morty that doesn't sound bad at all! Otherwise you might just want to hire a full AP Rogue Necromancy instead and not pay almost the same amount of Stones on Morty + upgrades. I also think that summoning with Spare parts is a 2 AP cast for the Necromancy.

Overall you're trading 2 master AP, a Henchman activation, 2 high cards and 6 wounds in favor of an additional model and more activation control.

It may be well with it if Morty is pulling his weight the rest of the match, not so much otherwise

 

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As you say, it is a powerful combo on the rigt circunstances. If you are planning on Morty being killed, then it is awesome, as you are changing your model and getting like 2 VP on the process. On the other hand, if you did not want Morty to die, maybe it would be better to attachguises of death on reva and summon a candle at the start of the turn and perhaps avoid MLH on Morty.

game starts and Corpse candle is summoned.

CC activates and kills itself to give someone a buff and lay a corpse

Morty activates, digs in and removes a spleen

Reva summons candle, kills it and summons rogue necro

 

This way you save a couple of points of damage on morty by spending a hig card or choosing a particular upgrade. Always a matter of choices.

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The only issue i had with Guises of Death (GoD) is that the first candle has to be summoned on the opponent's half of the board. So unless your opponent kills the candle, it walks back and drops a marker. I guess with the second one, you can leap onto it, kill it but then you need to be in range of all the markers to get it off (unless you have a doxy on standby to push you around).

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Seems like a lot of stones/work for the model.

Could you not just have Reva do her normal stuff turn 1 spit out a corpse candle and have it killed by something un exciting(1 Corpse), get a hound to dig up a bone (2 Corpses), Carrion Emmisary puts a corpse near by (3 Corpses) then when Reva next activates, kill the new corpse candle (4) then summon the rogue.

Still seems a lot of work for what you need. 

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6 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Seems like a lot of stones/work for the model.

Could you not just have Reva do her normal stuff turn 1 spit out a corpse candle and have it killed by something un exciting(1 Corpse), get a hound to dig up a bone (2 Corpses), Carrion Emmisary puts a corpse near by (3 Corpses) then when Reva next activates, kill the new corpse candle (4) then summon the rogue.

Still seems a lot of work for what you need. 

Relying on Canines to find corpses is extremely risky.

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59 minutes ago, Daysleeper said:

Also summoning it first turn is vasty superior because of the slow from summoning.

I still think it's a lot of work for a RN.

Not as much work as most summoners I find, plus you're 10SS ahead at the end of turn 1 (give or take any extra models summoned/killed)

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I will first admit that this is a crazy long thread which I missed some in the middle - so if someone brought this up already i apologize and please ignore. 

One thing i Have noticed while playing as Reva that may lead to the "over powered" feel is the ease in which she can generate corpse markers. it only takes 4 wounds for her Shield Bearers to drop markers and it is my common tactic to burn a stone on anything turn one to fire them way up the field (with the granted fast) to do exactly that. Plus Reva's Corpse Candles drop markers to and are summoned at the incredible low price of a card. 

 

When I first started playing her I was using the Corpse Candles as shepards of sorts to keep moving around corpse markers ... but after a few games I realized that the amount of markers being dropped made that unnecessary for damage and reach options (still useful of course if you are using Reva or the Carrion Emissary to turn them to scheme markers later. 

Reva can summon and kill a Corpse Candle every turn - guaranteeing a corpse marker with an added effect usually - all for the cost of one card. (it is limited by having to be at the start of activation and within 8) but I think that is one of the most effective corpse marker generating mechanics in Ressers. 

 

All this being said I love Reva - her play style, models, and theme got me into this faction. It saddens me that she may be considered by so many to be a NPE. 

 

Anyways just something I have noticed that I didn't see in this thread when skimming through the discussion. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Typically I've found that it's the combined triple threat of Reva, the Carrion Emissary with My Little Helper and Yin with My Little Helper that tends to make her so obnoxious. The walls block important parts of the table and make mindless zombies for her to hit out of - and Yin gives you the ability to just mark a model for death almost for sure once a turn. Reva attacks the marked model (who's now at a negative to Wp duels) and makes mince meat of it because of Decaying Aura.

Just my 2c.

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It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that a strong master with very unique mechanics cause people grief. Auatringers and the pigapult are some of the most lamented models in the game because they have long threat ranges that ignore conventional defences like blocking LoS.

Reva has a very similar feel to face except she doesn't ping your 4ss scheme runner for a couple of points of damage, she can often completely delete one of your models with strong defenses that you thought would tank half the opposing list for acouple of turns and she does it more or less while you're hanging around in your deployment zone. People don't like to loose 10+ ss models in a single activation, especialky from 20" away and put of LoS. It's why Leveticus was also getting an arguably worse rep than he deserved.

A dedicated player will find ways to counter anything but if you play mostly casual and run into her without having some serious counter strategies you're going to have a bad time.

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27 minutes ago, Astrella said:

But how is she like power level wise though; is it as doom and gloom overpowered as people thought when she had just come out?

She's definitely strong. One of the things that makes one of the more competitive (newer to Ressers) players in my area excited about her is that she answers some of the hard questions asked by horde summoners who can choke the board with disposable elements and prevent Resser beaters from getting into position.

A lot of the 'doom and gloom' was  the initial expression of shock. People weren't used to facing the ranged threat of Rasputina or Sonnia in a Ressers crew. Nellie's control, Parker's scheming, and Sandeep are all (in various degrees) getting similar responses as they enter into the meta.

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I think once people get a bit of time to work on her we'll be seeing more Sue being merc'd in for his corpse removal, maybe some Thunderous Smash getting taken more on Mei (though Vent Steam will help as well). Remove Reva's forward corpses and she's at least slowed down on the ranged murderousness, maybe to the point of having to move up to where she can be counter charged. That's my read from a few games so far. She's definiyely tough, but play to your schemes, wait for the right moment, and she can be dealt with.

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I haven't played with or against her yet, but I haven't seen anything that makes me think she's stronger than say Lilith using tangle shadows to pull models into Nekima effectively killing what you want without risking Nekima. Nor do I see her as being as difficult to face as Pandora. What about a 3ss Will 'o Wisp copying 2AP actions and generating Voodoo Dolls and Teddies? I think the newer models when they are released tend to be a tad stronger than some of the older models. Maybe the answer is not cuddling new models but a free 0ss upgrade buff to old models that start to slip behind the power curve, this also avoids errata cards which tends to be annoying. Also if a model is too hard why not introduce after testing other faction counter models that can be used verses it if necessary. I don't see the big deal with Reva but maybe that's just because I have yet to play with or against her!

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1 hour ago, Moondog said:

I haven't played with or against her yet, but I haven't seen anything that makes me think she's stronger than say Lilith using tangle shadows to pull models into Nekima effectively killing what you want without risking Nekima. Nor do I see her as being as difficult to face as Pandora. What about a 3ss Will 'o Wisp copying 2AP actions and generating Voodoo Dolls and Teddies? I think the newer models when they are released tend to be a tad stronger than some of the older models. Maybe the answer is not cuddling new models but a free 0ss upgrade buff to old models that start to slip behind the power curve, this also avoids errata cards which tends to be annoying. Also if a model is too hard why not introduce after testing other faction counter models that can be used verses it if necessary. I don't see the big deal with Reva but maybe that's just because I have yet to play with or against her!

I would vastly prefer creating new models in line with the current power curve over 0ss upgrades. Even the errata option that Lucius and Tara got is better in my eyes. Having a "buff" that restricts your upgrade use is really annoying in most cases. Not that there aren't any strong masters from waves 1 and 2.

Lilith has lower range on tangle and needs to beat the opposing wp with ca 5, there are a lot of models who laugh that off. She also needs to place Nekima where the model was so Nekima is hardly safe from retaliation. Not to mention that Nekima doesn't ignore reduction and ss use like Reva does. Some crews are squishy and the raw damage is better but a lot of crews have armor +1 or even armor +2 on every model in the crew so ignoring that along with soulstones is not something to sniff at.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, a few points to make here.

First, this model has been in the meta for  bout eight months now, and people are still using the excuse "well just wait and see" or "people will figure out how to beat her soon". Lets face it, if anyone had found an easy solution to the 'reva problem' we'd know by now.

Second, competitive players do have her figured out. That's why you're seeing the reva lists with yin, MLH, and those shenanigans. Related to this is the fact that every faction has some master or strategy that is obnoxiously powerful. Reva is on par with these other 'o.p.' masters. I think the bigger problem is that we clearly have tier 1 and tier 2 masters that are no where near the same power level in competitive settings.

Finally, I've yet to actually play against reva, but in my experience [I've done plenty of playtesting for this game] the only part of her that really looks out of line is the low cost to summon a corpse candle and her litany of the fallen upgrade. The corpse candle being able to pop itself for a 0 action, but only costing reva a card to summon makes them crazy easy to use for setting up attacks and turn into free corpse markers. And the upgrade gives her attacks a trigger, that she has the crow built in for, that ignores far too many defenses.

The bigger offender here is my little helper, which really is an insane buff for only 2ss. I think that one might need the hammer more than reva does.

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3 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

So, a few points to make here.

First, this model has been in the meta for  bout eight months now, and people are still using the excuse "well just wait and see" or "people will figure out how to beat her soon". Lets face it, if anyone had found an easy solution to the 'reva problem' we'd know by now.

Second, competitive players do have her figured out. That's why you're seeing the reva lists with yin, MLH, and those shenanigans. Related to this is the fact that every faction has some master or strategy that is obnoxiously powerful. Reva is on par with these other 'o.p.' masters. I think the bigger problem is that we clearly have tier 1 and tier 2 masters that are no where near the same power level in competitive settings.

Finally, I've yet to actually play against reva, but in my experience [I've done plenty of playtesting for this game] the only part of her that really looks out of line is the low cost to summon a corpse candle and her litany of the fallen upgrade. The corpse candle being able to pop itself for a 0 action, but only costing reva a card to summon makes them crazy easy to use for setting up attacks and turn into free corpse markers. And the upgrade gives her attacks a trigger, that she has the crow built in for, that ignores far too many defenses.

The bigger offender here is my little helper, which really is an insane buff for only 2ss. I think that one might need the hammer more than reva does.

The rules have been out for 8 months, but the actual model isn't released yet. That still means that not that many people will have faced Reva. Some people Proxy, and some people bought pre-release versions, but I think its reasonable to still say wait and see. Its much easier to think up a powerful list than think up answers to the list, I would expect if I played someone of comparable stand to me with a new master of equal power to my master, the old master would win the first game or two, (As the player learnt how the new mastwer actually worked) and then the new master would win the next 3 or 4 games (as they have worked out how to play, and I would have to work out how to counter) and then it would go back to equal results. 

 

That said I don't think there is an "easy" solution to Reva, nor should there be. I've only had limited exposure to her, (played against her once, watched her played a couple more times) and whilst I don't think she is a push over, I don't feel she is unbeatable, or even the best Resser master. 

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