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Reva wrecking face?


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2 hours ago, Bengt said:

It's kind of odd that it took so long for the rat engine to be a "big thing" as there is an article in Chronicles 14 (October 2014) singing its praise and encouraging Outcast players to use it with other masters. The article doesn't mention Killjoy but it points out how much for instance the Viks can benefit from activation control.

 

2 hours ago, Myyrä said:

It's odd that everyone didn't notice it at the first glance of Obedient Wretch.

The Rat Engine was tested during the Book 2 open beta at least with Hamelin. I posted 2 battle reports using the Rat Engine + Infectious Melodies to deliver Killjoy with Hamelin, and there were other people who played around with it as well. Unfortunately, I can't remember whether the Rat Engine was tested with the Viks or Levy during the beta. Apparently, it just took awhile to catch on in the tournament scene, or maybe it just took awhile for everyone to become aware of how it was taking over the tournament scene.

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20 hours ago, Terwox said:

Ten Thunders has Toshiro, who summons off of corpses.  That's pretty good against Reva -- you turn her corpse candles into your Ashigaru.

Just for clarification I assume you mean after Toshiro (or something else) has killed the Corpse Candle that he can then attempt to summon an Ashigaru from the resulting Corpse Marker if you have the Command the Graves upgrade attached to him?

Corpse Candles and Mindless Zombies are only considered Corpse Markers to friendly models, not opponents models.

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1 minute ago, Omenbringer said:

Just for clarification I assume you mean after Toshiro (or something else) has killed the Corpse Candle that he can then attempt to summon an Ashigaru from the resulting Corpse Marker if you have the Command the Graves upgrade attached to him?

Corpse Candles and Mindless Zombies are only considered Corpse Markers to friendly models, not opponents models.

 

Yep, you got it.  Corpse candles die very easily.  

Toshiro seems like a decent pick against Ressers in general if you can make him fit.

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18 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Her one advantage over Seamus is her ability to attack from greater safety--~21" compared to Seamus' 10".

This is true but to be fair, Seamus is a bit silly these days now that he can shoot his gun three times a turn, attack Wp or Df with it and thus circumvent most Triggers and Def stance and such while also ignoring Armor.

 

 

 

:P;) 

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Going more back on topic--my comments on Hamelin then seem off base. It seemed an appropriate comparison given the information I understood, but now I think differently.

As to defending Reva from the cuddle bat again, recently played at a local tourney.

First round was vs. Viks, corner deployment, strategy was interference, Viks took search the ruins and show of force, Reva took inspection and convict labor. Tied because I was one activation away from winning on time. I would have denied Search the Ruins, but had the game gone to Turn 5, I'm unsure I would have maintained the lead given I lost my Emissary and Viks had only lost Vanessa and student of conflict. Tie was 4:4.

Second round was vs. Perdita, standard deployment, strategy was guard the stash, Perdita took Frame for murder on Papa Loco and Hunting Party, Reva took Frame for murder on Emissary and Hunting Party. I won because Carrion Emissary RJ'd damage against Perdita, which double blast into Nino for 4 damage--Perdita SS only prevented 1 damage, leaving her at 3/4 Wds, and she in a last cry killed Emissary in 1 activation. Reva was able to finish off Perdita using 3AP to finally hit her and discard a corpse marker for her 4/5/6 track--Df/Wp 7 is no joke--and used her 0 to kill Nino. The unusual event went downhill from there because no Perdita or Nino leaves a Perdita crew fairly toothless. Score was 10:4. 

Third round was vs. Asami, CLOSE DEPLOYMENT, strategy was Headhunter, Asami took Detonate Charges and something else (did not score), Reva took Detonate Charges and Quick Murder (Jorogumo hire). Asami player made the mistake of moving Asami and crew up the board as much as possible so she could set up her own attacks for devour, Jorogumo, and flicker tricks. But, that was a lot of AP to get to me, and I was able to put Asami, who only has Wp 5, to 1 Wd Turn 1 with Reva--blew my whole hand to do it, but by this point it was pretty clear Asami's summons didn't have the ability to finish my people off. Turn 2 Asami healed to 5 via her marker discard, Reva attacked with all 3 AP to finish her, 0 teleport. Vincent actually did something by solo-killing my Jorogumo target--the +2 damage from built in trigger is pretty nice if it works, and Jorogumo are not very good defensively beyond Df 6 (might be 5, but I attacked 3 times between a repeat trigger and a severe flip somewhere in there). A very important note was I deployed back from the center line, knowing the schemes didn't allow for scoring without getting close to or engaging the opponent, while my opponent deployed as far up as possible. Score was 10:3. 

Of those 3 rounds, only one was an actual landslide for play, mostly due to the Asami player not being familiar with Reva and unlikely familiar with Raspy. I wasn't familiar with Asami, but I play Molly, so I understand generic summoning tactics. Asami probably shouldn't have used 2AP Turn 1 to walk and then summon a Jorogumo into my team. Additionally, telegraphing schemes by dropping 2 scheme markers on the center line for detonate charges (convict labor seemed unlikely given close deployment) really hurt Asami's AP efficiency. Decaying Aura is also a pain if your master depends on healing and SS not to die. Finally, and most importantly, the terrain set up was a bunch of low Ht buildings, fences, and some mesas that  measured < 2" but we defined as Ht 2. It was a perfect storm for Reva to murder oncoming units as it was close deployment, strategy and schemes prevented scoring without being near enemy models or interacting with them, and my opponent's local Reva player, in my opponent's own words, was not very good--not saying that Reva player is bad, but he/she never utilizes fast tricks, Corpse Bloat, etc. to attack a variety of defensive stats while generating greater AP efficiency. 

In hindsight I probably would have lost the Viks game had it gone to Turn 5 barring bad decisions by Viks or lucky flips/hands for me. Perdita match was unusual because Emissary getting RJ damage on a master was just luck--Perdita figured a negative flip wouldn't result in 6 damage coming through after SS prevention.

 

43 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

This is true but to be fair, Seamus is a bit silly these days now that he can shoot his gun three times a turn, attack Wp or Df with it and thus circumvent most Triggers and Def stance and such while also ignoring Armor.

 

 

 

:P;) 

 

Reva offers more damage, yes, but potentially less efficient. Does this mean Seamus > Reva? Not necessarily, because Reva can attack from further away and can ultimately do more damage. Seamus has to move to be within 10" of an enemy model to shoot. He's also much easier to hit than Reva, but the balance is he is one of the most resilient masters in the game for his uncapped healing ability. Reva's healing is not capped either, but it's much harder to trigger, heals half the amount per instance, and goes against her maximizing her range.

Different masters with different very different play styles--in GG 2016 the difference may not be as noticeable or pan out as much as it does in the core rule book schemes, but they are more efficient for different strategy and schemes pools. I was playing against a Nellie player and we agreed to play Reva v. Nellie, but once we flipped the strategy and schemes I noted I would much rather have played Seamus to give me access to 2 of the schemes that were much less favorable for Reva--they were Leave Your Mark and Catch and Release. 

I don't want to fight over whether Reva is strictly better than Seamus, but I bring up the point above, based on max damage calculations, because if Reva's damage efficiency is compared to Seamus, a mostly middle tier master, I'm happy. It means Reva does good damage, but she isn't at a meta destroying level. 

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Math was comparing Seamus and Reva--Reva can hit 3 times against Df or Wp while ignoring defensive triggers depending on the stat she attacks. She can also avoid Defensive stance by targeting Wp and potentially ignores armor with a 2 SS upgrade. Seamus can shoot against Df only and doesn't have those advantages, though his raw damage output is comparable and arguably as efficient, if not slightly more. 

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3 minutes ago, Wifstrand said:

 

Was there some errata I missed??

He's exaggerating.

 

In theory, Reva's damage output directly ties to how many corpses she can litter the field with.   Generally speaking, no one I've played with really *cares* about corpse generation because the corpses themselves weren't  really a manageable threat (Nico, for example doesn't get his corpses removed because generally he only 1 or 2 to be a huge nuisance).  Does Reva have a much harder time when her opponent is much more aggressive about cleaning up the field?  In theory it's counter-picking more then I'd like, but it might just a a slide in the anti-resser meta. 

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Having recently played against her in a tournament I brought the arcane Emmisary (not so much as a counter pick as just a good pick in its own right).  His ability to clear all of the corpse markers within :pulse 3 after a charge really made my opponent frustrated with me removing Reva's attack vectors.

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55 minutes ago, Rogue1 said:

Having recently played against her in a tournament I brought the arcane Emmisary (not so much as a counter pick as just a good pick in its own right).  His ability to clear all of the corpse markers within :pulse 3 after a charge really made my opponent frustrated with me removing Reva's attack vectors.

There's also 40mm+ models that sit on top of corpses so as to deny their use for the most part. I've had that happen a couple times.

Asami turns all corpse markers into extra turns of activation as well for her summons.

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2 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Asami turns all corpse markers into extra turns of activation as well for her summons.

And there I start to feel that maybe we are seeing balance within the book 4 Masters. Titty-Anna and Asami either punish you for placing scrap and corpse markers, or gain a decent benefit from it.

That's off the top of my head. But 3 out of the 7 (Reva against Reva) can punish you for dropping corpse markers everywhere. So that's not a bad start. We all know the entire Resser faction can punish you for it also. 

Maybe us players that think Reva is powerful but within the realms of the game should create a list of models/abilities that can discard/make use of corpse markers to stop peoples bleating?

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I think that's a good idea. I only know a few off the top of my head but here they are. I think one of the new gremlins models can eat corpses or some kind of marker to heal Wds.

Universal Option: Aionus

Guild: Lady J

Arcanists: Emissary, Mechanical Rider

Ressers: Spare Parts, Corpse Bloat, Muahahah, Philip, Carrion Emissary, Nico, Seamus, Reva, Toshiro, Archie

TT: Toshiro, Asami

Neverborn: Lilith, Emissary (I think his 50mm markers are blocking)

Outcasts: Leve (Toshiro, Archie, Philip)

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26 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

I think that's a good idea. I only know a few off the top of my head but here they are. I think one of the new gremlins models can eat corpses or some kind of marker to heal Wds.

Universal Option: Aionus

Guild: Lady J

Arcanists: Emissary, Mechanical Rider

Ressers: Spare Parts, Corpse Bloat, Muahahah, Philip, Carrion Emissary, Nico, Seamus, Reva, Toshiro, Archie

TT: Toshiro, Asami

Neverborn: Lilith, Emissary (I think his 50mm markers are blocking)

Outcasts: Leve (Toshiro, Archie, Philip)

Some more:

The Judge has Final Response like Lady J.

Gaki can eat corpse markers to heal, Carrion Effigy can give a similar ability to the leader.

Mysterious Emissary's markers are not blocking (only hazardous, severe) but he do a have trigger on his attack to discard the usual markers in :pulse4.

Freikorps Specialist (mercenary) remove corpse and scrap without AP.

Steam Trunk give a (0) to friendly models to remove corpse and scrap.

Mei Feng has a trigger to remove the usual markers.

Leveticus, Rusty Alice, Abominations, Desolation Engine, A&D prevents models from dropping corpse markers when they kill them with the Desolate Warping trigger (the Abomination summon).

Sue (mercenary) has a trigger to remove corpse and scrap markers.

 

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I believe however that some people are saying the biggest problem with Reva is that you have to make your crew specifically to face her. Malifaux has generally been a game where you built your crew to succeed at your strats/schemes and you didn't have to build around your opponent's list (necessarily). Of course if you know who you will be facing or general strengths of a faction you might build to help that. Reva almost makes you build your crew to face 'Reva', not just Resurrectionists.  I think this is where some people are having trouble.

I do feel though that the best faction to face Reva is actually Resurrectionists. I would love to play Nicodem against Reva :) That can go for many dedicated summoner as well, with Asami being the most recent addition. taking just one model that can summon limited (like Toshiro) may not make a huge dent in Reva's corpse count though. I know some people have tried and found it an uphill battle. Nicodem or Asami can use up several corpses in one summon, making them much more efficient. The Steam trunk giving the (0) action to others nearby could also be good, but that means they're not using one of their own, often better, (0) actions. 

Taking out corpses when possible is a good tactic in general against Reva, but if you focus too much on that you will lose valuable APs. If you can do it while also accomplishing something else that will help you gain VP (summoning a new model, healing, etc.) then great. Blocking her LOS is also good, but not easily available to all factions. 

People will lose their fear of her abilities soon and just start coping with her reach. If you face her you just have to know that you will be losing models and plan for that. 

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Right now, when your opponent declares ressers, you know you may be facing negative conditions, resistent models (hard to wound or incorporeal) and strong casts (lures, take your meds..). With Reva, the importance of teking away corpses becomes more important, but if you have condition removal, you can shut down some of her tricks (yin or vincent). If you also have some anti casting tech, she will struggle a lot.

Yes, if you don know she will be coming, you may not have the best counter, but many thins that work against ressers will work against her

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9 hours ago, Bengt said:

Some more:

Freikorps Specialist (mercenary) remove corpse and scrap without AP.

Leveticus, Rusty Alice, Abominations, Desolation Engine, A&D prevents models from dropping corpse markers when they kill them with the Desolate Warping trigger (the Abomination summon).

Sue (mercenary) has a trigger to remove corpse and scrap markers.

 

Specialist - you need to keep him close to opponent because his gun has 10'' range only and his walk is dreadful so if you want to add to this corpse marker removal task then he is vulnerable like hell and just friendly reminder - Reva ignores Armour and cover ;)

Levi and other Abomination summoners - you need proper suit to do this trick so except Levi and Rusty who can burn SS to turn enemy model in Abomination it is not reliable way to counter Reva and her corpse marker tricks.

Sue - needs a suit to pull of this trick so you rely heavily on your luck with cards. Small note: in my game against Reva I brought Sue to actually do this trick as much as possible but thanks to the lack of proper cards (and bad flips) he didn't achieve any single success in this area...

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Outcasts can hire many of the non-master Resser options for manipulating corpse markers, given so many of them are undead. I put in Leve because he's the master who would do it that way. 

I have to disagree that malifaux is just building the crew you want to accomplish the schemes and playing around your opponent, at least as a general maxim. Meta as a gaming scene term describes players' game piece selections to better compete in a given field of players.

Players may use the idea of building for schemes, but they're generally tooling for their opponent to best support chances of winning--by winning I mean have fun or to win in VP. Otherwise model variety would be rather pointless except for power ramp. 

You should have to consider your opponent may play an unorthodox master. Seamus fills that role in Ressers. One of the major selling points for Outcasts as a faction is each master operates very differently--excluding ratjoy. Nellie does that now in a much more major, and imo concerning, way for guild. If you choose not to tool for Reva and your opponent takes her, he/she should get a benefit for you choosing not to prepare. 

In the last few posts or so several people have listed multiple options for every faction to deal with corpse markers specifically.  That means no faction can complain there are no answers--they're choosing not to use them in the event Reva is picked. If you picked those options and your opponent picks Kirai, then you incorrectly read your opponent. 

It's part of gaming to surprise someone with a dark horse pick or game new options in picking meta. Doesn't mean Reva should be Cuddled because she requires putting in special tech for her. 

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1 hour ago, benjoewoo said:

In the last few posts or so several people have listed multiple options for every faction to deal with corpse markers specifically.  That means no faction can complain there are no answers--they're choosing not to use them in the event Reva is picked.

You do realize that the Gremlin side that has been listed, for example, is two models one of which is generally considered one of the worst in the Faction and is an extremely easy prey for Reva to boot, right? So that leaves one 10SS Henchman who has a (0)Action to remove one Corpse Marker very close to him. And Guild has one Master who is not the best choice for all Schemes and Strats and then Judge whose ability to "deal" with Corpse Markers is that models that he kills don't drop them. So yeah, that's not a very wide range of counters to say the least.

If the take home message is that Reva doesn't need to be weakened since you can always play Lady Justice against her then I'm not sure very many people will agree with that message.

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15 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

You do realize that the Gremlin side that has been listed, for example, is two models one of which is generally considered one of the worst in the Faction and is an extremely easy prey for Reva to boot, right? So that leaves one 10SS Henchman who has a (0)Action to remove one Corpse Marker very close to him. And Guild has one Master who is not the best choice for all Schemes and Strats and then Judge whose ability to "deal" with Corpse Markers is that models that he kills don't drop them. So yeah, that's not a very wide range of counters to say the least.

If the take home message is that Reva doesn't need to be weakened since you can always play Lady Justice against her then I'm not sure very many people will agree with that message.

This could be a back-handed way to improving the stock of corpse removal tech?  There's a lot of it "out there" in varying degrees of good as you note, but it's "generally considered" wasted value because corpse markers just aren't threatening enough by themselves.  Not saying this is an excuse for Reva to run free as is (only ever had one game against her, it went poorly but that was my deck more then anything).

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OK, maybe I'm being dense, but I just don't see how 3 long ranged attacks that in the most likely of scenarios are going to be damage 3 with a hitting stat of 6 (won't deny the power of choosing Df or Wp though) is generating sooooo many issues for people. Perdita has been doing this for ages and with more reliable damage spikes, yet Reva is suddenly an insane mess?. Yes, for a cost she can also stop stone use and ignore a good chunk of defenses, but still, it's 3 attacks per turn with ok stats, 4 if they go for the upgrade with the charge which also means Reva can now get her teeth kicked in. I expected people to get caught off guard at the start, but once the smoke settled, avoiding corpses the first turn should be relatively easy and from then onwards accepting a couple of hits will land per turn and do your mission. Reva's 100% reliably and flexible threat comes from her dumping her own corpse candle at the start of the activation which is pretty close to the threat you are getting from the Carrion Emissary or Lovelace with their also damage most likely 3 guns, she can push it, but now she is down to 2 attacks, outside of that, it is decently telegraphed where the ugly area is going to be. She is also surprisingly easy to kill if you just bumrush her, I remember a match where Perdita just nuked her in an activation.

I insist, I may just be missing the point, but I fail to see how such a straightforward bruiser can be considered one of the scarier masters in the wave when in my eyes she is on the bottom of the pack (Nellie and Asami I feel are a lot scarier for example and Titania can do some evil stuff too).

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Well, I'm not sure if Dita can attack from across the table ignoring most of the defensive abilities and cover not to mention if she can decide whether to attack Df or Wp but I might be wrong. 

You know, Levi was a straightforward bruiser as well and see how much cuddle he needed.

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The things I would take in Arcanists to counter corpse markers (Mei Feng with kick upgrade, Arcane Emissary) are models I'm already bringing for other reasons, so there's no real focus on anti-Reva in that crew hiring session. If my opponent is playing Ressers and I've declared Arcanists, there's a bit of bluff-counterbluff on what's going to be on the table for both of us (that depends heavily on what the local Meta has been churning out), but my top master grabs in general are Mei Feng and Ironsides. In either case there's going to be some 40mm+ bases on the table, and in either case the Emissary helps dial up what the masters are selected for. If my resser opponent does not drop Reva, I'm not hurting because the options I have for countering corpse markers do it as a side effect of doing their real job: the Arcane Emissary does it as an optional side effect of charging, and if its charging in it's doing the job I hired it for.

I'm not sure why the Mechanical Rider is listed as a counter, as she doesn't actually do anything to corpse markers (except maybe camp on them, but if she's camping she's not doing what I hired her for). Summoning gamin/spiders to keep Reva engage is an interesting idea, but takes some set up and puts the Rider somewhere where her life expectancy drops.

 

Other factions (and even other Arcanist players) will have a different take on this, because if they feel that the only way to deal with one specific master is to bring a specific master, crew build, or model that they don't normally use it will drastically affect their game play. It's different than not bringing a specific master/build because of a single master (i.e. Guild player not playing Perdita into clustering strat/scheme pools because they're concerned about Mei Feng) because other options exist that can play well into crew builds from that master's faction portfolio. You're going from skipping a single master in order to drop one of several others to skipping all others in favor of one master; just in case your opponent drops a specific master/crew. It looks to me like many in the overpowered camp feel like this. Whether or not it is true will shake out over time.

 

Related to time: there's still the whole "shiny new" thing going on. She hasn't been out very long and people are still feeling their way around with her. There's a chance that people using her are accidentally doing something wrong, and that's making her more effective than intended (I did this with Ironsides when I was first learning to use her). There's a chance that there's some interactions that are coming up that weren't tested as thoroughly as others. There's also the strong chance that people are facing her who haven't (as was recommended on page 6 of this thread) had the opportunity to try and play as Reva to learn where the fragile points are. I put emphasis on this because when you understand the strengths and weaknesses well enough, your range of options to counter her opens wide.

If you can't or don't want to play as Reva, after you play against Reva do an after action review of the match. Some of the usual boilerplate questions are along the lines of "what can I do better?"; ask it in a different way: "what were you most concerned about with the crew I fielded?" If your opponent shares with you how they felt the game went and where they felt the most threatened, you learn the strengths and weaknesses as your opponent perceives them.

However you learn it, @Kadeton mentioned several things right away: she needs line of sight, to not be engaged, to not have Ca being neutered by counterspell (and other counters that work well against a wide range of masters and crews), and to have reliable sources of corpse tokens near where she wants to work. The focus on this page of the thread appears to be on tackling the reliable sources of corpse tokens via token removal. That's not the only lynch pin that can be pulled to undermine her power and influence, and there are many ways to monkey with the other three mentioned.

 

This being the Resser's subforum, as people play with Reva there might be posts to the community about crux moments in various strats/schemes and how to work around certain obstacles that are unique to Reva within those strats and schemes. Until those show up, talk to your local Reva players and local meta in general. You'll probably find that the more competitive players in your meta that aren't playing Reva have already cooked up some counters of their own. If they won't share with you during a casual conversation because you play Reva... play Reva into them and see how they counter her. If you don't play Reva, watch a game where they are playing into Reva (regional tournaments that draw in players from outside your meta are a great way to learn about variations of crews).

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2 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Well, I'm not sure if Dita can attack from across the table ignoring most of the defensive abilities and cover not to mention if she can decide whether to attack Df or Wp but I might be wrong. 

You know, Levi was a straightforward bruiser as well and see how much cuddle he needed.

Dita has a 12 or 14" range, which, while not inconsiderable, isn't the same as Reva's, though Reva needs set up, Dita does not. Both get limited when engaged as to targeting, but Dita gets more deadly when engaged, Reva does not. Reva is Ca 6, Dita is Sh 7. Both have options for amping up damage, Reva's requires corpses, Dita's, Rams. Reva can choose defense stat, Dita can't. Reva's naturally ignores Incorporeal, Dita needs an upgrade to do so. Dita can get around cover and Armor, I believe, as well, while Reva can get around any type of prevention.

Levi actually didn't get a huge cuddle, though that might be what you're saying, not sure. The change to Channel was a hit, but a relatively small one. He's still far more difficult to remove than Reva, and naturally ignores things that Reva needs an Upgrade to get around, though his overall damage scale is smaller than Reva's, he also ignores things like Hard to Wound, and Hard to Kill, which Reva does not.

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