Reva wrecking face?

[Kadeton]

1 hour ago, Manic Mouse said:

I don't buy the "she can't deal with beat sticks" at range argument.

*shrug* It's been my experience, YMMV. When she's only hitting about half the time, and only doing 3 damage (or less, with prevention) per hit, I tend to feel like I'm wasting her activations by beating on hard targets. I really like that she can take a bunch of combo pieces to really put the hurt on something that sticks its neck out, but so far I haven't found sitting in her deployment zone to be useful or effective compared to moving up the board and pushing her crew around. It's a lot like a Nico/Kirai/Ramos summoning engine hanging back and spamming models - looks great on paper, in practice it ignores all the Master's other strengths and removes their ability to properly influence the board state.

[benjoewoo]

14 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

*shrug* It's been my experience, YMMV. When she's only hitting about half the time, and only doing 3 damage (or less, with prevention) per hit, I tend to feel like I'm wasting her activations by beating on hard targets. I really like that she can take a bunch of combo pieces to really put the hurt on something that sticks its neck out, but so far I haven't found sitting in her deployment zone to be useful or effective compared to moving up the board and pushing her crew around. It's a lot like a Nico/Kirai/Ramos summoning engine hanging back and spamming models - looks great on paper, in practice it ignores all the Master's other strengths and removes their ability to properly influence the board state.

I haven't been too impressed with Blood Mark, but I haven't explored it enough to see how I could more effectively use it. I wholeheartedly agree about Reva's inconsistent ability to hit people--she can  get CCK's damage track if she pitches a corpse marker, but unless you can set up a number of early corpses, her triggers are largely irrelevant--the push won't matter if you only have one corpse anyway, the heal doesn't do anything if you're in a safe position, both limited upgrade triggers are only conditionally relevant based on Reva's position and the enemy crew make up, and her discard for +1 damage trigger will only upgrade one attack before forcing you to use her remaining AP to push other people or walk around.

Also, my opinion of Vincent is dropping. I don't think you'll often want to run Izamu over a RN with Reva, so you can put Decaying Aura with Littany on Reva to duplicate Vincent's 0 for her without risking a missed cast at half the cost. Without that 0, Vincent can either sacrifice corpse markers for his conditional damage, bad for Reva's future activations, or he can attempt to shoot at models you've likely engaged in melee to protect Reva or just kill things, meaning you randomize unless you're running a mostly spirit crew. But if you're running mostly spirits, where will your corpses come from? With that extra 4SS, I could make room for a larger model with upgrades, a crooligan, etc.

[Runeman]

I think this development in masters also serves to enhance the all purpose feel of a Von Schill crew with lots of Freikorps. Anybody within 4" of the steam trunk can remove corpse markers in a 4" pulse as a (0), coupled with the immunity to blast and pulse damage and unimpeded and armor makes that particular crew ignore a lot of annoying tricks. If I declared Ressers and my opponent declared outcasts I'd think twice before using Reva as such a Von Schill crew can really neuter her specialty. Or am I missing something?

[TheJoyInGaming]

I'm thinking that Vincent is a drop for me. I've never gotten use out of him and i hate that i have to randomize except in corner case situations.

@benjoewoo I think it is best to use Reva as an assassin on smaller models or near death/ weakened models. While Ca6 with choice of df or wp is nice, if you are facing a rather defensively strong model it can lead to a waste of AP for Reva. I play against Misaki alot and the most annoying model to clear off the board is Torakage because of their 6/6 stats. I've also found that assigning one henchman to lead her Shieldbearers can make them resilient scheme runners. Though i was attempting to avoid it because it is a little gimmicky, i have grown to love Toshiro with 3 Shieldbearers and some other minions. I can push an ashigaru and stone and that gives me 4 models with fast. With Toshiro's constant vigor abuse it and  for minion attacks it can lead to alot more corpses because of the dismember triggers and they can scheme run when necessary. 

A small question regarding your choice of upgrades. Did you intend to charge as often as you did and if so why did you take Guises of Death over Beyond Death?

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

At least in this instance, I couldn't place enough effective corpse markers.

Note that the smaller than average game size might've had an effect. In bigger games there are generally both more Corpse Markers and more (worthwhile) targets.

[Bengt]

5 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

But if you're running mostly spirits, where will your corpses come from?

The expensive spirits are all undead. The cutoff is 6 SS with Jakkuna lacking undead and The Drowned having it. Though I don't know what characteristics Goryo in Ripples have, does he break the pattern?

[Kadeton]

7 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

I haven't been too impressed with Blood Mark, but I haven't explored it enough to see how I could more effectively use it.

I find it's great for moving things that need to be moved, basically. It lets models like Shieldbearers cover a remarkable amount of ground (and lets you turn their +2 Df on if you used the  to damage (0) for their activation), can give you another use of Vincent's killer (0), or just pulls a model out of engagement when it needs to do something else. In any set of schemes that require careful positioning or the ability to Interact, it's really useful.

7 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Also, my opinion of Vincent is dropping. I don't think you'll often want to run Izamu over a RN with Reva, so you can put Decaying Aura with Littany on Reva to duplicate Vincent's 0 for her without risking a missed cast at half the cost. Without that 0, Vincent can either sacrifice corpse markers for his conditional damage, bad for Reva's future activations, or he can attempt to shoot at models you've likely engaged in melee to protect Reva or just kill things, meaning you randomize unless you're running a mostly spirit crew. But if you're running mostly spirits, where will your corpses come from? With that extra 4SS, I could make room for a larger model with upgrades, a crooligan, etc.

In my games with Vincent so far, I think I've used his crossbow maybe four times. His great strength, in my opinion, is that absolutely unbelievable Df/Wp trigger - he's just impossible to pin down. This, combined with a potentially surprising amount of healing, makes him a truly excellent combat-zone scheme runner. He can happily do that while softening up key targets with At Peace and the occasional crossbow bolt, and his damage if there are corpses around goes from respectable to ridiculous. I wouldn't take him if I wanted to focus on killing things, but I'm still really impressed with him.

4 hours ago, Runeman said:

I think this development in masters also serves to enhance the all purpose feel of a Von Schill crew with lots of Freikorps. Anybody within 4" of the steam trunk can remove corpse markers in a 4" pulse as a (0), coupled with the immunity to blast and pulse damage and unimpeded and armor makes that particular crew ignore a lot of annoying tricks. If I declared Ressers and my opponent declared outcasts I'd think twice before using Reva as such a Von Schill crew can really neuter her specialty. Or am I missing something?

While it's a nice idea (and I'd love to see Von Schill dusted off and put on the table more) I think the missing caveat is probably the ability for Reva to reach out and touch the Trunk itself. It's both the easiest and most important model to kill in a Freikorps crew, and it has to be right up there in the midst of them to be useful.

One thing about Reva wanting to maintain clear lines of sight wherever possible is that she really sticks her neck out as a target for sniper fire, and the Freikorps are damn good at that. That's probably what would scare me most as a Reva player - just taking a constant barrage of fire from snipers that are constantly repositioning away from any Corpses I can get over to them, and shooting at that juicy difficult-to-hide Ht 3 target from outside her effective range. Nasty.

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

The expensive spirits are all undead. The cutoff is 6 SS with Jakkuna lacking undead and The Drowned having it. Though I don't know what characteristics Goryo in Ripples have, does he break the pattern?

Goryo are Spirit, Retainer.

[Paddywhack]

9 hours ago, Kadeton said:

*shrug* It's been my experience, YMMV. When she's only hitting about half the time, and only doing 3 damage (or less, with prevention) per hit, I tend to feel like I'm wasting her activations by beating on hard targets.

Decaying Aura on Reva.  It really does make taking Vincent optional as it does a big part of what you're hoping for with his (0). I'd still bring him if you expect a lot of Armour, but Decaying Aura is enough to neuter a lot of Henchman and Masters. You don't realize how important prevention can be for some models until you can't do it. That and if you do have her up in the thick of things the 4" no healing aura (on a 50mm base) is great. I really screwed up Asami with that. 

[benjoewoo]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Note that the smaller than average game size might've had an effect. In bigger games there are generally both more Corpse Markers and more (worthwhile) targets.

I agree with the first part. I excised some notes about the effects of a 35SS game on my still developing perspective, thinking it'd be one of the first things to come up. 

Cojo isn't exactly a great model, but represents a better than average model for Reva to target--henchmen, high Wd count, and is a significant threat that should be taken down before he causes too much damage. Marcus' box in general is full of worthwhile targets to hit--other than the jackalope, which wasn't in that particular game, all of the targets were worth Reva's attention given their high damage threats.

With that, I don't think finding worthwhile targets was an issue that game--it was that Reva being able to efficiently kill things. All of Marcus' beasts have at least Df/Wp 5, so Reva only has a slight advantage in hitting them. Add to that she doesn't have the movement or scheme tricks of Seamus, despite having a somewhat similar damage track, and she is a beater with the issue of actually landing a hit. With a 7-9 SS beater I expect skill rating 6 in trying to hit people with a decent damage track. Reva has that 6 skill rating with slightly better damage when including her triggers, but is a master.

2 hours ago, Bengt said:

The expensive spirits are all undead. The cutoff is 6 SS with Jakkuna lacking undead and The Drowned having it. Though I don't know what characteristics Goryo in Ripples have, does he break the pattern?

The undead spirits are: drowned, shikome, and hanged. For 6 SS hiring, I will probably never choose a drowned over a shield bearer--I would probably only run 2 shield bearers if I could help it, but in the growth league I'm somewhat limited. At that point, belles, necropunks, and nurses start coming, some heavy competition for those stones. At 8 SS, I'm unsure I'd want to hire a shikome--there's no direct synergy with Reva other than Blood Mark for potentially giving adversary (only useful for shikome and my other hired/converted spirits) or teleporting to a model that already has adversary. Reva would have to hire a model to hand out poison, which would essentially be Yin. But, Yin and shikome compete for the same slot at 8SS, and Yin is likely better for Reva. I would probably not hire Hanged, given they're not particularly good at scheme running, are fairly squishy for a Reva crew, and don't want to be in melee if they can help it.

[Bengt]

2 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

The undead spirits are: drowned, shikome, and hanged.

Datsue Ba, Philip, and Izamo are also undead spirit. Is there some reason you only want to hire minions?

[Math Mathonwy]

29 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Cojo isn't exactly a great model, but represents a better than average model for Reva to target--henchmen, high Wd count, and is a significant threat that should be taken down before he causes too much damage. Marcus' box in general is full of worthwhile targets to hit--other than the jackalope, which wasn't in that particular game, all of the targets were worth Reva's attention given their high damage threats.

Sorry, I was unclear. I did not mean that Cojo is an unworthy target (he is a great target, in fact!) but rather that it would be easier to find worthwhile targets in places more saturated with Corpse Markers in bigger games.

[benjoewoo]

2 hours ago, Bengt said:

Datsue Ba, Philip, and Izamo are also undead spirit. Is there some reason you only want to hire minions?

I was thinking for purposes of minions, and blipped on thinking of henchmen and enforcers. Those three are also great examples of undead spirits. I was planning to write a run down of what I think of each model's viability in Reva as a core model vs. situation specific model, but I think I need to try something with them. Reva likes elite units, and all three of the models you mention are elite models that may have some great synergy. There may be something that can properly utilize them, and maybe Vincent will see some more use for me in those builds. That being said, only playing the crew set ups I'm thinking about will show me. 

That being said, whether I'm right or wrong, in the main discussion on this thread, I think it's more clear that reasonable minds can differ on viability of Reva's included models. Also, fewer people in this particular thread are talking about how a skill rating 6 attack is bonkers with a 3/4/5 track outside of triggers, range extension included. That's good, or maybe people are just tired of reading and typing essentially the same thing. I personally haven't found Reva's range particularly overpowered--my last few games I've found I've wanted for more range and more corpses, and my opponents didn't feel overwhelmed--one even noted he should have focused on the schemes more than being distracted by Reva.

Sorry, I was unclear. I did not mean that Cojo is an unworthy target (he is a great target, in fact!) but rather that it would be easier to find worthwhile targets in places more saturated with Corpse Markers in bigger games.

I understand, and agree that in larger games, I should be able to generate more corpses. Maybe, but I might face a crew that doesn't drop many corpses, e.g. Lady J, construct heavy crews, etc. In those cases, my increased corpse generation from having more models may only proportionally put out more corpses to create a similar situation to my box v box game despite physically putting down more, because Reva will realistically kill 1, maybe 2 models an activation depending on cards. Not much different than Seamus with the Bag, and the Bag has a bunch of useful triggers.

[TheJoyInGaming]

So i played the simpler game with an opponent. 40ss Encounter with only a Strategy flipped and i was describing my moves and thought processes in detail so that the opponent could get a better grasp on how to deal with Reva's extreme range. It was mostly a crew vs crew box of Reva vs. Misaki. I took Reva with Guises and Blood Mark. I have been gravitating away from Blood Mark the more i play but Kadeton's report of its usefulness greatly excited me so i thought i should mess around with it. I also took Toshiro with COtG and 3 Shieldbearers and Chiaki with POtG. Cache 7. 

I felt bad because the Strategy was Turf War. I deployed my extra Candle behind some HT3 Blocking terrain near the marker because i knew they would attempt to go there but Misaki downburst on a Torakage to push it away. Toshiro was crazy throughout the game. Between him and the SBers i had about 8 corpse markers everywhere after summoning 3 Ashigaru and 0ing for focused +1.  to Attack and being perpetually fast really make the Sbers overwhelming with extra corpse markers and damage. Also Blood Mark was very important early game in pushing models forward. For the first time i used the Candle's 0 for the buff to attacking an enemy model. I used Blood Mark on the Candle to push it 5 behind some blocking terrain and not only did the aforementioned 0 but by dropping a corpse there i allowed Reva to shoot around the corner. Overall i was very happy with my crew, especially not taking Vincent.

My opponent still felt a bit overwhelmed with Reva but was able to make some significant dents in her forces this time. Though they lost they are willing to try again next week. Its nice to have her unbanned!

 

[benjoewoo]

On 9/23/2016 at 5:10 AM, TheJoyInGaming said:

I'm thinking that Vincent is a drop for me. I've never gotten use out of him and i hate that i have to randomize except in corner case situations.

@benjoewoo I think it is best to use Reva as an assassin on smaller models or near death/ weakened models. While Ca6 with choice of df or wp is nice, if you are facing a rather defensively strong model it can lead to a waste of AP for Reva. I play against Misaki alot and the most annoying model to clear off the board is Torakage because of their 6/6 stats. I've also found that assigning one henchman to lead her Shieldbearers can make them resilient scheme runners. Though i was attempting to avoid it because it is a little gimmicky, i have grown to love Toshiro with 3 Shieldbearers and some other minions. I can push an ashigaru and stone and that gives me 4 models with fast. With Toshiro's constant vigor abuse it and  for minion attacks it can lead to alot more corpses because of the dismember triggers and they can scheme run when necessary. 

A small question regarding your choice of upgrades. Did you intend to charge as often as you did and if so why did you take Guises of Death over Beyond Death?

Beyond Death kept me in the game--because of it, I was able to take Cojo to 1Wd Turn 1, which saved me come Turn 2, allowing me to sustain until essentially Turn 4.

I charged once in the Marcus game because there was no way for me to get a model within 2" of one of the stash markers--ultimately pointless since I lost Vincent to a RJ damage flip, but at the time I had to do it to keep my then VP lead.

One thing to note about Toshiro though is his large opportunity cost. He's not particularly strong at fighting, and he requires using stones to give Shieldbearers fast while he uses a 0 to push another model and give it fast. Not a bad thing, but it's resource intensive to make your average minions slightly better. An extra 10AP on shield bearers is great for running schemes, pushing people around, and getting damage in, but that's 5 SS out of 7 SS starting to do that. Shield bearers getting fast Turn 1 can be huge, and at the right time will help turn the game or close it out, but it's a very resource intensive gimmick and I don't think it pans out well if you're stoning just to trigger vigor. I think of vigor like terrifying--get it as a side benefit mostly.

I'd be wary of running any model that doesn't fight particularly well on its own in a Reva crew. Getting fast as a side benefit is good because you were using the SS for something else anyway, but dedicating multiple SS to it could weigh down the crew, since you could hire other ugprades, a night terror, or hire a higher SS cost model with different crew choices. Barring you always have cards to discard for the SS regaining upgrades on shield bearers and you choose that upgrade exclusively, you don't get the SS back. Reva can't really summon without spare parts somewhere, so you don't win the attrition war usually, meaning she will generally want for elite fighting units and maybe a scheme runner. Shield bearers are better than most resser minions at fighting, but they're not particularly good scheme runners and their fighting is about average compared to the rest of the field, so making them slightly better isn't necessarily better than hiring stronger fighters in the first place.

[Surrealistik]

Blatantly broken master, needs a cuddle stat for all the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.

[TheTrans]

6 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Blatantly broken master, needs a cuddle stat for all the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.

Thanks for that amazing insight mate.

[TheJoyInGaming]

4 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Beyond Death kept me in the game--because of it, I was able to take Cojo to 1Wd Turn 1, which saved me come Turn 2, allowing me to sustain until essentially Turn 4.

I charged once in the Marcus game because there was no way for me to get a model within 2" of one of the stash markers--ultimately pointless since I lost Vincent to a RJ damage flip, but at the time I had to do it to keep my then VP lead.

One thing to note about Toshiro though is his large opportunity cost. He's not particularly strong at fighting, and he requires using stones to give Shieldbearers fast while he uses a 0 to push another model and give it fast. Not a bad thing, but it's resource intensive to make your average minions slightly better. An extra 10AP on shield bearers is great for running schemes, pushing people around, and getting damage in, but that's 5 SS out of 7 SS starting to do that. Shield bearers getting fast Turn 1 can be huge, and at the right time will help turn the game or close it out, but it's a very resource intensive gimmick and I don't think it pans out well if you're stoning just to trigger vigor. I think of vigor like terrifying--get it as a side benefit mostly.

I'd be wary of running any model that doesn't fight particularly well on its own in a Reva crew. Getting fast as a side benefit is good because you were using the SS for something else anyway, but dedicating multiple SS to it could weigh down the crew, since you could hire other ugprades, a night terror, or hire a higher SS cost model with different crew choices. Barring you always have cards to discard for the SS regaining upgrades on shield bearers and you choose that upgrade exclusively, you don't get the SS back. Reva can't really summon without spare parts somewhere, so you don't win the attrition war usually, meaning she will generally want for elite fighting units and maybe a scheme runner. Shield bearers are better than most resser minions at fighting, but they're not particularly good scheme runners and their fighting is about average compared to the rest of the field, so making them slightly better isn't necessarily better than hiring stronger fighters in the first place.

I agree about Toshiro and the SBers being gimmicky. The reason i am using it so often is because i don't have many models atm and tabletop RPGs have left some serious PTSD about critical failing on important actions. Toshiro mitigates this for me. Once i acquire more models i would cut the Shieldbearers down to 2 and take other minions or ill just replace Toshiro with The Valedictorian. The turn 1 fast is very important though and honestly Reva can accomplish this through Blood Mark and thats 1 stone vs Toshiro's 9. 

I will say that though this thread is about Reva wrecking face i do enjoy the thematic feel of her and Toshiro inspiring the ShieldBearers to cut extra bits off of people. 

[Surrealistik]

10 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Thanks for that amazing insight mate.

Why rehash what's already been said?

[Surrealistik]

3 minutes ago, aquenaton said:

I think right now both positions have exposed their arguments MANY times, so what we have left is to wait and see if the meta finds a way to play against Reva or if we can spect a cuddle before the normal realise 

My biggest concern by far is that her overpowered state isn't corrected before it's too late and becomes calcified after so many people buy her for that reason, and Wyrd consequently ends up worrying too much about alienating these purchasers. This is absolutely relevant because they have explicitly stated in the past that one of the key things that motivate their balance changes (or lackthereof) is the number of model owners who will be displeased by the cuddling of their purchase.

[TheTrans]

3 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

Why rehash what's already been said?

If you had a look at a lot of the recent posta. People are talking options and strats now, not just yelling at each other from both sides of the Reva is OP fence.

Also, again I don't think she is OP. Essentially...its like if you run Levi or Viks against a new player, it is horrid, as they don't know what is happening. It is the same as using Reva currently against an experienced player that has no idea about Reva, they are taken by suprise and spanked. Give it a few months and all will be well, trust me. 

 

Also be interesting to see where the bleating is prinarily coming from US/UK etc.

 

Also as to actually looking at the game as a whole instead of a master-killy vacume. I loathe that Vik of Blood can be a frame for murder target. I feel that will forever be more punishing than Reva in an actual scoring sense.

 

Also Dreamer summoning to me is a bit gross, it requires no resources outside of a few stones and cards. OP i say, especially the Lilu-Letu regen-full health summon by end of turn bullocks. OP I say..

[Omenbringer]

1 hour ago, TheTrans said:

If you had a look at a lot of the recent posta. People are talking options and strats now, not just yelling at each other from both sides of the Reva is OP fence.

Also, again I don't think she is OP. Essentially...its like if you run Levi or Viks against a new player, it is horrid, as they don't know what is happening. It is the same as using Reva currently against an experienced player that has no idea about Reva, they are taken by suprise and spanked. Give it a few months and all will be well, trust me. 

 

Also be interesting to see where the bleating is prinarily coming from US/UK etc.

 

Also as to actually looking at the game as a whole instead of a master-killy vacume. I loathe that Vik of Blood can be a frame for murder target. I feel that will forever be more punishing than Reva in an actual scoring sense.

 

Also Dreamer summoning to me is a bit gross, it requires no resources outside of a few stones and cards. OP i say, especially the Lilu-Letu regen-full health summon by end of turn bullocks. OP I say..

So your thinking is that experienced players (some of whom have played the game from the start and assisted in closed play testing for Malifaux) can not anticipate Reva's shtick and prepare appropriate counters? Reva is not that gimmicky, she is exceedingly good at what she does and is very straightforward in design. Seeing it coming doesn't mean that you will be able to counter it. Speaking historically these same defenses were made with 1st edition Hamelin when only a month after release the community noticed he was significantly above the power curve (it is worth mentioning that virtually every one of the recommended "fixes" was adopted when he was finally errated years later). The wait and see approach didn't work then and it is unlikely to work now.

The "bleating" as you call it is coming primarily from the US/ UK communities because those are the largest organized communities and also happen to have fairly experienced and competitive scenes. It might also have to do with the fact that both those communities are normal purchasers of pre-release products. Additionally many of the "bleeters" have actually played against Reva in games rather than simply looked at her stats on line or in the book.

As I have stated many times, while comparisons to Rasputina or the Viks (or any other Master) might seem relevant they really aren't, Reva doesn't require support models or Upgrades to do what she does. When you add those support models and upgrades however she is really ramped up. Reva also doesn't suffer from many of the disadvantages that the other comparison models do, particularly Rasputina.

As for the Dreamer, his summoning is hardly "no resources," he requires an expensive upgrade in order to summon anything other than Daydreams. He requires a suit, it has a high TN, the summoned model comes in with only 1 Wd, and also gives the Dreamer a Waking +1 condition which can take him out of the rotation if it gets high enough.  Additionally, as you point out it also usually requires a few stones and cards to do consistently, those are resources and in the case of Soul Stones one which does not replenish (normally). Lelu-and Lilitu is also a 14 SS investment unless you summon them, which of course requires an 11+ with suit requirement (so either SS or sacrifice of a Daydream), 2 AP to summon the pair, gives the Dreamer the Waking +2 condition, and they both are vulnerable until they can heal on their activation.

You can disagree that Reva is outside the games power curve but that is in no way any more valid than others opinions that she is. I tend to favor the group stating she is, as they are providing a bit more clarity on why they think so than the other argument that essentially boils it down to "learn how to play."

[TheTrans]

I can only comment on the playing her behalf.

The people of the OP camp seem to fall on the same things...which then move to and fro. Her most viable damage output is either 4ss of upgrades and her being in the thick of things (where she will get murdered, so kills the whole massive damage from safety) or from Vincent 8ss and relatively squishy and only allowing the full murder to be put down on one model. The Ignore armour trigger which costs 2 stones comes at the cost of her damage track not bouncing above the 3/4/5. Her tome charge trigger will become much less effective when people actually learn to stop letting it go through.

 

If she is making use of decaying aura she is well within harms way.

 

I will also say, that the games I've played with her,  my opponents have all been quite suprised about what she can do, upon the 2nd game or what not, they were certainly more cagey and fared much better. The moment people dedicate something to go after her...espcially after she has activated, she will feel the sting.

 

I copped a killjoy to the face one game from Molly and used all my stones and good cards to stop Reva going down. I then could do sweet FA due to the resources put into keeping her alive due to her hella squishiness.

The suprise is where I honestly feel a lot of butt-hurt is coming from. I would like to revisit the subject in 3-4 months when all the new masters are in the wild and people are well aware of Reva's schtick.

 

I also like she adds a strong enough damage potential to make her a possible pick over all the summoners that ressers have available.

[Fetid Strumpet]

To be fair, that's not entirely accurate. There was such an outcry against Decaying aura, unwarranted in my opinion, that they errata' it awhile ago. The aura only pertains to the no healing portion now. They changed it so that multiple models could no longer take advantage of it by stripping the no prevention via SS portion off the aura, but linked it to the model carrying its attacks. So Seamus and Reva, or any other Resser model who is carrying it can take advantage of the no SS use at the full limits of their attack range. 

I'm not taking sides in this, though I lean towards revs is within parameters, and should not be changed, even if I dislike that fact because she basically invalidates Seamus as a viable competitive choice.

The best way you are going to get her changed if you feel otherwise is to start having her win multiple tournaments. The earliest she can possibly be errata'd if such is to happen is January, and since she isn't in general release I doubt it will happen then. Next one is June or July and again as she is slated for general release in that time, again I doubt it will happen then. I'd wager If there is enough evidence for wyrd to relock at her via internal testing, AND they happen to agree she needs toning down, I'd expect the earliest it will happen is January 2018, assuming they keep to the whole 6 month rotation for errata. Don't forget many of the models that came out in the first wave of M2E that are hardly taken any more were intitially looked at as OP. I still think Jakob and the Darkness are due for a major cuddle, personally, but at the moment solid enough evidence just doesn't exist. I doubt they are going to give official errata until a threshold of evidence is reached, whatever it is, and opinion posting on forums is unlikely to do anything but flag her as a possible issue.

Again to be clear, I'm not arguing one way or another, though I do find it odd that Sandeep especially, and the other masters like Nelly aren't complained of anywhere near as much even though they are also on Reva's level, in my opinion. All the masters at least seem to be more powerful than many of their faction mates. 

Time and evidence will tell.

 

[Kadeton]

2 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Speaking historically these same defenses were made with 1st edition Hamelin when only a month after release the community noticed he was significantly above the power curve (it is worth mentioning that virtually every one of the recommended "fixes" was adopted when he was finally errated years later). The wait and see approach didn't work then and it is unlikely to work now.

Hamelin had his M1E errata because he was breaking the core mechanics of the game, not because his attacks were a little bit stronger than people liked. The "wait and see" approach has so far worked for all the other "OP" Masters (Perdita, Rasputina, Lynch, Dreamer, Ulix, Kirai etc) except for Leveticus, who again received an errata because his rules were interacting badly with the core mechanics. Since the community so far haven't found any majorly screwy interactions with Reva's abilities, an errata would need to be prompted by actual evidence that she's way above the curve (like dominating major tournaments for the next year or so) rather than just a few players' initial impressions after a handful of games. @Fetid Strumpet's timeline for potential changes sounds pretty accurate to me.

Quote

You can disagree that Reva is outside the games power curve but that is in no way any more valid than others opinions that she is. I tend to favor the group stating she is, as they are providing a bit more clarity on why they think so than the other argument that essentially boils it down to "learn how to play."

I'd urge everyone who is having trouble with Reva to try her from the other side. On the receiving end, it can easily seem like she has near-unlimited range, super high damage, easy attack vectors and no counters... but that really isn't true. It's far easier to see her limitations when you're experiencing them for yourself.

Unfortunately, I think she's also quite matchup-dependent, which can easily skew a player's perception of her power level. If you play her mostly against Masters or crews that have strong built-in counters for her main trick (by restricting her LoS, removing her counters, resisting Ca attacks, soaking her damage, attacking her directly, and so on - if you don't mentally reduce all the advice in this thread and the other thread to "learn to play" then you'll find there's quite a lot of useful tips on combating Reva) then you'll come away with the impression that she's pretty weak. If you play her mostly against her strongest matchups - a mostly-Living crew with short effective ranges, low or unbalanced defensive stats and a reliance on Armor, for example - then she'll probably seem unstoppable. She's far from the only Master with this problem.

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I'm not taking sides in this, though I lean towards revs is within parameters, and should not be changed, even if I dislike that fact because she basically invalidates Seamus as a viable competitive choice.

I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this. There are many scenarios where I'd consider Seamus a stronger choice than Reva, for his mobility, survivability and scheme potential. Where do you see him being invalidated?

Quote

Again to be clear, I'm not arguing one way or another, though I do find it odd that Sandeep especially, and the other masters like Nelly aren't complained of anywhere near as much even though they are also on Reva's level, in my opinion. All the masters at least seem to be more powerful than many of their faction mates. 

My impression is that a lot of people really hate taking damage at long range. Many complaints about "OP" Masters in the past have been along similar lines - reliable damage beyond effective retaliation distance is something that just sets people off, especially if traditional counters like taking cover aren't effective. In comparison, the power of Masters like Sandeep and Nelly is much more subtle (though just as great), and because that power comes from a complex synergy between models it's harder to point to one obvious "problem" (like a 22" Ca 6 3/4/5 attack that can ignore Armor).

There are certainly no low-powered Masters in Book 4, though I don't think any of them will eclipse their respective Factions' other strong Masters.

[solkan]

If you could eliminate the use of the corpse markers by standing on them, then that would definitely restrict the use of her abilities and would have to make her less powerful.  So that's not really a point in question.

Was Reva not overpowered during the two months or so after release when you maybe/probably could block line of sight to the 30mm corpse markers by standing a 30mm base on top of them? 

(It's too bad we can't legally determine which interpretation the play testers used during development.  )