(No) Apologies to the Black Blood Shaman

[mo11usq]

I want to love the black blood shaman (BBS).

It looked crap on paper, I played a game with one and observed that it did the square root of zero (Malifaux #17: Neverborn vs Neverborn (House of the Rising Sun) on my YouTube channel if it interests anyone).

7ss for a fragile model (it has more wounds than most minions. the end), that likes to be reasonably near the fighting, needs to be in position to maximize its decent abilities, but isn't mobile enough to keep up by itself and use them, and there are almost always much higher priority candidates for our movement tricks. The rapid growth upgrade is 1ss and leagues better than the Shaman's pathetic growth skills. Its main ability as Neverborn pseudo-blaster can only target models with the BB ABILITY, not the BB CONDITION, which its attack inflicts, dramatically cutting its utility. 

Add in the fact that it competing with the likes of doppleganger, illuminated, johan/na, a twin etc. and the BSS falls squarely into my never-take suck bin of suck.

However, I took a fun crew for my game and did not use the models I had very well, though I thought the shaman was in a good position, I leave it to you to judge. Clearly more practice is needed to learn to get the most out of the model, but the match left me with hard feelings toward it and I haven't bothered to field it since.

I now notice something that may make me reconsider. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, which probably means I haven't looked hard enough, or it isn't legal - if the former, at least this will help spread the word. If the latter, let me know so I can go back to hating this thing.

BBS can use its built in BB infusion trigger to give a model with BB ABILITY the BB CONDITION (2x BB). This has some cool implications:

Models with 2xBB do a gross of two damage back when injured. Nekima can now do 4 dmg for the price of 2 with blood for blood/limb for limb. This ignores all forms of damage reduction, except multiple ss use and immunity to pulses.

You can choose the BB order applied, so you can choose whether to take credit for the kill (with the ABILITY) or be blameless (with the CONDITION). Murder protege, vendetta, framed for murder etc. now become more interesting with our winged friend on the table!

BB pustule will dish out 3 dmg for the price of 1 dmg on models with 2x BB plus its situation buff - 2 for pustule (which ignores BB ABILITY) and one for the CONDITION. That starts to look mean!

If you feel a bit ballsy, you can add blood curse into the mix. Get the shaman next to a model with BB ABILITY and regen (Nekima, Lelu, Lilitu), or possibly one with reliable healing (emmissary, killjoy(bit tricky)), hit them twice and now the model does 2 dmg to everyone in 1" without BB at the end of every round - and can heal back up when it next activates. Mmmmmh so much Nephilim hepatitis!

If this is a thing, the BBS can have my apology - the general damage amplification and VP score/deny potential starts to make it an attractive contender for the 7ss slot in Nephilim heavy crews.

I'd also be interested to hear any other tricks that can be done with the shaman, and crew lists that work well with it.

 

[santaclaws01]

Conditions and Abilities with the same name don't stack. And the importance of pustule is buffing your models, with the damage more being a situational bonus.

[Eclipse]

Not only is what @santaclaws01 said true, but Black Blood Pustule says that you deal one damage ignoring Black Blood as a trade-off for two damage + some trigger usually.
I'd say they are more useful as Growth stations as well as to summon the occasional Terror Tot if there are corpse markers lying around. Never felt compelled to take one past the first game with them, so can't really say more about the model.

[mo11usq]

*Sigh* all that writing for nothing.

Thanks for the pointer santaclaws01, knew it seemed too useful to be true. 

I know + flips that last all turn are good, and being able to get ++ to DF or ML or + to both is better, and one should always be grateful for healing... but 7ss just seems too rich for me.

I'm going to try a more dedicated BB bomb theme crew soon, so perhaps I'll eventually learn to appreciate what they can do.

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Not only is what @santaclaws01 said true, but Black Blood Pustule says that you deal one damage ignoring Black Blood as a trade-off for two damage + some trigger usually.
I'd say they are more useful as Growth stations as well as to summon the occasional Terror Tot if there are corpse markers lying around. Never felt compelled to take one past the first game with them, so can't really say more about the model

irrelevant now, but it says "ignoring black blood ability", not condition. It can only target models with the ability, however.

bloody feast does not summon terror tots, it grows a nearby terror tot into a young nephlim. I just don't see them as anything more than a superficial layer to a growth list (although it does synergise with Nekima's True Mother), but I'm happy for someone to try and convince me otherwise.

[santaclaws01]

Now that I've watched the video, there were definitiely a few rules misplays(not including the Hooded Rider one). Firstly, Angel Eyes will take damage from Black Blood Pustule, as Black Blood only prevents damage from Black Blood. Lynch would have taken damage from Black Blood(assuming he was in range) because a  only requires range and LoS, and lastly just to make sure as you didn't go into great detail here, Lynch's  Df/Wp trigger only causes the attacker to take damage if they cheat the attack, not the damage flip. Though with how long ago this was I doubt you remember the specifics of what happened there.

Onto crew choice now. Iggy makes no sense here, and Nekima would have probably served you better than the Hooded Rider as she is another good model to buff. Ml 7 with  4/5/6 is a scary thing. Also, as you somewhat touched on in your post, giving Blood Curse to Nekima, who has regenerate and a heal on killing models, is a great source of more splash damage.

[trikk]

Played against it a few times. Its not super but it has its uses. Healing Nekima/Barbaros/Lilith with those  while still pulsing damage killed my Mech Rider :/

[mo11usq]

@santaclaws01Many good points. We were both relatively new to the game at the time (I should probably have known better, but I'm a bit slow, forgive), and with this friend we tend to agree what makes sense when not sure of a rule and look it up later. Its very hard to play a rules-perfect game, I still make mistakes, and really appreciate it when people point them out.

Ah triggers on the damage flip takes me back... the amount of damage I used to take from critical strike including damage flip rams was just nuts.

My crew was chosen to test out some models I hadn't used before. If I remember, I wanted to try a Barbaros+Tannen+BBS combo, put the rider in to help set it up, and then took Iggy purely because I had just painted him and felt like seeing how he handled  

[Nical]

Conditions and Abilities with same name can stack, if they both have a value. For Example, Armor+X conditions / Abilities can stack. But BB doesn't has a value, so BB conditions / Abilities can't stack.

And if a model has an ability and the ability doesn't have value, the model don't gain a condition that shares a name with the ability.

[necroon]

Poor BBS: I made this mistake myself so your certainly not alone.

I have gotten some good legitimate milage out of its black blood Postule, however. Being no resistance flip I find it's a good way to get some damage out there or finish off a model of mine in HeadHunter that's in a bad spot while damaging an enemy model.

I definitely agree, though, 7 stones is a very competitive price point for Neverborn and he's not by any means near the top of the list.

[mo11usq]

Okay, thinking some more about getting this sack of crap underappreciated model to do anything work for a crew trying to be competitively fun (competitively competitive is clearly a pipe dream). Please feel welcome to throw in ideas, Nekima is conspicuously missing from the one I am going to put out, and is probably a necessity.

Black Blood Bomb themed crew for clustering strats like turf war/extraction/guard the stash, maybe a defensive headhunter, with no condition giving schemes in the pool. Hope for no Von Schill, Molly, Merris, Seishin, other nephilim, Blasters, Summoners, mass armour etc. this is a terrible idea, why am I bothering?

5ss chache

Lilith - beckon malifaux, summon the blood

Primordial Magic

Doppleganger - retribution's eye

Mr Graves

Lelu - satisfying punishment

Lilitu

Black Blood Shaman (BBS)

Terror Tot

Terror Tot

 

Ideally Lilitu and Lilith single out enemy models with lure and tangle shadows for the rest to gangbang, minimising retribution to the fragile Nephilim and potentially dropping a corpse or two if you want style points for growing tots. Alternatively, Graves. Doppleganger and Lilith buddy up to throw Lelu into any incautious group of enemies. If enemy beaters can't be immobilised effectively by wicked vines then Graves and Lelu can try to double team them and any survivor can be used as a BB bomb.

Lilith, BBS and Doppleganger can BB pustule Lelu, Lelu can use satisfying punishment to bleed himself and card cycle (gonna need it, pustule is certain to be hand draining), he can even be given blood curse if you really have it in for him (he loves it). Tots and Graves can provide secondary bombs. In a perfect world this can do 18 irresistible damage per turn (for 9 damage to your models), excluding bleeding caused by physical blows.

Lelu can be kept in this cycle of misery by his vampiric bite (potential 0-8 damage healed), the twins' regen (heal 2x1) and BBS targeting either twin with the clot trigger (potential 0,3,6 damage healed on Lelu if targeting Lilitu, 0,2,4 on anyone else). Lelu's attacks and defenses can be buffed by BBS, targeting Lilitu if Lelu is out of range and saving the shaman's AP - I can't see this stopping Lelu from going down fast on the front line though. Graves and, more likely, Doppleganger could also help move BBS to get more out of him.

Tots, doppleganger and Lilith run schemes as needed.   

 

[Lucky_Dice_6]

I sometimes use the BBS with Lucius or Collodi. Both masters support minions realy well.
And you are able to transform Terror Tor into Youngs thx to the BBS 'Grow' and 'Bloody fest' ability. (what don't cost you the point of the upgrade)
After that you can support your youngs with the BBS.

@mo11usq love you channel.

[santaclaws01]

11 hours ago, mo11usq said:

Okay, thinking some more about getting this sack of crap underappreciated model to do anything work for a crew trying to be competitively fun (competitively competitive is clearly a pipe dream). Please feel welcome to throw in ideas, Nekima is conspicuously missing from the one I am going to put out, and is probably a necessity.

Black Blood Bomb themed crew for clustering strats like turf war/extraction/guard the stash, maybe a defensive headhunter, with no condition giving schemes in the pool. Hope for no Von Schill, Molly, Merris, Seishin, other nephilim, Blasters, Summoners, mass armour etc. this is a terrible idea, why am I bothering?

5ss chache

Lilith - beckon malifaux, summon the blood

Primordial Magic

Doppleganger - retribution's eye

Mr Graves

Lelu - satisfying punishment

Lilitu

Black Blood Shaman (BBS)

Terror Tot

Terror Tot

 

Ideally Lilitu and Lilith single out enemy models with lure and tangle shadows for the rest to gangbang, minimising retribution to the fragile Nephilim and potentially dropping a corpse or two if you want style points for growing tots. Alternatively, Graves. Doppleganger and Lilith buddy up to throw Lelu into any incautious group of enemies. If enemy beaters can't be immobilised effectively by wicked vines then Graves and Lelu can try to double team them and any survivor can be used as a BB bomb.

Lilith, BBS and Doppleganger can BB pustule Lelu, Lelu can use satisfying punishment to bleed himself and card cycle (gonna need it, pustule is certain to be hand draining), he can even be given blood curse if you really have it in for him (he loves it). Tots and Graves can provide secondary bombs. In a perfect world this can do 18 irresistible damage per turn (for 9 damage to your models), excluding bleeding caused by physical blows.

Lelu can be kept in this cycle of misery by his vampiric bite (potential 0-8 damage healed), the twins' regen (heal 2x1) and BBS targeting either twin with the clot trigger (potential 0,3,6 damage healed on Lelu if targeting Lilitu, 0,2,4 on anyone else). Lelu's attacks and defenses can be buffed by BBS, targeting Lilitu if Lelu is out of range and saving the shaman's AP - I can't see this stopping Lelu from going down fast on the front line though. Graves and, more likely, Doppleganger could also help move BBS to get more out of him.

Tots, doppleganger and Lilith run schemes as needed.   

 

You're focusing too heavily on black blood. I'd ditch Lelu and either graves or the tots for Nekima or a Mature neph, and drop Summon the Blood on Lilith. She doesn't get any of the useful triggers from it, so if you're using anything other than a mask on her pustule than you're missing out on either healing or a  for Ml or Df. The BBS is there to support your big beaters, the extra damage you can get is just a bonus.

[Twg]

I have also found the Shaman to be a bit of a disappointment. I think it's main issue is the SS cost and that it competes with some of the best models in the NB range (illuminated and the doppel). I just find that it never really buffs my models sufficiently that it justify its cost and dies to a stiff breeze. I find Lelu, even after his buff, to still be a poor choice unless I'm playing dreamer.

I hope to use the Shaman more with a much more BB/Nephilim orientated crew and see how that works. I just find the Nephilim to be a tad to fragile for my personal playstyle.

EDIT - Sorry, also love your channel. Glad someone else also makes those type of mistakes and then face palms afterwards!

[Joel]

BBS - one of the models I most wanted to work!  I have had some fun with him in a Lilith crew where lilith had her black blood upgrade too.  Between the two of them they killed Perdita without her being able to do anything about it, despite being Df9 and on full wounds.

Lilith pulsed out black blood 3 times, dealing 6 damage to perdita, then the BBS used pustule on her, healing her up both times while killing Perdita with 4 more damage.

However, this only works when you are running crews built around black blood and with models that already have the black blood ability. 

To make him a truly viable option across neverborn, he'd need more flexability.  shame really.

[mo11usq]

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You're focusing too heavily on black blood.

Good advice, it does seem that the BBS is intended to give a flexible number of minor support abilities (pulse damage, + flips, limited grow).

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I think it's main issue is the SS cost and that it competes with some of the best models in the NB range (illuminated and the doppel). I just find that it never really buffs my models sufficiently that it justify its cost and dies to a stiff breeze.

Bang on. The abilities mentioned above just look cute on a 7ss model - they would be very good, but not over the top, on a 5ss model. This disparity makes me think I must be missing something - perhaps synergy with True Mother is key?

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Lilith pulsed out black blood 3 times, dealing 6 damage to perdita, then the BBS used pustule on her, healing her up both times while killing Perdita with 4 more damage

I'm impressed you got that to work, but I hear tell you know what you're doing. Presumably this was mid-late game when 'Dita had burnt through her stones and Francisco and the austringers were caught out having a crafty smoke?

 

[Sybaris]

I find Nekima to be the best bet with a BBS, even more so than Lilith.  I did have success against the viks with it.

Nekima has a 50mm base, which is useful to get pulses across a bigger radius.  She already regenerate 1 wound per turn, so that helps for times you don't heal her. She doesn't have any  inbuilt, so benefits the most from them. Nekima is also a glass cannon, so she needs to go in a big bang, even if she dies doing it so it's already in her plan to damage herself in order to kill more (Blood for Blood). She also has alot more synnergy to grow the Nephilim than lilith if you take her dedicated upgrade, so this is an added interaction with the BBS's innate grow effect.

Lilith, while very strong in melee, is more careful in approach thanks to her LOS shenanigans, and her high Df makes it a bit of a waste to wound her before the opponent attempts it. Nekima has low Df, she is going to get hurt anyway, so might as well burn it for effect.

It's also feels thematic to me, when you think about it. Nekima seems to be the one behind the whole hybrid line (Tuco, Bloodwretches and Scion of the Black Blood, not sure on Angel Eyes), and the Black Blood Shamen's blood magic seems to be a big part of this feat.

[Joel]

On 25/11/2016 at 3:27 PM, mo11usq said:

Good advice, it does seem that the BBS is intended to give a flexible number of minor support abilities (pulse damage, + flips, limited grow).

Bang on. The abilities mentioned above just look cute on a 7ss model - they would be very good, but not over the top, on a 5ss model. This disparity makes me think I must be missing something - perhaps synergy with True Mother is key?

I'm impressed you got that to work, but I hear tell you know what you're doing. Presumably this was mid-late game when 'Dita had burnt through her stones and Francisco and the austringers were caught out having a crafty smoke?

 

Turn 3 - stones burnt trying to keep Francisco alive from a pair of illuminated - austringers and Nino dead from mature nephilim and silurids

[enderwiggin]

I tried to love BBS, I really did. Until I was told pustule worked on the ability, not condition. For me, when I was running Lynch/Collodi it turned into a lackluster option since it couldn't heal and although the condition is nice on Masters/Illuminated, without the healing it's 7 stones for essentially Black Blood "upgrade" on a few models. It's not a great schemer/brawler/support (especially without a true BB source or growth options), and with Lynch can't even really grow my Tots since it can't keep up with their movement once the ace is in hand...

Collodi is possibly going to get another crack at making one work, because I'm being tempted to run Lilitu and Lilu in a Props list for him, which means a BBS might see a return simply to keep those two healthy and/or provide focus/def at least for Collodi to steal as he rampages (plus he gets BB to keep the little swings at bay).

[Azkral]

Wyrd heard Us! What do you think about the BBS now he give friendly models Black Blood ability?

[mo11usq]

I'm running out of face to smile in

I think it is going to be strong, the 7ss slot has got serious competition, which will hopefully be good for list variety.

Collodi in particular is happy with this. Hopefully, it won't be over the top.

[Fetid Strumpet]

From my personal experience with this, it is over the top, and a massive NPE.

[mo11usq]

I respect your experience strumpet, and have some slight reservations myself.

However, there are many models in this game that when played well and or are not expected are experienced as overpowering. 

When models have particularly strong synergies in a situation, a big part of the game becomes disrupting it. This is why scalpel models are so important, and every faction can access them.

Learning a new strategy to deal with a new strategy, seems a good thing for keeping the game dynamic. And my own feeling is there are worse game killers out there for inexperienced players *cough* Perdita *cough*

[Seryjniak]

How would this work with Colodi and his puppets ? You would let puppets die then transfer the condition to another puppet or what ?

[Fetid Strumpet]

It's an ability now, not a condition, so things that work on conditions will not work on this. 

[Mason]

12 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

It's an ability now, not a condition, so things that work on conditions will not work on this. 

It's a Condition that grants the Black Blood Ability.

Blood Infusion: After damaging, the target gains the following Condition for the rest of the game: "Blood Infusion: This model has the Black Blood Ability."