Lynch list into Reva - LF Feedback

[InvokeChaos]

Here's a list I'm currently looking at for him versus... Well anyone really, but could be strong against Reva.

Brothers and Effigy are your scheme runners with some extra activations that are hard to shift. You can get the brothers to be pretty tanky, and that's a good thing against Reva. Shadow Effigy also helps Jakob survive and provides some more.

Wastrel and LRM are for healing and utility and activation control.

Your beaters are Betty, Huggy, Emissary and Lynch(y).

Use emissary to fast and push Betty into position as well as hopefully draw a stronger card. Use Lynch to cycle that hand for that strong control. And prepare to send Bettari into the fray. I don't give her RT here because I feel she's kill-y enough with flaying song and I like smoke grenades and a taste for flesh for survivability. 

Huggy is a trap. I want Reva (or anyone) to go ahead and focus him down, lose cards or die and then just pop him right back out. Against Reva in particular, you have plenty of targets to nuke and bring him back... annnnnnnnnnd I just realized if he buries that isn't going to work... alright so as above but with swapping death to betty and false to emissary. I'll adjust later.

So nevermind... Huggy is easy to rez against reva lists... natch.

The goal is to prep a hand for diving Bettari, who can hide anywhere really and still do that thanks to her abilities. The other three pull up the slack if she gets nuked, which if you do good target selection, shouldn't be a problem.

[Cedar]

Nice list, but maybe you should try Yin for her [-] on CA and WP, which provide solid debuff for Reva and buff for Lynch.

[InvokeChaos]

3 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Nice list, but maybe you should try Yin for her [-] on CA and WP, which provide solid debuff for Reva and buff for Lynch.

i had thought of that, but she's really slow, the Gnawing Fear is on a 0 action and Lynch is Ca8 on Play for Blood and Ca7 for final debt, so I decided against it for now. But she's in the "sideboard" for testing.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Just as a question, how are the TT brothers tanks against Reva? Don't all their buffs affect Df? If they tank up won't she just attack their wp?

[InvokeChaos]

Go defensive to force the WP and with their dance of many + emissary you can make them effective armor 2. It just soaks up some AP. Plus they can self-heal if she doesn't get them down.

Alternative is depleted but they are way slower and df 4 hurts. Even with 8wds. 

[EnternalVoid]

Well one thing to remember about depleted is they can be faster as a group or if you have an illuminated.  AS their (0) pushes towards a model with Brilliance, and both Depleted and Illuminated have it baked in, you can get a potential 5" move out of Depleted.  Even just two depleted working together means first turn one gets an 8" movement and the other gets more like a 13" if they work together.  Next turn the one that was closer can always move first and use its (0) to catch up a bit.  That is why I think Depleted often work better in a group or in a list that as Illuminated to give their their jump start *to try and make up for slow speed*

[InvokeChaos]

Yeah, I use that trick all the time with an illuminated. Honestly I don't think I've ever run just two depleted by themselves. That seems legit now that I see it on paper.

But i still feel 10T bros are more stalwart, and can be independently speedy. But something to definitely keep in mind, none the less. Especially as it does free up some more cache.

[Wake of Godzilla]

 I think Lynch might struggle with Reva a little - she can sit at the back and exploit his low wk so he might struggle to get into the game and then target him when he comes a little closer. 

As Fetid pointed out she can also go after 10T with WP attacks and negate and reduction to damage. At the same time she can pick out some of the core bits of the crew before they can get too close to her. 

I am not saying she's unbeatable but I think that it might be tough for Lynch.

Just one giant lizard trying to help out another. 

[InvokeChaos]

17 minutes ago, Wake of Godzilla said:

 I think Lynch might struggle with Reva a little - she can sit at the back and exploit his low wk so he might struggle to get into the game and then target him when he comes a little closer. 

As Fetid pointed out she can also go after 10T with WP attacks and negate and reduction to damage. At the same time she can pick out some of the core bits of the crew before they can get too close to her. 

I am not saying she's unbeatable but I think that it might be tough for Lynch.

Just one giant lizard trying to help out another. 

Radiocative giant lizard at that! Off topic, have you seen the previews for Shin Gojira? Its got a limited release through funimation mid october. 

On topic:

Thansk for the feedback all!

 @Wake of Godzilla I thought about that too. But here's where I think it's ok:

 Card cycling and advantage is a huge boost against reva IMO. She's going to be pulling cards out of your hand. And unless she takes the two point upgrade to do ignore reduction, which still has a trigger, vincent has to get close enough to use his 0. For this list, even with MLH that's a non-issue. 

Lynch can sit back and hold a position and melt things at range, her corpse reach is only 3". You kill it 8" away, you're fine. The goal is to not offer up targets too readily. I'm ok if she's using AP to go after say huggy or what have you because he's going to pop up constantly. Shieldbearers become Huggy delivery devices against Lynch. 

Damage reduction for me (10T bros in particular) doesn't come on triggers just on being defensive or through armor. And our WP is fairly high on avg. i don't think that's too much of a concern.

Also the core of this list is tough. Getting to bettari will be hard as I can hide her completely and still threaten. Emissary is totally ok, high wounds and pretty tough overall. She'd have to really commit resources to taking him out, and if she is, then that means huggy is still up.

The weak point is my scheme runners I feel, but I wouldn't run this where I had to really spread out. I think reva likes the grouping, but she likes spreading out more. It allows her to do exactly what she wants: throw minions willy nilly and saturate the board with attack vectors.

The highlight of this list, and the gamble (thematic!) is that if I cycle my hand into turn 2 or even late turn 1 to setup the dive, it's really hard to stop me from taking out anything I want. Reva included. Like I said, it's putting my fate in the fate deck, but hey, Lynch can handle that!

Now this is all theoryfaux, I finally get home today and get some tabletime tomorrow. I will report back as I have four lists I am going to be using thsi week and this is one. We will see if my thoughts and counterpoints had any merit or if I should have just listened to you guys, haha!!

[Wake of Godzilla]

I've seen the 1st trailer, not much beyond that - will hit the webs shortly ;-).

Let us know how it went on the table! 

[InvokeChaos]

Well, not a great first outing. Played against the Viks and made an activation order mistake and a single placement mistake. Lost Huggy and Bettari end of round 1 and top of round 2 respectively. All was not lost as I dropped enough damage on vik of blood to kill her with lynch and bring back huggy.

Unfortunately, despite cycling 24 cards over two turns via stones, mulligan and hand draws... didn't see a single card over 9 except for one 11. Had to use it to put the damage on the Vik, then when it came time to final debt, he flipped 13 vs my 4 with nothing high enough to match... so Vik survived, healed to full and I was down to one beater and a Vik crew in my face. If I could have won initiative or got that final debt flip, I'd have been fine... but alas. Twas not to be.

Will run it again next week (maybe even this weekend) and get some more feedback. I don't think the list performed poorly, just made a mistake and got some bad flips.

[Pyrflamme]

I'd consider shifting Peaceful Waters to Huggy and taking 52 Pickup on Lynch. Being able to throw aces at a Brilliant target for 2-8 damage without spending AP is just fantastic.

[Eclipse]

I second taking Wanna See A Trick, free damage for no AP and with no duel is just so... Enjoyable

[Tokapondora]

Don't pick the highly situational card that keeps you from reliably sifting for a consistently high hand. Also don't throw an upgrade that requires the Monks to stay near and in LoS of something on a creatures that spends half his time deep in enemy ranks and half his time being burried. I know this forum has a very liberal attitude to "You don't have to play perfect ideal strats" but there comes a point where you're just tossing people bad ideas. 

[InvokeChaos]

Yeah I have to agree with Toka, here. Wanna See a Trick is great and all, but I really feel you need a list that digs to really make it effective. Like running a samurai or something. And even then it's rare. I went through my whole deck with that crew and drew one ace, simply because I rolled all my other ones during duels out of activation, which you can't pick up.

And Peaceful Waters is great, it's an autotake for me right now, but absolutely has to stay on a backliner support, or in this list's case, your master. Lynch should never be in melee combat, and the LRM is purely to top off vs ranged threats and maybe a late game minion scheme runner, so both are going to be midfield at best. Huggy likes to dive in and wreck things then pop up later.

[Pyrflamme]

6 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

Don't pick the highly situational card that keeps you from reliably sifting for a consistently high hand. Also don't throw an upgrade that requires the Monks to stay near and in LoS of something on a creatures that spends half his time deep in enemy ranks and half his time being burried. I know this forum has a very liberal attitude to "You don't have to play perfect ideal strats" but there comes a point where you're just tossing people bad ideas. 

 

3 hours ago, InvokeChaos said:

Yeah I have to agree with Toka, here. Wanna See a Trick is great and all, but I really feel you need a list that digs to really make it effective. Like running a samurai or something. And even then it's rare. I went through my whole deck with that crew and drew one ace, simply because I rolled all my other ones during duels out of activation, which you can't pick up.

And Peaceful Waters is great, it's an autotake for me right now, but absolutely has to stay on a backliner support, or in this list's case, your master. Lynch should never be in melee combat, and the LRM is purely to top off vs ranged threats and maybe a late game minion scheme runner, so both are going to be midfield at best. Huggy likes to dive in and wreck things then pop up later.

 

Oh boy. I have two responses to this collection of posts, the first will be my exposition on why I think what I said in the earlier post is valid, while the second, below the asterisks, will be considerably more heated and a respond to a particular line. Skip everything below the asterisks if you're allergic to that kind of thing.

I believe that 52 Pickup is an excellent option for Lynch in that for a minor investment of one Soulstone, you gain a good amount of flexibility in what you do with the Aces you've accumulated over the course of a turn. You are in no way prevented from taking the Mulligan action with Wanna See a Trick hanging around, and with both available, you can even choose to split up the Aces you've picked up over the turn. Had a good turn and four Aces in the grip? Maybe there's something you can kill with 2-8 damage. Throw the rest back with Mulligan to try and sculpt your hand/deck for next turn. Nothing around that you particularly want to shotgun after Final Debting? Throw three Aces back. I also think it's an acceptable take with the listed crew as the volume of models will provide plenty of flips to dig the deck. Samurai are great with Lynch for digging, yes, but between ability usage and defensive flips, you will go through a sizable portion of the deck each turn.

Also, I think putting the upgrade on Hungering Darkness is valid for the following reasons:

1) Resilience. Hungering Darkness will be hit by any Df-targeting attack your opponent cares to throw at it, but it has Soulstone use, Incorp, and recurs. It will likely be back during the game even if it spends a little time buried.

2) Mobility. Lynch has Spd 4 and Ht 2. You will be taking advantage of walls to hide behind, which while a good tactical idea, further raises the possibility he will be out of LOS from a Monk. Hungering Darkness is Ht 3, so while stuff can see him, that works out in the case of the Monk keeping the healing ability active. Darkness is also Wk 6 and Incorp, so if the situation ever comes up that one or the other needs to get into range of the other to turn on the heal (this is accounting for stuff like enemy pushes, places, etc), he can do so much more easily.

3) Ranges. I don't think Huggy is necessarily going to cause issues with range. The aura is huge (12"), and Huggy has 3" of melee range to work with, plus his base size. In addition, I would point out that having Lynch in the backfield also constrains the Monk's reach further downrange. I think having the Monk be able to sit 12" behind Huggy, still able to project 6" back, and also has the option of walking forward to heal or do other things but still in heal range, will work out as well as, if not better, than sitting within 12" of Lynch and projecting 6" from there. This also relates to point 2) and Lynch LOS issues where the monk may have more flexibility to move around the mid-to-downrange area and still retain its heal.

I have not playtested Waters yet with Lynch, but I think these three points are a compelling argument to shift Waters to Hungering Darkness and free up an upgrade spot for Lynch. For the Divergent Paths event, my local group is running a campaign, and I am currently playing Misaki, so that's where my current playtime is going. Once it is over and I have "free" playtime, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and try this setup.

*************************************

Ok, I just want to respond to this post:

6 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

I know this forum has a very liberal attitude to "You don't have to play perfect ideal strats" but there comes a point where you're just tossing people bad ideas. 

This is not a good argument to make when saying someone's argument is invalid. It basically is an attempt at unilaterally shutting down discussion. Making the first part of your post is fine, you're making an argument I can respond to. This line is terrible and not only shuts down discussion, but makes assumptions about the other person which may be unfair, if not invalid.

I'm going to defend myself here now. On June 21st, I went to a Malifaux tournament in St. Louis at Game Nite. The Henchman there was anteing up a LE Kirai card for first place. I think Kirai is fucking awesome, she was my first pure Rezzer Master (I think I may have had Yan Lo and possibly Tara painted up before her) and I went for the translucent box when it was available. I knew I wanted to get her, and I was going to gun for first place. The guy with the big arrow above his head? That's me, sporting the first place certificate with my Kirai card in the bottom right, clutched in my left hand.

To get there, I won all three of my games, getting what I believe was the highest VP total of the tournament (it's been a while). My first game, I played 10T Lynch into Lilith, taking Wanna See a Trick. My opponent was very competent in his play, utilizing a Nekima catapult into an unactivated model t1, rooting Lynch with Lilith turns 2 and 3 to keep him under some semblance of control and out of range to tag his models (part of why I'm looking forward to having more reason to take a Monk, myself), and a Doppleganger/McTavish combo to harass from range. I was on the backfoot early on, but managed to fight my way back, and Wanna See a Trick came into play when I finally managed to beat a root and walk Lynch into range of a Hungering Darkness-Brillanced Lilith and throw four aces at her head to kill her past anything but a RJ prevention flip. The first few turns I used Mulligan, yes, but when the time came, I absolutely took advantage of 52 Pickup to kill a powerful target with no recourse as he'd already been Brillianced.

My next two games featured Spirit Molly (went with her over Kirai as it was Guard the Stash, and I figured Molly would play better in putting multiple damage instances out with him putting models near to contest), in which I managed to kill Levi's Mech Rider on turn one with a Shikome and a RJ damage flip (and I maintain I would have killed it turn 2 anyways). My third game I played Outcast Tara in which I had to sac my Nothing Beast turn one, but managed to kill an El Mayored Perdita before she even got to her second activation.

In all three games, I absolutely played as competitively as I could, because I was gunning for that LE Kirai. I tried to be a polite and courteous opponent in the process, and I absolutely believe that my opponents were also good and skilled players bringing their best to the table, they did not make it easy for me. They're all in that picture up there, I haven't identified them because I don't have their permission, but know you're also dismissing them as players - particularly the Lilith one I beat with Lynch. You're saying they lost to someone playing imperfectly who tosses people bad ideas, after all.

I do a lot of posting in which I'm basically throwing speculation out to get discussion going, and sometimes they turn out to be real stinkers, yes, but I'm a good player and some of what I post is backed up by experience. If you disagree with a person's points, you can just respond directly with "Well, I believe my way is better because of reasons A, B, C", and then either just leave it out there or directly invite them to respond. Resorting to "you're casual and have bad ideas" is not acceptable, whether it's here, on the Privateer Press forums, or Facebook, or wherever.

 

[Tokapondora]

1 hour ago, Pyrflamme said:

...snip...

And I, too, am a very good player. I have not lost a single game with Lynch in the couple dozen games I played with him. That is irrelevant though. I did not dismiss it by lolusuck or yepImamazing; I have explained the reasons why I feel that was really not a good idea. That addage might've perhaps come across a bit unneseccarily hostile but I've seen so many unreliable and inconsistent strategies and ideas be defended by "It doesn't have to be a perfect play" and "I've had it work amazingly these couple times" where people mistake their stroke of luck for something being consistently viable. This was not an attack on you or your achievements; merely this one idea and its flaws.

[Pyrflamme]

I don't want to turn it into an accomplishment-waving fest either, but that last line comes off as hostile, as you say, and I've seen it or a similar sentiment expressed too many times in lieu of trying to draw out why exactly someone has an opinion, and way too often has it killed discussion. I mainly became irate at not only the sentiment coming up but in reply to my post, which made it personal for me and drew out the long post. Otherwise, I probably would have just posted the extended reply, striving to justify my opinion in more detail, to your first few sentences as seen in the first part of my post.

If you want to call the matter settled with this exchange, we can metaphorically shake on it. Otherwise we should probably take it to PMs.

Sorry for the derail, Invoke. As I said, I have a visceral dislike for what I saw as the sentiment in that last line, and at the time I felt compelled to address it publicly.

 

[InvokeChaos]

It happens, I hope you guys are cool, or at least willing to let it take a back burner.

To the topic points you made:

I don't think that the premises you bring up are invalid. And against a hyper aggressive crew, I do believe 52 card pick up is a great one to have. But I do have a couple of thoughts as to why I don't take it in this list:

1) Cache... I only have 4ss in my cache right now, and I don't want to cut anything else out of the list right now. Putting in 52 card pick up and throwing peaceful waters to huggy means I'm not at 3ss. That's just too darned low for me.

2) Luck. Regardless of how good 52 card pickup can be... it's based on pure luck. Turn 1, I had next to no activations that required flips. Nothing got in my face until Vik was saying hi. 52 card pick up is either on or off. And it's COMPLETELY dependent on the flips off your deck and when. You can't pick up except during the model's activation, so if you aren't doing a ton of flips for whatever reason, then it can be a wasted upgrade.

As to Peaceful Waters targets:

 I agree with your points. My only argument is that's not how I play Huggy. Huggy is a farfield, in your face beater for me. I send him out turn 1 to kill something and die. Then bring him back turn 2. I don't want to have to juggle where he is and is he going to live just to keep my healing up. 

I play Lynch mid-back. Not too aggressive, but far enough forward to make the opponent be concerned. That's plenty far forward for my monk, who is in the same position. For your method of play, that may not be ideal, but for me it works great. I often have Peaceful Waters on either my master (unless it's like Misaki, lol) or Chiaki. 

Just some insight into why I take what I do and why I'm not going to make the adjustments. Not that I don't think you're comments are valid, they just don't fit my current list and playstyle.

Hope that's a bit more helpful than my shorter "no thank you" post. 

I appreciate all the feedback still! It provokes thought and if I have to defend my ideas, it makes me consider if I've made a bad choice! So far I think my choices for the list are ok, but seeing as my first outing I was rekt, I might be making some adjustments as indicated by you all!  

[Lucidicide]

Do what I do... instant errata models until you're winning

[InvokeChaos]

2 hours ago, Aaron said:

Do what I do... instant errata models until you're winning

See now...  I get called out for cheating when I do it! I'm just staying in character with Lynch. 

Maybe I just need to get him addicted to Brilliance... yesssss. Most excellent.