How to beat Reva with Mei Feng?

[Paddywhack]

12 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

While Reva's damage may only be on a single model she doesn't struggle to kill what she wants. It isn't unreasonable to expect her to kill 2-3 minions or a Henchman in a turn. Again she can do this from a long ways away and has the choice to target the weaker of a models defense or willpower.

2-3 minions a turn? Those are some good cards you are getting then.  She is a monster, but no different than many other monsters out there right now.  I think after you play against her a bit more you will be more used to her and can counter her. I still find Raspy to be NPE, but I'm not saying she needs to be cuddled. I just don't play against her enough to know best how to manage her schtick. 

I do understand the reaction though as Reva is very straightforward and easy to play. Not something most of our Resurr masters are really. I do still find it odd playing a Resser that doesn't summon and has a lot of Living models. As a Ressur I know how I'd handle her, but not so much as a TT. Not as familiar with all the tricks in that faction (though I think Shenlong would have some good abilities for her). 

Have you tried taking Smoke and Shadows and a couple of Last Blossom models? Blocking LOS to her corpse markers seems like an effective way to hamper her and protect your models so you can get closer. Just a thought - not sure how it would work out in play. 

[trikk]

I think the biggest issue I have with Reva is:

She can block reduction and prevention which means killing masters has never been easier.

 

Also a lot of people mention standing on markers with 40 and 50mm bases but unless you have Ht3 or more that doesn`t block LoS with the current rules.

[#Maxi]

16 minutes ago, trikk said:

I think the biggest issue I have with Reva is:

She can block reduction and prevention which means killing masters has never been easier.

Actually it isn't true: Vincent can make her do this with his 0 action (I think you're not gonna talking about payng 4 ss for litany of fallen + decaying aura), so basically that means every resser can do this by hiring Vincent. And again, honestly do you believe that a range 10" Ca6 opposite Wp duel 0 action without the needed suit built-in is a so crazy unbalanced feature?

Just for example, Wong (with the Oooo glowy upg) can actually play with 3 (3!) magic models, namely 2 swine cursed + whoever you want, having a terrific damage output which ignores everything, 3 AP, the stampede-like trigger (also without taking damage), regeneration and a really low ss cost thinking about what they can do... Is really Vincent the balancing problem?

Reva is undoubtely powerful, but I can't see where the difference should be between her and Sonnia, Rasputina and even more Wong.

Finally, as this thread is about TT, I give my TT opponent opinion: Bettari is dramatically strong, and yes, hiring it means quite surely a dead Vincent (no more push Df trigger and always cheattable 6 dmg hits) or, if you prefer, a serious worry for Reva herself

[Paddywhack]

3 minutes ago, #Maxi said:

Finally, as this thread is about TT, I give my TT opponent opinion: Bettari is dramatically strong, and yes, hiring it means quite surely a dead Vincent (no more push Df trigger and always cheattable 6 dmg hits) or, if you prefer, a serious worry for Reva herself

Oh yes! She is awful and will ruin Reva's day. Have her take out Vincent fast, and she is fast with her free place when a model is summoned nearby and the fact she can charge anything regardless of LOS or terrain. Her aura that stops Df/Wp triggers will kill Vincent fast. She is a great Henchman. 

[trikk]

9 minutes ago, #Maxi said:

Actually it isn't true: Vincent can make her do this with his 0 action (I think you're not gonna talking about payng 4 ss for litany of fallen + decaying aura).

This.

Once you get LoS to most masters/henchmen you can pretty much kill them in one activation with weak damage. Sonnia, Rasputina and Wong don`t do that kind of damage and all 3 of them are less mobile and are more squishy. Try killing a Nekima with any of those in one activation. Or Lilith, or a lot of other masters/henchmen.

TBH Reva is a lot better at nuking single models than Perdita while having a lot more healing and a greater threat range and a cache of 4?

 

[#Maxi]

8 minutes ago, trikk said:

This.

Once you get LoS to most masters/henchmen you can pretty much kill them in one activation with weak damage. Sonnia, Rasputina and Wong don`t do that kind of damage and all 3 of them are less mobile and are more squishy. Try killing a Nekima with any of those in one activation. Or Lilith, or a lot of other masters/henchmen.

 

My friend, I think you're making easier than it is.

I have to: activate Vincent and move it in a 10" range from Nekima (which sounds like a big trouble for him, as Nekima can charge him just a second after, putting in 2 hits cause the 3" push trigger leaves him still in the 3" Nekima's range if they start btb), or anyway means to expose a fragile model like him; then Vince has to stone for ram, win the Ca 6 vs Wp duel against Nekima. Then it's your turn cause Reva cannot chain activate, so Nekima can simply fly off 3" from a corpse to be safe from Reva's shots. And Reva can summon a candle only at the beginning of her activation, so she can't for example double walk and then summon a candle near Nekima (ignoring that anyway this means only one action left to do with her). And again, Reva could move + 13" threat charge, but I need Los to charge and I can't think about leaving her in the middle of your models easily (than, with only 2 attacks I can't kill Nekima).

In an ideal simulation yes, Reva can kill Nekima in one activation, but as we say "there is also the opponent playing"

PS: yes, Sonnia with papa can do that damage and many blasts also, and the 3 magic models build for Wong is even more frightening IMHO.

[trikk]

No. I mean Litany + Decaying Aura.

Papa + Box is 13SS. If you target SS users you can stone for  to damage or stay in hard cover and suddenly Sonnia, Wong and Rasputina become a lot less efficient.

Wong has 10" range? 3 magical models need to get to you which is a lot easier to block than Reva, since you need Ht3 models wtih 40 or 50mm bases to block LoS to markers

Swine-cursed have a min damage of 2 that can be prevented. They just ignore a lot of reductions which, don`t get me wrong is nice, but its not the same

[Omenbringer]

54 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

2-3 minions a turn? Those are some good cards you are getting then.  She is a monster, but no different than many other monsters out there right now.  I think after you play against her a bit more you will be more used to her and can counter her. I still find Raspy to be NPE, but I'm not saying she needs to be cuddled. I just don't play against her enough to know best how to manage her schtick. 

I do understand the reaction though as Reva is very straightforward and easy to play. Not something most of our Resurr masters are really. I do still find it odd playing a Resser that doesn't summon and has a lot of Living models. As a Ressur I know how I'd handle her, but not so much as a TT. Not as familiar with all the tricks in that faction (though I think Shenlong would have some good abilities for her). 

She doesn't need particularly good cards to chew through 2-3 minions a turn, especially those that have already been damaged say from summoning.

Reva can choose the lower of Defense or Willpower with her attacks. She has an AV of 6 with an in built suit, likely at least a point higher than the targets resist. Ties go to the Attacker. Her minimum damage is 3 with a top end of 6 (if she uses her native auto trigger and discards a Corpse Marker). Her Litany of the Fallen upgrade can make this non-reducible and is another automatic trigger, great for those minion models that trade wounds for Armor. She has base 3 attacks with a very long range (up to 21"). Add in the 0 Attack action and it isn't inconceivable that she can mow down 2-3 minions a turn. Gremlin minions in particular are going to be winnowed before her Ethereal Reaping and are a faction that I just wouldn't play against her at all. I can't think of any single model in the game that has that kind of presence or effect.

Malifaux was not intended to be a game where you have to counter your opponents list to have a chance of winning. Reva (much like 1st edition Hamlin and both editions Leveticus) makes you do that, you can not ignore her and work on achieving your Strats and Schemes.

Also she does summon and quite well. She has the advantage of being able to do it for the price of a single Control Card. While she may only be able to summon the Corpse Candles, these do a whole lot for her and are essentially free. They also require you opponent to deal with them since they are mobile nodes for her.

I would be curious to hear how you would handle her as a resser player honestly? She is fairly well equipped against her own faction.

[#Maxi]

27 minutes ago, trikk said:

No. I mean Litany + Decaying Aura.

Papa + Box is 13SS. If you target SS users you can stone for  to damage or stay in hard cover and suddenly Sonnia, Wong and Rasputina become a lot less efficient.

Wong has 10" range? 3 magica models need to get to you which is a lot easier to block than Reva, since you need Ht3 models wtih 40 or 50mm bases to block LoS to markers

Litany + Decaying is a 4ss upg set that lets you only one slot remaining for upg (means only one between the two limited, blood mark, maniacal laugh and so on, and note that quite every of these increase the number/mobility of corpses or gives Reva beter shot spots: basically this way you're reducing a lot her shot chances). It seems again easier than it is: I have to manage to reach with all of my attacks the master/henchman I want to target without even moving, so I keep all the 3 ap for attack actions; than I have to hit with all the attacks and, even if I'm lucky enough or I have a great hand of cards, having no to dmg flip I'm reasonably going to put 3+3+3 dmg (meaning no master killed).. I can even try with 0 life drain (if I didn't use my 0 to place 5" in contact with a corpse/candle, because I cannot walk if I want to 3 attack), but I need a not-built tome and to largely win the opposite duel (I'm starting to be very very lucky if I do so, like 3/4 very high cards in hands and maybe just one for my opponent).

We can keep talking about this for weeks, but it seems to me that theory is a matter and real game situations are another

PS: with Oooo glowy swine cursed min dmg is 3

[trikk]

Yes, Litany, Guises and Decaying Aura. Thats 5SS but its worth it. You`re assuming 3x weak but it turns out sometimes you flip moderate on a negative flip or can Life Drain and suddenly you kill a lot of masters. Considering you choose Wp or Df you will most likely hit 6 Ca vs 5 or 6 (Masters with 7/7 or more aren`t really popular unless you have Guild with Frank but then you can kill Frank).

 

I`m not talking theory. I`m witnessing those games.

With Anna and Emissary you really don`t need Maniacal Laughter that much, especially if schemes are connected with the center of the board - search the ruins, show of force etc. If you have 2 Belles you can easily Lure an activated model near a Candle/Marker.

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, Omenbringer said:

I would be curious to hear how you would handle her as a resser player honestly? She is fairly well equipped against her own faction.

Oh gosd, Nicodem would love all those corpse markers. He can bring in stuff at full health for 2 per summon, use Maniacal Laugh to turn them into only his markers,  drawing cards them when he uses them, and 0 action to discard them for heals or just to increase his CA. I've never actually used that ability as corpses are usually so much more important for summoning. Against Reva I could give him +3 CA a lot of the game and hamper her hard. 

Any leader can also take Maniacal Laugh and ruin her day. 

Sadly I don't know Mei Fang at all. Perhaps she just isn't a great match up against Reva? That is not that uncommon where one master just doesn't do well against certain other masters. Not saying Reva isn't strong - she is very strong. With Vincent and Decaying Aura she can be a monster. Light at the end may have needed a 'Once per Turn' thing or making her dmg track 3/3/5 might have helped a little. 

I still find her very card intensive though and run out hand very quickly. This can leave her very exposed later turn. 

[Paddywhack]

2 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

She doesn't need particularly good cards to chew through 2-3 minions a turn, especially those that have already been damaged say from summoning.

Reva can choose the lower of Defense or Willpower with her attacks. She has an AV of 6 with an in built suit, likely at least a point higher than the targets resist. Ties go to the Attacker. Her minimum damage is 3 with a top end of 6 (if she uses her native auto trigger and discards a Corpse Marker). Her Litany of the Fallen upgrade can make this non-reducible and is another automatic trigger, great for those minion models that trade wounds for Armor. She has base 3 attacks with a very long range (up to 21"). Add in the 0 Attack action and it isn't inconceivable that she can mow down 2-3 minions a turn. Gremlin minions in particular are going to be winnowed before her Ethereal Reaping and are a faction that I just wouldn't play against her at all. I can't think of any single model in the game that has that kind of presence or effect.

Also she does summon and quite well. She has the advantage of being able to do it for the price of a single Control Card. While she may only be able to summon the Corpse Candles, these do a whole lot for her and are essentially free. They also require you opponent to deal with them since they are mobile nodes for her.

The 0 attack doesn't have a needed suit, so you are either getting lucky in the draw or stoning - a limited resource (especially as she may need them for the Screaming Death trigger or Vincent for At Peace). The Candles are her only summons and cost a card - so now you are playing on 5 cards vs 6. While it is very nice and important for her, it does hurt you hand every turn. Once you cheat a couple of things or save a card to push Vincent out of combat (meaning you really only have 4 cards for the turn), you are going to be in a very tough situation. 

I still have to actually do any real damage on her 0 action as my hand is often low or missing the suit, I need the stone for something else, or my opponent has a high enough card to mitigate the dmg. And if you are using her teleport ability you can't even use it that turn.

She is very, very strong. But I think she is still new as well and people will learn to play against her in the next couple of months. We will see though - maybe she is just too good. Maybe her 0 Attack should have been a Tactical ability (so she couldn't use it through corpses). That would limit her damage to just her main attack. 

[Omenbringer]

8 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

The 0 attack doesn't have a needed suit, so you are either getting lucky in the draw or stoning - a limited resource (especially as she may need them for the Screaming Death trigger or Vincent for At Peace). The Candles are her only summons and cost a card - so now you are playing on 5 cards vs 6. While it is very nice and important for her, it does hurt you hand every turn. Once you cheat a couple of things or save a card to push Vincent out of combat (meaning you really only have 4 cards for the turn), you are going to be in a very tough situation. 

I still have to actually do any real damage on her 0 action as my hand is often low or missing the suit, I need the stone for something else, or my opponent has a high enough card to mitigate the dmg. And if you are using her teleport ability you can't even use it that turn.

She is very, very strong. But I think she is still new as well and people will learn to play against her in the next couple of months. We will see though - maybe she is just too good. Maybe her 0 Attack should have been a Tactical ability (so she couldn't use it through corpses). That would limit her damage to just her main attack. 

While SS may be a limited resource, Reva has a lot of incentive to use her soul stones, Shield Bearers are even better when they get Fast. Also she has a cache of 4 so it isn't like she is exactly hurting in that department. Her Ca with that 0 action is likely a point or two above the resist of most minions as well so success shouldn't be that difficult. In regards to the smaller hand size well you often have a low card that isn't doing much else for the crew anyway. Playing with a smaller hand size isn't really that devastating unless you drew the "god hand."

Keep in mind this is not hyperbole, I have seen the ease with which she operates first hand several times. She is an issue and one that simply learning her shtick is unlikely to mitigate, any more than knowing how 1st edition Hamelin or pre-cuddle 2nd edition Levi's shtick did. The probably is precisely that you have "to play against her" to have a chance of accomplishing your objectives, this is counter to one of the main design goals of Malifaux.

After the final league game Slapdrone (at least I think it was him) actually suggested one of the best fixes for her, using a corpse marker as an attack node for Ethereal Reaping should force her to discard it. Perhaps add a non-suited trigger that allows her to keep it.

[TheJoyInGaming]

My experiences with Life Drain have been very different. I've failed to cast once. The lowest damage i have had with it is 3, and only once. All the other times i've cast it has been the max damage. I don't mind her stoning for the suit because it can give my 3 Shieldbearers fast so that means i'm trading one stone for 3 additional AP on some good models. On top of that if i'm super aggressive with my SBers than i just throw another purpose on them and gain the stones back. 

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

My experiences with Life Drain have been very different. I've failed to cast once. The lowest damage i have had with it is 3, and only once. All the other times i've cast it has been the max damage. I don't mind her stoning for the suit because it can give my 3 Shieldbearers fast so that means i'm trading one stone for 3 additional AP on some good models. On top of that if i'm super aggressive with my SBers than i just throw another purpose on them and gain the stones back. 

I would still say if you are beating your opponent by 5 every time that is pretty darn lucky. Those are some high cards to get that consistently. I wish I could win all my duels so easily. 

Yes Vigor is great, but that does require Reva to be with 6" of all three of them and so either Reva is far back where she can't be targeted or up in the fray with her crew. I usually use my henchman to hand out fast to SBs. I'm lucky if I can get it off on all of them once or twice before schemes and other things require them to move forward. 

[Paddywhack]

18 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

After the final league game Slapdrone (at least I think it was him) actually suggested one of the best fixes for her, using a corpse marker as an attack node for Ethereal Reaping should force her to discard it. Perhaps add a non-suited trigger that allows her to keep it.

That's an interesting idea, though more play time may be necessary. This could mean in a number of situations she only ever gets one swing. That seems like a hamstring. I do think the Screaming Death Trigger should not work through a corpse marker.  I also think it unlikely they will change anything this soon. This is why I don't generally use the trigger for +1DMG as it discards the marker and sometimes I only have 1 marker in range of the target I want to hit. 

I am still far more concerned about facing Titania than Reva overall. She looks to be just brutal and I'm not sure how I'd handle her at all. 

I do think some of the blame falls with models like the Emissaries and Archie. I have never been a fan of any of the 10+SS models as I feel they tend to break things in game too much. 

[TheJoyInGaming]

I think that it is more to do with my opponents being psyched out by Reva in the first place. They try to force penalties on Ethereal by cheating so by the time i use Life Drain i can be pretty confidant of the max damage. That being said, i have top decked for the required suit and max damage with Life Drain before. Maybe i am getting luckier...

 

[Omenbringer]

On 9/14/2016 at 11:33 AM, Paddywhack said:

That's an interesting idea, though more play time may be necessary. This could mean in a number of situations she only ever gets one swing. That seems like a hamstring. I do think the Screaming Death Trigger should not work through a corpse marker.  I also think it unlikely they will change anything this soon. This is why I don't generally use the trigger for +1DMG as it discards the marker and sometimes I only have 1 marker in range of the target I want to hit. 

I am still far more concerned about facing Titania than Reva overall. She looks to be just brutal and I'm not sure how I'd handle her at all. 

I do think some of the blame falls with models like the Emissaries and Archie. I have never been a fan of any of the 10+SS models as I feel they tend to break things in game too much. 

That would be 1 attack at a potential 21" away from her that chooses the resisting stat and has some rather nasty triggers accompanying it, so I don't think it is that much of a penalty. She also doesn't hurt for Corpse Markers either. Adding a trigger to let her keep it for another attack would prevent the usage of the other Trigger which really push her over the top, i.e. the healing, the push, the extra damage, or the much maligned reduction-less damage. If it is that much of a hindrance though have them discard at the end of her activation instead of the end of her attack.

I do agree we aren't likely to see anything change until she hits general release and the next round of threads lamenting Reva spring up; that is unfortunate as it would be easier to fix it now than later. Wait and see with 1st edition Hamelin did a lot of damage to the communities despite his issues and fixes being discovered in the first few weeks of his release. I really don't want to see that happen again, community building is difficult, community destruction is all to easy.

I agree that a lot of the new Masters are likely to cause significant issues and not because they are new and people don't know what they do. While Titania is strong, Sandeep and Reva have her out classed in my opinion (Titania would be third in my list).

I also agree that a lot of the Reva issue has to do with the Carrion Emissary, particularly the Shards. Another issue is the Shield Bearers who punch significantly above their cost.

[Paddywhack]

17 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

That would be 1 attack at a potential 21" away from her that chooses the resisting stat and has some rather nasty triggers accompanying it, so I don't think it is that much of a penalty. She also doesn't hurt for Corpse Markers either. Adding a trigger to let her keep it for another attack would prevent the usage of the other Trigger which really push her over the top, i.e. the healing, the push, the extra damage, or the much maligned reduction-less damage. If it is that much of a hindrance though have them discard at the end of her activation instead of the end of her attack.

I do agree we aren't likely to see anything change until she hits general release and the next round of threads lamenting Reva spring up; that is unfortunate as it would be easier to fix it now than later. Wait and see with 1st edition Hamelin did a lot of damage to the communities despite his issues and fixes being discovered in the first few weeks of his release. I really don't want to see that happen again, community building is difficult, community destruction is all to easy.

I agree that a lot of the new Masters are likely to cause significant issues and not because they are new and people don't know what they do. While Titania is strong, Sandeep and Reva have her out classed in my opinion (Titania would be third in my list).

I also agree that a lot of the Reva issue has to do with the Carrion Emissary, particularly the Shards. Another issue is the Shield Bearers who punch significantly above their cost.

Well, the reduction-less damage is possible from Vince still. I still think most players aren't taking her 2SS upgrade to get it, as it really only stops Armour and that's expensive. Now Decaying Aura is much better and removes the need for Vincent to become a Master/Henchman killer. 

I thought about at the end of her Activation as well - that might help, but then she will be out of Corpse markers pretty quickly. Yes, she always gets one at the start of her activation, but only up to 8" away. Might as well Charge then if you only get 1 hit off. My biggest problem is I'm finding her kind of boring. She is very simple to use and that makes her very strong and in the hands of an experienced player ridiculous. I'm still playing her to get a handle on her, but will likely switch back to someone else soon. 

Sandeep is really that bad? I don't see him being quite the same level and certainly not a an NPE, but I haven't faced him yet on the table. 

I really dislike the Emissaries and the influx of 10+SS models in this book. I feel they tip things too far. The SBs are tough, but there are plenty of factions that have great minions like them, so I don't feel they are NPE. Maybe (maybe) Vigor is a slight bit over the top, but I think the same thing when facing other factions top tier minions  

[Omenbringer]

On 9/16/2016 at 11:38 AM, Paddywhack said:

Well, the reduction-less damage is possible from Vince still. I still think most players aren't taking her 2SS upgrade to get it, as it really only stops Armour and that's expensive. Now Decaying Aura is much better and removes the need for Vincent to become a Master/Henchman killer. 

I thought about at the end of her Activation as well - that might help, but then she will be out of Corpse markers pretty quickly. Yes, she always gets one at the start of her activation, but only up to 8" away. Might as well Charge then if you only get 1 hit off. My biggest problem is I'm finding her kind of boring. She is very simple to use and that makes her very strong and in the hands of an experienced player ridiculous. I'm still playing her to get a handle on her, but will likely switch back to someone else soon. 

Sandeep is really that bad? I don't see him being quite the same level and certainly not a an NPE, but I haven't faced him yet on the table. 

I really dislike the Emissaries and the influx of 10+SS models in this book. I feel they tip things too far. The SBs are tough, but there are plenty of factions that have great minions like them, so I don't feel they are NPE. Maybe (maybe) Vigor is a slight bit over the top, but I think the same thing when facing other factions top tier minions  

She can also receive another free mindless zombie per turn via the Carrion Emissary (who is also very good with her). I agree that is is very strong, even more so in the hands of a competent player. Unfortunately for us in Cleveland Slapdrone is an extremely competent player with the Resser faction.

Yes Sandepp is that bad, he is another that can be everywhere at once, influencing great swathes of the board. The primary difference between Reva and him is that he has a lot more book keeping than she does so has a higher learning curve. When piloted well he is a NPE.

I also agree that the Emissaries and the expensive models from this book are significantly above the power curve. That price point is difficult to balance, especially in the case of the Emissaries which are designed to offer the faction and each Master (non-book 4) some benefit. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, this has resulted in them being "auto-includes" since they out class the majority of their competition. Shield Bearers are really good and an absolute value for the Resser faction. They are an extremely difficult model to dislodge and also punch above their weight. Reva gets a lot of additional use out of them. They should really cost a SS or 2 more.