Neverborn Aid

[InvokeChaos]

Hello fellow Thunderites,

So I have a neverborn heavy meta (as in we have like 8 people are in our core group and 3 neverborn players, hehe). So I see a lot of Zoraida and Lilith. Some Dreamer. But Titania is now out and about and Pandora has been picked up.

Looking for general tactics as I feel that I am not putting the pieces together for dealing with the unborn curs. I've started bringing a lot of condition removal because between lilith's rooting, zoraida's hem and pandora's paralyze I was just getting wrecked.

Examples:

Played para-pandora (typical lilith list but with pan) and brought Shenlong with Yu and Chiaki. Lots of condition removal which allowed me to deal with Pan, but Nekima ran rampant because he took out my beater quite quickly. I made a major play mistake in not moving Yin to score points for interference, and that ultimately cost me the game, but I felt like I was on the back foot from the get-go. I think I needed one more beater to focus down Nekima, but I was so busy trying to not get paralyzed out of the game. He was in my face turn 1, inciting my models that were paralyzed, including my Master. I even had servant of the 7 dragons for the added WP.

Lilith is the reason I started bringing so much condition removal as I played against her and she nullified all my threats with her roots and blocking LoS.

Zoraida I feel I have a better chance with, but he runs iggy with the doll to stack upwards of 10 burning on a model, yet another reason to bring condition removal.

I played Shen against summoner dreamer with a widow weaver, and had to take out three teddies (running tannen and pulled red joker plus widow weaver got 4 corpses) before finally having to just concede, because all though the teddies were eviscerated by shenlong, it left the rest of his crew to do as it pleased because they were all locked down by widow weaver and his other models. His master 1AP was taking up my master 3AP. 

 

So overall, I think that my running condition removal heavily is a good idea, but I need to be able to deal with their threats that seem to be fairly mutable. I know in general they are considered to be glass cannons (other than their masters who are slippery as hell) but it seems like I figure out what I should bring against lilith, and it's too focused for pandora, which if I adjust is now weak vs zoraida... and that's not even accounting for Titania whom I've not played against yet (though I feel Asami is a solid counter there).

I wish I could give specific lists and battle reports, but it's been a while since I've played do to being abroad for work. So right now general tactics and advice would be appreciative. I know how to deal with Lynch as he is one of my go-to masters in 10T so I know him pretty forwards and backwards. It's the rest and just understanding what tools I need to really consider bringing.

I should also note that I've really only brought Shen against them, just by luck of the draw so to speak. I played misaki into misery pan not understanding how her attacks worked so that was bad news bears.

Thanks!

[edopersichetti]

I play Neverborn and I've had the hardest time against opponents that boost their Wp - one instance, Gremlins with Liquid Bravery, getting Stubborn (negative flips for me!)
I don't know Ten Thunders well enough to advice you on exactly how to do that, but boost your Wp is the main other thing you can do (condition removal is also always helpful).

Other than that, I feel every Neverborn master has a distinct and very unique playstyle, that is, unless players in your meta play the obnoxious "optimized" flavorless list (Nekima, Johan, Mr. Graves, Doppelganger etc.) I played against it once with a Zoraida list (his master was Lilith) and he was very annoying to play against, even though Nekima was almost dead twice (end of Turn 1 and end of Turn 3) due to my doll and only saved with plenty of good luck on his part. With Nekima dead you usually are in a pretty good spot to win the game. But I don't like people that play that sort of lists so I tend to not play with them. If that is the case in your meta, I'm sorry for you, I hope you get to play with some other people that enjoy a bit more fluff and play for fun!

[InvokeChaos]

Yeah Mr. Graves, Dopple and Nekima are all common takes. Don't see Johan much though.  Think the Pan/Lilith list is usually some model that has the sprint shenanigans, doppleganger, nekima, mr. graves... I want to say there's something else I'm forgetting that is a common pick. primordial magic with lilith of course... Lilitu... umm.... damn. Silurids, maybe... that's what they're called I think. 

Iggy makes an appearance once in a while, as well. Think that's the most of what I see. Misery Pan ran a sorrow and the emissary with upgrade. I've run into the emissary with Zoraida as well.

[InvokeChaos]

 

I play Neverborn and I've had the hardest time against opponents that boost their Wp - one instance, Gremlins with Liquid Bravery, getting Stubborn (negative flips for me!)
I don't know Ten Thunders well enough to advice you on exactly how to do that, but boost your Wp is the main other thing you can do (condition removal is also always helpful).

Yeah I am starting to run Servant of the Seven Dragons (+1 WP), smoke grenades ( to anything outside of 6"). Yin is a common take now ( to all attacks and damage flips, and can impose that as a condition for Ca and WP duels) and I have started to look at Sue as an auto include for his aura that says  flips to any Ca action against a friendly there. Oiran have come back up on my radar as well. 

My concern is that if I don't run Shen, I don't feel I have enough condition removal to handle NVB. I can run chiaki and monks of low river, but monks need to be close, and thus a target. And chiaki can't do more than 2 at a time. But I've been considering using McCabe.

My reasoning is that I can run promises on McCabe, which gives him stubborn. I can run Sot7D and grenades along with Yin still, but I can run Oiran (aura for +1 WP) and they are much more useful with their 0 upgrade (gives them fast and focused) if you hand them a saber.

[EnternalVoid]

First to note, Promises does not give McCabe Stubborn, it gives him a positive flip to Wp.  Big difference as Stubborn is a stronger ability in my opinion.

Going to be honest here, it almost sounds like you are playing their game.  Obviously I don't know all the details so cannot be 100% sure on it but it sounds like you are pursuing the options your opponents want to you.  From what you are saying it sounds like they are running a smallish crew, as between just Nekima, Mr. Grave and a Doppelganger they are using 28ss, that is not including any upgrades on them or the master so it would not be hard to imagine that your opponent is spending a little over 30ss on these four models.  If you include a Silurid and Lilitu in with that you are looking at around 45-47ss.  If that is the list they are only running 6 models, a lot of potential in 6 models but only six models.  But what it sounds like you are doing is loading up so much on "anti-neverborn" that you are limiting your own model count and selection.  At that point their list, which specializes in picking key models and killing them/disabling them is just dismantling you.  Again cannot be 100% sure I am reading your case here as I am not there but this is what it is sounding like.

My suggestion, throw them a curveball.  Don't try to play their game and instead try something different.  The first thing I would try is just numbers, of course only if you get the right Strategy.  I am not sure if you are using core book or gaining ground sets but numbers can make a difference in several of them.  For example, you can take Shenlong w/ Wandering River Style, A peasant, Chiaki, Yin, two 10T Brothers, and a Tengu or Low River Monk for 32ss.  That is 7 activations and if you will produce another Peasant on turn 1 to give you 8.  Even if you earmark 4ss for your pool you are looking at 14ss for the rest of your crew *could even take two snipers*.  Sure he could Root/Paralyze a models but there is a limit to how much he can do in a given turn and you can have Chiaki remove it from a key model to score VP.  If you spread at least a little it makes it harder for him to possible catch multiple models in his grip at a time.  Also with the 10T Brothers and Shenlong you can possible give enemy models slow and with Shenlong you can also push them away at the same time.  Nekima hates getting slow and not being in combat, as her impressive 3 attacks per turn transforms into just 1.  Lilith hates Yin hitting her with her (0) and then using Fear behind her Eyes to give her the condition that stops Walk and Charge actions.  To try and increase your chances you can pick off the models he uses to earn his VP, like the Silurid.  This at least would be my suggestion to try.

[InvokeChaos]

I have actually tried basically the list you have recommend, with sensei Yu with promising disciple and two tengu and one 10T bros instead. I also had an effigy, instead of the LRM. My typical shen long crew is 8-9 models. 

He basically just sent nekima out with mr graves and a dopple graves, double walking to my 10t bro and one shot it. My tengu did their job, but then the rest of my crew was dismantled via pandora's paralyze. By the time we called it I was down to 3 models, granted shenlong and yu, but it wasn't enough to handle him passing out paralyze every turn among other things. 

Maybe I am playing into it their game plan, but I'm not exactly limiting my activations or taking bad models. I think it's more my decisions on the field that is the problem. Also in that list, I had no way to restrict or remove Nekima.

[BigHammer]

With Shenlong, I'd advise making more use of High River Style; if a Pandora goes after him with Paralyse in mind, take a couple of wounds or so to boost your flip higher than hers and you never have to deal with the paralysis or the mood swings. If she's close enough to try that, she's then close enough for Shenlong to kill her (or at least hurt her and turn her soulstones off). If she goes for the rest of your crew, Shenlong has an easier time killing her (go High River again and punch her to death at Ml7, 8 or 9 if needed).

Also, for secondary condition removal with Shenlong, don't bring Chiaki; bring the Shadow Emissary instead, which has the added benefit of being able to kill pesky Nekimas as well (although Shenlong also makes short work of her using Fermented style and, again, turning off her soulstones). You can also bring a low river monk for the healing and condition removal, and the ability for Shenlong's Emissary to draw three cards using the Monk each turn as well. There's no way a paralysis Pandora keeps up with that much condition denial/removal.

As for Nekima, she's a pain due to Wk6 and flight with Melee Expert, but if you can't kill her on any given turn you can always push her around a bit to reduce the number of attacks she gets. Her Wp 7 can be a problem for Mighty Gust at Ca6, though, so don't rely on it.

When you say "my beater was dead" does that mean you only brought one model (other than Shenlong) capable of killing enemy models? If you find that becoming a problem (or even if you don't...) bring another. Perhaps even a third. Shenlong crews have a lot of healing and a lot of AP efficiency, so you can get away with small, elite crews and still keep up with your opponent by giving your models exaggerated threat ranges (5" push and fast = +10" or so to most models' threats, getting around activation advantage rather brutally in most cases).

[InvokeChaos]

How does Shadow Emissary deal with conditions? Or do you mean just rely on Shenlong for condition removal?

[WeaponX24]

I think he means the fast that the emissary hands out will cancel the slow. It also gives a small push which can be nice for getting a little extra distance. Also, Yamaziko might be a model to consider. She has stubborn, brace yari for Nekima charges, and can put some hurt on masters.

Edited September 5, 2016 by WeaponX24

[Tokapondora]

Or, yknow, "Visions of Dawn Light: End a Condition on target friendly model within 6"

[InvokeChaos]

Right his shen upgrade, totally was thinking his base card only.  My bad!

[Da Git]

Another interesting way to deal with Nekima could be Komainu.  At 6wounds, armour 1 and Htk, it should take Nekima's full activation to kill one, then if you also have Toshiro, he can raise it straight back up to take another two AP to kill. 

[santaclaws01]

 

Another interesting way to deal with Nekima could be Komainu.  At 6wounds, armour 1 and Htk, it should take Nekima's full activation to kill one, then if you also have Toshiro, he can raise it straight back up to take another two AP to kill. 

Whack it twice then bleed herself and she can be off on her merry way.

[EnternalVoid]

 

He basically just sent nekima out with mr graves and a dopple graves, double walking to my 10t bro and one shot it. My tengu did their job, but then the rest of my crew was dismantled via pandora's paralyze. By the time we called it I was down to 3 models, granted shenlong and yu, but it wasn't enough to handle him passing out paralyze every turn among other things.

Question, how many people is Pandora managing to Paralyze a turn?  Seeing as the suit is not built in, if she uses the upgrade that can give the suit she is not using her Incite action, and her range attack has a gun icon I am curious how much paralyze he is throwing around.

I have played against this sort of list before and I have won against it with out having to remove Nekima so I know it is possible to do so I am trying to build a better picture to offer advice.

[InvokeChaos]

2-3. He used the incite at first to help move her into position and then was able to go from there. I don't rightly remember but I do not believe he incited same turn as the 0 to get the suits. 

But he did pass out paralyze every turn. I am thinking maybe iggy was used, or somethjng because he had a second source of incite. 

[MuMantai]

I have played against Paralyse-Pandora a fair share of times, although mostly with Arcanists. The gameplan there was to paralyse my master (Ramos, mostly) most of the time, as this really hurts my crew. If he does that to Shen Long, I would just say "Fine, do it, I don't care" and go on with my turn, as he has just given up his best activation plus a lot of resources to take my masters activation.

 

That said, it is important to know the limitations of that tactic. He needs the paralyse (1)(Ca6, Rng 10P or Ca7, Rng 3M) on the model, he needs a high enough crow and ideally he needs incite on the model as well. Incite is a (0)(Wp7, Rng 12) with a trigger on Tomes to do it again.

First thing to realize ist that your enemy has only one try to get incite on the target (plus Iggy, but lets stay at Pandora here). Deny that, and you deny almost the whole thing, as your model may be paralysed, but you can remove it, and Pandora may not be in range to paralyse anyway as there is no push.

Second, the range paralyse is Ca6, and has a projectile, so cover counts. So, against Pandora, always have your important models in cover! That way, Pandora has either to focus, or to invest a soulstone to have even a chance to paralyse almost anything, and that is before the potential soulstone for the crow. Having a model in melee with Pandora means she can't paralyse in range and having the target in melee means she has to randomize.

When Pandora get in melee, her only way out is either incite or getting attacked. She has a lot easier time paralysing targets that way, but she is vulnerable. One trick is to surround her before attacking her, so she can't get away, and then focussing her down. Do this once or twice, to keep your opponent on their toes, but usually it is too recource intensive to do. I have gotten better results with ignoring her altogether and focussing her crew.

 

Keeping that limitations in mind, she should never paralyse more than one or two models, and most of the time, that is fine. I really like the High River Style trick, preventing the incite or the one to two attempts to paralyse completely. Keep in mind, paralysed activations are activations, so you should still outactivate the elite neverborn crew. Using this to your advantage is the tricky part

[qoob]

 

Hello fellow Thunderites,

So I have a neverborn heavy meta (as in we have like 8 people are in our core group and 3 neverborn players, hehe). So I see a lot of Zoraida and Lilith. Some Dreamer. But Titania is now out and about and Pandora has been picked up.

Looking for general tactics as I feel that I am not putting the pieces together for dealing with the unborn curs. I've started bringing a lot of condition removal because between lilith's rooting, zoraida's hem and pandora's paralyze I was just getting wrecked.

Examples:

Played para-pandora (typical lilith list but with pan) and brought Shenlong with Yu and Chiaki. Lots of condition removal which allowed me to deal with Pan, but Nekima ran rampant because he took out my beater quite quickly. I made a major play mistake in not moving Yin to score points for interference, and that ultimately cost me the game, but I felt like I was on the back foot from the get-go. I think I needed one more beater to focus down Nekima, but I was so busy trying to not get paralyzed out of the game. He was in my face turn 1, inciting my models that were paralyzed, including my Master. I even had servant of the 7 dragons for the added WP.

Lilith is the reason I started bringing so much condition removal as I played against her and she nullified all my threats with her roots and blocking LoS.

Zoraida I feel I have a better chance with, but he runs iggy with the doll to stack upwards of 10 burning on a model, yet another reason to bring condition removal.

I played Shen against summoner dreamer with a widow weaver, and had to take out three teddies (running tannen and pulled red joker plus widow weaver got 4 corpses) before finally having to just concede, because all though the teddies were eviscerated by shenlong, it left the rest of his crew to do as it pleased because they were all locked down by widow weaver and his other models. His master 1AP was taking up my master 3AP. 

 

So overall, I think that my running condition removal heavily is a good idea, but I need to be able to deal with their threats that seem to be fairly mutable. I know in general they are considered to be glass cannons (other than their masters who are slippery as hell) but it seems like I figure out what I should bring against lilith, and it's too focused for pandora, which if I adjust is now weak vs zoraida... and that's not even accounting for Titania whom I've not played against yet (though I feel Asami is a solid counter there).

I wish I could give specific lists and battle reports, but it's been a while since I've played do to being abroad for work. So right now general tactics and advice would be appreciative. I know how to deal with Lynch as he is one of my go-to masters in 10T so I know him pretty forwards and backwards. It's the rest and just understanding what tools I need to really consider bringing.

I should also note that I've really only brought Shen against them, just by luck of the draw so to speak. I played misaki into misery pan not understanding how her attacks worked so that was bad news bears.

Thanks!

Nekima is not that resilient. A sniper is a good way to keep her at distance. A double Focus shot with Shenlong is easy to setup.

I'm not a big fan of Yin tbh...I would take a Lone Swordsman instead but that's just me personal opinion - He is a beast with Recalled Training.

Condition Removal is a good thing - but that should not be the Focus. A LRM or maybe Johan are enough imo.

Shenlong is a good Master to go. With his Burning Chi he has the Chance avoiding getting mood swing or paralyze.

Mei Feng is immune to paralyze. Maybe give her a shot?

 

 

[edopersichetti]

 

Yeah I am starting to run Servant of the Seven Dragons (+1 WP), smoke grenades ( to anything outside of 6"). Yin is a common take now ( to all attacks and damage flips, and can impose that as a condition for Ca and WP duels) and I have started to look at Sue as an auto include for his aura that says  flips to any Ca action against a friendly there. Oiran have come back up on my radar as well. 

My concern is that if I don't run Shen, I don't feel I have enough condition removal to handle NVB. I can run chiaki and monks of low river, but monks need to be close, and thus a target. And chiaki can't do more than 2 at a time. But I've been considering using McCabe.

My reasoning is that I can run promises on McCabe, which gives him stubborn. I can run Sot7D and grenades along with Yin still, but I can run Oiran (aura for +1 WP) and they are much more useful with their 0 upgrade (gives them fast and focused) if you hand them a saber.

Ok that sounds like a good idea. In particular, I've played against Yin (even though it was as a Resser) and truly it was a nuisance.

Depending on the crew you're facing, Wp resistance might be even more important than condition removal...

[edopersichetti]

 

Nekima is not that resilient. A sniper is a good way to keep her at distance. A double Focus shot with Shenlong is easy to setup.

I'm not a big fan of Yin tbh...I would take a Lone Swordsman instead but that's just me personal opinion - He is a beast with Recalled Training.

Condition Removal is a good thing - but that should not be the Focus. A LRM or maybe Johan are enough imo.

Shenlong is a good Master to go. With his Burning Chi he has the Chance avoiding getting mood swing or paralyze.

Mei Feng is immune to paralyze. Maybe give her a shot?

 

 

The problem with these obnoxious "optimized" Neverborn lists is that they have found the way to go around that. Graves + Doppleganger means Nekima can be in your deployment zone without even activating herself. I've literally seen her starting to kill stuff Turn 1. Obviously, Nekima in your face Turn 1 isn't pleasant - add that she can essentially one-shot most regular models.

Any attempts to kill her are very complicated, as she can heal herself, but also has Johan to remove conditions and Doppleganger to backup: in my case I had managed to pin her down with doll, paralyze her and stack quite a lot of poison on her, but before I could expunge it and kill her (with a Performer) he Doppleganger-ed Johan, removed condition, and it was game over.

I don't know how Pandora works with this crew, my opponent was playing Lilith and it was horrible: she can provide cover, and tangle shadows can really mess up your plans. 

So yeah she's not that resilient but if you have her in your face Turn 1 and she one-shots the two-three key models in your crew, it's going to ruin your day whatever your plans were...

[Jokerboy]

If you mostly play Shen against Neverborn there should be no problem. Since he is the King of Conditions on his own and much more with his Crew.

And with the aggressive play style you can kill nearly every NB Master first turn. Get him Fast, Push him -> First hit is always SS denial -> then two hits with max damage (should be no problem with MI 9 [Highriver Style], Focus and Recalled training).

Tried it many times and there is nearly no way around.

[Lakshman]

Unless of course the opponent has the Mysterious effigy and pushes away after first attack. Than you can walk up and hit again, but two hits are rarely enough.

[InvokeChaos]

All great advice so far, thanks fellows!

I need to abuse High River Style more often. I forget that I can use it on any duel, not just Ml.

@edopersichetti Is right, I have Nekima in my face turn 1 pretty much always.

I like the idea of Lone Swordman, @qoob and am kicking myself for not thinking of it before you mentioned it. My very first game against lilith the Lone Swordsman was with Misaki and he one rounded Nekima with double severe on no soulstone triggers... I don't expect that to happen, but he's a legitimate threat!

@Shen Long Valid point. I don't play him aggressive often, but this might be the time to.

[qoob]

 

If you mostly play Shen against Neverborn there should be no problem. Since he is the King of Conditions on his own and much more with his Crew.

And with the aggressive play style you can kill nearly every NB Master first turn. Get him Fast, Push him -> First hit is always SS denial -> then two hits with max damage (should be no problem with MI 9 [Highriver Style], Focus and Recalled training).

Tried it many times and there is nearly no way around.

Exactly. He is btw the genius who taught me the aggressive shenlong play style 

[Eclipse]

I support what has been said about Yamaziko, she is Stubborn and also likes to mess up the opposing side's charges.
Many have already commented on Shenlong (and have more experienceplaying him) so  
I discovered the Doppel - Graves - Nekima express when searching for solutions for Lucius in Neverborn (no Johan though). The charge needs a lot of support (2+ models) and also fears receiving a counter attack. Spread your crew so that the models will be hard to get to, if Nekima can not (0) slash her wrist to Black Blood something she has more trouble finishing things. Take two beaters, at least one of them with two different defensive mechanisms to eat her AP if she attacks it. Threaten to throw that beater in her face. Better yet, throw the beater in her face anyway, before she can charge you - so she gets to squeal in pain while your other models advance and get ready to smack her down for good.
Pandora can be very scary when Paralyzing your stuff, but you can hide from her in cover and also send assassins after her crew. Take out the support pieces and she will disable some model, but do pretty much nothing else.
Lilith likes fighting on her terms, she is a prowling predator, not a brawler. Shove something scary of your own in her face. Maybe take out an important piece of her crew.
Zoraida has amazing combos, but needs to set them up. This will often leave you a window of opportunity to remove conditions or change the battlefield positioning.
Archers and Samurai might have trouble with Neverborn (who are in your face fast and attack Wp). Snipers don't have such problems, Neverborn have problems with snipers.
Blocking charge lanes with models is a thing. It's hard to pull off, but if you have some hardy and/or expendable models just throw them in the way of the enemy model's charge lanes. Use the terrain the create choke points where to gun down the alpha strikes and stay in cover or out of LoS. Send killers of your own to hunt the opposing models you have identified as important for the other player. Dismantling the synergy of the Neverborn goes a long way.

[edopersichetti]

 

Unless of course the opponent has the Mysterious effigy and pushes away after first attack. Than you can walk up and hit again, but two hits are rarely enough.

Quote. Neverborn masters are usually squishy: Pandora can push away on her own, Collodi can sacrifice his marionettes, Lynch squeels, The Dreamer, besides being incorporeal, can protect himself with the Daydreams...Lilith is perhaps the most fragile, but good luck pinning her down!