Balancing Reason Around Summoned Belles?

[Velcro]

I played my first game last night against Seamus and I was using a Lilith crew. This isn't really a "OMG cuddle EVERYTHING" post, but more of a curiosity. Most summons in the game come into play with half health, but Belles get their full 8hp, and they're remarkably good. Why do they get their full strength after being summoned?

Now this was both of our first game of Malifaux ever, so clearly we are noobs. We've played WMH for some years though, and before that we played WHFB so wargaming isn't new to us. Malifaux is, however, so we're still very unfamiliar with the game, models, and abilities.

[Durza]

I assume because it's a (0) to summon one and Seamus can only summon Belles and doxies.

Mcmourning can summon a full health flesh construct if he kills something with expunge if you want to talk about full health summons

[lusciousmccabe]

Not an expert on Seamus by any means, but I believe his Belles come in at full health because he can only summon one of them per round and needs a corpse marker to do so. You see the same kind of thing with McMourning summoning off his (0) Expunge. The more summoning focused masters tend to make injured models but have more options as to what they summon and can make up to 3 per activaion, given the necessary resources. 

[Kadeton]

Seamus also has no way to heal his summoned Belles, while Masters like Nicodem and Kirai can.

The balance of summoning has a lot of different factors - every summoner uses a different mechanism to achieve their summoning, is subject to different limitations and resource or situational requirements, and has different suites of support abilities to help their summons out. One of the balancing advantages of Seamus' severely limited summoning pool, (0) action summon, Corpse requirement and no significant support abilities is that his summons come in at full health. Nicodem will still out-summon him every day of the week.

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Seamus also has no way to heal his summoned Belles

Anyone can hire a Nurse...

[EnternalVoid]

Lets Be Fair here.  Nurses are not exactly a good example with the whole paralyze on top of the healing.  You are basically giving up a turn for a heal, and generally models summoned onto the table have less total AP as other models unless they were summoned on First turn *and even then are normally slow*.  In the example of Nicodem and Kirai above they have means of healing a model, not a full heal mind you, but it does not leave the model paralyzed.  So yes Seamus has no way of healing his summoned Belles, though a hired additional model could.

[Bengt]

4 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

Lets Be Fair here.  Nurses are not exactly a good example with the whole paralyze on top of the healing.  You are basically giving up a turn for a heal, and generally models summoned onto the table have less total AP as other models unless they were summoned on First turn *and even then are normally slow*.  In the example of Nicodem and Kirai above they have means of healing a model, not a full heal mind you, but it does not leave the model paralyzed.  So yes Seamus has no way of healing his summoned Belles, though a hired additional model could.

One could also argue that the paralyse is less significant if the model is already slow. I certainly think that claiming there is "no way of healing them" is disingenuous. One could put forth that Seamus has fewer healing options than Kirai, but I guess that sounds less dramatic...

[EnternalVoid]

1 minute ago, Bengt said:

One could also argue that the paralyse is less significant if the model is already slow. I certainly think that claiming there is "no way of healing them" is disingenuous. One could put forth that Seamus has fewer healing options than Kirai, but I guess that sounds less dramatic...

I see your point but I believe he was strait out saying Seamus has no way of healing them like Nico and Kirai can, as in the Seamus model has no way to heal them.  Yes I can not read minds but the fact he referenced two masters that can heal their summons immediately after his statement seems to suggest that to me.  

And yes paralyze is less significant to a model already slow, but that is still one AP you are loosing on top of two you don't get every turn after the first.  Paralyzing a summoned model turn two means at most it is getting 6 AP if the game goes only 5 rounds, where other healing would still give it 7 AP.  Less significant, yes but every AP is pretty valuable.

[Mikey_C]

I think the reason his belles come in at full health is because when the situation calls for a punk zombie immune to slow so it can flurry, Seamus can't provide that.

Also as mentioned his summon is a (0) so he can only do it once a turn. Where as theoretically Nicodem could summon 3 punk zombies all ready to flurry.

 

Also, even when the situation calls for summoning in a Rotten Belle for a lure both Nicodem and Molly can do that (arguably they even do it better, as Nico's belle isn't slow, and Molly can either reactivate her belle or give it a (1) ap action). 

[Adran]

I would say you are looking at this slight the wrong way. 

Its not a case that Belles get summoned in on full wounds, its that Seamus' summoning doesn't harm the model. If Nicodem or Molly summoned a belle it would still be wounded. 

So we have to change the question to Why does seamus summon without damaging? 

And he isn't unique in this, several other models will summon fully healthy models. He is limited to it being done with a (0) action, so only 1 attempt a turn, and he is limited by needing a corpse and having a very small selection of models he can summon. 

[Math Mathonwy]

As a random observation, Taxidermin', being a (0)Action that requires a Corpse Marker and sporting a very limited summon pool, also summons a full health model (Stuffed Piglet in this case).

[Fireuser]

Seamus has other limitations as well.

Back Alley cannot be used if an enemy has LoS to him.

His gun is once per turn and his melee attack is really only there so he has an engagement range and can use the trigger to push.

If the Belles or his summoning are altered, he loses a lot more than the other models that summon the Belles.

Play a game using Seamus if you have not done so already.  Working with all of his limitations is not as easy as it seems from the other side of the table.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Agreed. Personally, some of his limitations, mainly the not being able to drop scheme markers after using Back Ally I think made sense when it was tested, but given the amount of masters that now spew scheme markers like ever flowing rivers, I'm not sure if that limitation is so relevant any more, though to be clear I'm not saying it should change.

[Kadeton]

 

Agreed. Personally, some of his limitations, mainly the not being able to drop scheme markers after using Back Ally I think made sense when it was tested, but given the amount of masters that now spew scheme markers like ever flowing rivers, I'm not sure if that limitation is so relevant any more, though to be clear I'm not saying it should change.

The ability to Back Alley 16" away, drop a Scheme, and return to where you started (or to a better position) would make Seamus one of the most elusive and far-reaching schemers in the game, I think it's fair to say. He would still not be able to match the number of scheme markers that someone like Titania can put out, but no other Master has the kind of penetration into unoccupied territory (while remaining in complete safety) that Interacts after a Back Alley would provide.

All that sounds well within his thematic scope, though!

[benjoewoo]

There's always the bag and smacking CCK for dropping a marker or two. Can always turn CCK into a belle or RCK back out. Not exactly ideal given CCK's high impact potential, but for a 1 SS upgrade and 9crow/stone, you convert CCK into a 5/6 SS model with full wounds, decent survivability, and good movement manipulation deep in enemy territory. 

[yipiyip]

 

There's always the bag and smacking CCK for dropping a marker or two. Can always turn CCK into a belle or RCK back out. Not exactly ideal given CCK's high impact potential, but for a 1 SS upgrade and 9crow/stone, you convert CCK into a 5/6 SS model with full wounds, decent survivability, and good movement manipulation deep in enemy territory. 

I don't play Seamus.... What?

[Eclipse]

 

There's always the bag and smacking CCK for dropping a marker or two. Can always turn CCK into a belle or RCK back out. Not exactly ideal given CCK's high impact potential, but for a 1 SS upgrade and 9crow/stone, you convert CCK into a 5/6 SS model with full wounds, decent survivability, and good movement manipulation deep in enemy territory. 

There's nothing like rewarding devout followers who want to be like you by smacking them to death and then returning them to un-life as a female hooker.
...My Malifaux Child is carefully taking notes to self.

[yipiyip]

 

with bag of tools, you can aim to getting the trigger that lets you place scheme markers, or just kill the totem for the corpse token (to summon a belle or scape)

Ahhh okay, Copy Cat Killer and Red Chapel Killer. Got it xD