Sandeep discussion

[Jordon]

Yeah I think each faction has their henchmen in which all other henchmen are compared. Fransisco, Cassandra and Sensei Yu to name a few off the top of my head. Arcanists have the luxury of having more than a few rock solid henchmen to choose from so it can be hard deciding where to spend your stones.

This wave is actually a bit odd for us as we got 7 new models and three of them are henchmen and I'm pretty excited to try all of them. It seems like they were very careful in trying to give us models that don't try and compete directly with our other henchmen. Each henchmen brings something new which I think is more important than simply making them comparable to our current roster. 

Amina is a heavy support/denial henchmen which is a very welcome breath of fresh air and I believe will be a staple with Ironsides. If you manage your resources correctly with her you can pull of a multitude of AP which is a pretty unique mechanic for us. She's also academic and i'm not sure how relevant that will be yet.

Carlos is basically a 10ss model (9 with Colette!) as his upgrade is basically mandatory it's so good. I see him as a model that will be a tarpit and occasionally a heavy hitter. He's obviously geared towards Kaeris given his affinity to being on fire, but he actually seems pretty self sufficient. I feel like he's got some depth and it'll take a while to figure out how best to use him. He's also a showgirl which again I don't know how relevant that will actually be.

Finally we have Kudra. I think her cost is her key feature, competing mostly with the firestarter. She seems like a solid all rounder, which can be difficult to compare with other more specialized models. She's fast, decently hitty, reasonably survivable and very resource friendly. Minor illusion is also pretty decent support ability even if it's only one marker. I'm not sure how much game she'll have outside of Sandeep but she definitely seems like a solid investment at 7ss.  

[Tayne]

 

Given that Kudra is cheaper and fits in a different crew slot is that really fair?

It seems that Kudra's better comparison in terms of points, scheme running and more niche role would be the Firestarter.  Both are costed at the lower end and seem to be equipped as good scheme running henchmen, Kudra does some poison and thousand cuts damage, Firestarter does burning and some aoe.

Cassandra is worth 2SS more and for that you get real flexibility in purpose which you can't expect Kudra to have.  In addition Cassandra is possibly the best value model Arcanists have for all around flexibility so you're comparing our 'A' grade and finding she falls short.

Kudra it seems is very important to Sandeep builds with her upgrade to cycle Gamin and the attached upgrades for summons.  Otherwise she is very niche I think, cheap enough to throw in and be useful in games but not likely to swing games on her own (which Cassie certainly can).  I've yet to really explore her but as an Academic she will buff certain models, her poison could be good in certain builds and as stated she is fast and as a henchman dangerous/durable enough to be a solid scheme runner or disruption missile.

But yeah, she won't be Cassandra.

Cassie is only 8SS, not 9. Unless you assume Practiced Production is stapled to her card, which many do...

I think the reference is fair, in the way I want to use Kudra, she's unlikely to buff the Oxfordians as she quickly outpaces them. Cassandra's nimble plus 10" threat range beats her on this. Four weak attacks on the charge... I want it to be good, really I do. The imagery alone is fantastic, but then I think that Cassandra is significantly more likely to be able to charge due to nimble with her sword threatening a greater burst damage.

Kudra's upgrade is a thing and I need to test how frequently using the 0 to kill a gamin works. For the record, I think Sandeep is vulnerable to Hunting Party (Bana is vulnerable before he can steal armour/be made incorporeal) and the 0 helps to mitigate this. However, this then makes her the same cost as a naked Cassandra so the question becomes one of value.

Yes, Cassandra is awesome. We have access to her, unless we're trying to stick in theme then the comparison will be made. I don't think the 1SS rebate is enough to discount the comparison.

As for the Firestarter, she has Reckless and Flight plus is M&SU which is a buff on it's own to the Oxfordians. He's worse at hunting scheme runners than both Cassandra and Kudra but better at actually running the schemes himself. I think Cassandra fits the role I was aiming Kudra far more neatly than The Firestarter.

[angyi]

Kudra seems to be able to eradicate those targets that have various defense mechanics but not necessarily a truckload of wounds. Add in a performer for the occasional finishing blow. I'm really excited about her, four attacks on a charge w/ poison is something to experiment with, especially since she's cheap enough to fit in almost any crew build. Eg. what if the wendigo gives her frozen heart, then she charges something that's sitting 6+1+1=8 inches from an ice gamin? Must try.

[Fog]

Hmm, might take her in henchman hardcore, with the effigy. Almost doubles her damage

[Jordon]

Also lets not forget that minor illusion can be a real dirty ability. Being able to drop these forrest markers over other markers such as scheme/squat markers effectively prevents the opponent from tampering with them.

Even when used in more typical ways they can be used to provide cover to friendlies, block LOS from key threats and otherwise slow a model down. The fact that they stay in play even if Kudra dies is just awesome too.

[Tayne]

 

Also lets not forget that minor illusion can be a real dirty ability. Being able to drop these forrest markers over other markers such as scheme/squat markers effectively prevents the opponent from tampering with them.

I had indeed forgotten that and it's an awesome ability that's pretty tough to find outside of masters. That definitely does give her something to bring to the table over other options, both Cassandra and The Firestarter.

[spooky_squirrel]

 

Amina is a heavy support/denial henchmen which is a very welcome breath of fresh air and I believe will be a staple with Ironsides. If you manage your resources correctly with her you can pull of a multitude of AP which is a pretty unique mechanic for us. She's also academic and i'm not sure how relevant that will be yet.

If you're running Amina with the Oxfordian Mages, her being around them helps their Resonance and Student Loans. This lets you space them out more if bringing all 3, or just bring the two that give your Warding Runes target(s) regen and condition immunity and still maximize their resonance. This could be used to help Sandeep trigger off of the Oxfordian Mages if you bring her along with him, but there's nothing restricting this setup to just him (and other crews might like the denial aspect a little more).

[Wyrmfist]

Tonight I had a steam arachnid swarm within range of the Commands in Wind aura take out Aeslin and The Claw in one activation.  Positives to attack and damage with the built in overwhelm trigger were grossly effective.

[Fictor]

One question, why all people add 2 upgrades on the Oxfordian Mages? the new upgrade not counts for the limit?

[decker_cky]

Correct. With Killswitch/decoy, you can actually give them three upgrades each.

[CougDyver]

 

Correct. With Killswitch/decoy, you can actually give them three upgrades each.

Which is awesome! Love the look on my opponents face when I say I'm running 15+ upgrades... Makes me so happy.

[Tayne]

So, I'm back from a story encounter day and had three more games with Sandeep, so I thought I'd share my gleanings.

First off, Kudra. Actually, first off some background. The day had the rule that if a named, non-master died then you flipped a card. If anything other than an 11, 12 or 13 was flipped then you could not use that model again. Also, as it's story encounters and we all played for fun, we shuffled the rulebook schemes (plus the Arcanist faction scheme) together and dealt two at random. So game 1, I got Frame for Murder and set it on Kudra.

That's a long way of saying I only used Kudra for one game, and in that game I wanted her to die. She did, but not to Collodi (and he had no henchmen) so just 2vp for me. I remembered to use her 0 today! The forest was ok, did end up hampering me and I could have placed it in better spot if Kudra had lived. Still, it was a factor in the game and it is something unique to her. Her Butterfly Jump could have saved her at least once, but again, wanted her to die. There is potential here with her I reckon, I need to get Wind Gamin so I can try her at Ml7 and charge... In later rounds I replaced her with Cassandra who did all her usual amazing things.

Banasuva. I only summoned him once per game, always at the end of turn 1 and he invariable disrupted the enemy. He's immense, though squishy and a great tool to use. I will always hire one gamin with Sandeep, as I often want the mobility to get Banasuva out/flexibility to not need an 8 as well as a 12 in hand. Give him a mid level target (and plus flips) and he can destroy them quickly, give him a heavier one and he can get them worried. Give him a Rail Golem and... not so much happens, but hey ho. He did get some wounds off it ready for...

Oxfordian Mages. Three of these were my stars of the day. Furious casting with ignoring armour smacked the Rail Golem hard, as well as assorted other models. Being able to use Beacon to place for a 0 meant I could do this and get around cover, or I just had a gamin nearby giving plus flips to attack. I had liked them with my few, pre book 4 games when I had pulled them out and this has just solidified my love of them. Temporary shielding was used and meant... heh, now I think of it all three survived all three games. Cool. The would have performed better in game 1 (vs Collodi) if I'd had an M&SU Henchman though.

Has anyone found a proxy for Amina perchance?

Valedictorian. Highly mobile, she did... not much for me all day. It's probably more how I was using her rather than any fault on her part, but I missed her triggers on the few attacks she did get to do and contributed little. That said, Flight, WK6 and a 3" melee was all used and is solid. I'm going to experiment without her for a while to compare, mosty she's done for 12SS what the Firestarter could have done for 7 (and buffed the Oxfordians).

That's about all for now except to ask again, has anyone found a proxy for Amina? I would love to try her out.

 

[angyi]

 

That's about all for now except to ask again, has anyone found a proxy for Amina? I would love to try her out.

How about Juliette Kaim from the AT range.

[Tayne]

 

How about Juliette Kaim from the AT range.

I love the model but it seems to be unavailable pretty much everywhere I can think to look.

[Fictor]

Another Sandeep question, if you summon a Gamin MUST take one of your 0 upgrades? and Banasuva counts for this too? All Commands are bad for Banasuva xD, no Atack, no Move or no Cheat xD

[balgor]

 

Another Sandeep question, if you summon a Gamin MUST take one of your 0 upgrades? and Banasuva counts for this too? All Commands are bad for Banasuva xD, no Atack, no Move or no Cheat xD

I have used the No move upgrade on him.  He can still use Sandeep's 0 place to catch your opponent off guard.

[Tayne]

 

I have used the No move upgrade on him.  He can still use Sandeep's 0 place to catch your opponent off guard.

I have used this each time, usually at the end of turn one right after summoning the Gamin that grants + flips to attack. That scares people, doubly so if you stick him somewhere they need to be (Squatters/Stash markers etc)

[MuMantai]

 

Another Sandeep question, if you summon a Gamin MUST take one of your 0 upgrades? and Banasuva counts for this too? All Commands are bad for Banasuva xD, no Atack, no Move or no Cheat xD

Yes, you have to give one of the upgrades to each summoned Gamin. Which also means: No upgrades, no summons.

For Banasuva you can take either the Commands of Earth, and he can shift around with the place from Sandeep (Bonus points for 3" melee, and no lure/push for the enemy), or the Command of fire. No cheating is bad, but with positive flips its managable, and immune to slow is awesome!

[dancater]

Just checking something, seems obvious.  The immune to slow would mean Banasuva summons with Command of Fire with the full 2 AP on the turn when summoned.  Summon sickness causes slow but he'd be immune, I got my book today  was reading through it and that little fact occurred to me.  

Want to check I am not missing some blindingly obvious rule however.

[solkan]

 

Just checking something, seems obvious.  The immune to slow would mean Banasuva summons with Command of Fire with the full 2 AP on the turn when summoned.  Summon sickness causes slow but he'd be immune, I got my book today  was reading through it and that little fact occurred to me.  

Want to check I am not missing some blindingly obvious rule however.

I object on two technical senses:

1.  There's no such thing as "Summon sickness" in the rules. 

2.  If you're going to use "Summon Sickness" to describe something, it's the Slow gained by being summoned.  The jet lag the model experiences upon arrival is the Slow condition. 

Otherwise, the Immunity rules are thorough enough that you don't even have to argue about the timing of attaching the upgrade.

[Jordon]

Just had my first outing with Sandeep last night. I played against Nellie in a Guard the Stash strategy. The schemes were neutralize the leader, undercover entourage, leave your mark and take prisoner. We both ended up taking undercover entourage and leave your mark. My list consisted of the following

Sandeep - Commands upgrade, Academic upgrade, Incorporeal upgrade

Kudra w/ gamin upgrade

Valedictorian 

3x Ox Mages

Sanctioned Spellcaster

Firestarter w/ warding runes

 

The game ended in a draw as neither of us could prevent the other from scoring. Once I got the firestarter on top of of a building in the enemy deployment zone, he stayed there scoring me undercover encourage and leave your mark. Having warding runes meant he could go reckless and retain his Wds. He scored me all my scheme points but it was a bit risky investing everything into a relatively weak model but luckily Sandeep was able to keep his crew occupied while the firestarter snuck by. 

We mostly stumbled through it, making lots of mistakes I'm sure. I felt like my best models were definitely the mages. Their ability to kill/push/slow models meant that they absolutely controlled the field. With their new upgrade, they can withstand a punch at least somewhat competently, especially for a now 5ss model. The sanctioned was ace particularly because of his no push buff, but I also got some decent milage from his no charge trigger. Sandeep himself didn't really end up doing too much. I did manage to summon Banasuva but placed him terribly next to an unactivated Johan who activated and killed him in a single activation. I do think you'll need to be careful when placing him but otherwise it was my fault.

Overall I think it's somewhat of a bad match for this list as Nellie's ability to hold off activations really shut down all the arcane shield's this crew had. I also noticed that the crew can be really mask starved as it seems like most of Sandeep's abilities and triggers rely on them. I still need to figure out how best to use Kudra as she didn't really end up doing a whole lot this game. The Valedictorian is totally legit and was able to handle a great deal of punishment (ridiculously so with incorporeal). I'd like to try out Amina next time to see what she brings to the table. 

[Guslado]

Third outing with Sandeep last night, definitely the most successful so far.

We played Guard the Stash (corner deployment), Schemes were: Convict Labor, Take Prisoner, Leave Your Mark, Covert Breakthrough, and Inspection. He played Reva; I don't remember his exact list, but it was basically her crew box minus Corpse Candles (he summoned those in) plus Anna Lovelace, Bette Noir, and a Necropunk. I brought:

Sandeep Desai + 6 Pool
- To Command Another Plane (1)
- Unaligned Sage (1)
Cassandra (8)
- Practiced Production (1)
- Warding Runes (1)
Kudra (7)
- Warding Runes (1)
- Free of Mortal Shackles (1)
Oxfordian Mage (5)
- Blood Ward (0)
- Temporary Shielding (0)
Oxfordian Mage (5)
- Nemesis Ward (0)
- Temporary Shielding (0)
Oxfordian Mage (5)
- Doom Ward (0)
- Temporary Shielding (0)
Sanctioned Spellcaster (5)
Ice Gamin (4)
Malifaux Raptor (3)

I selected Leave your Mark and Take Prisoner (Reva), he took Leave your Mark and Convict Labor.

I've had good success with other masters using the Cassandra with Practiced Productions + Malifaux Raptor combo any time Leave Your Mark is in the scheme pool, so I wanted to see how it worked with Sandeep and friends; turns out that it worked out great getting me 3 easy VP off of Leave Your Mark that he was pretty much powerless to contest. I prefer using Cassandra over the cheaper Angelica as Cass is more durable, Understudy can be fantastic, and nimble is rather handy.

As to the rest of the crew, the Oxfordian Mages with their new upgrade end up being fantastic swiss army knives--oh, you're trying to get away from my immobile Banasuva? Windblast you back to where you belong! You're doing too many things I don't like? Slow! You have Armor? No you don't! You really need to die? Burning!

Not going to give a play by play on everything, but a few things I learned I figured I could share. I played Sandeep in between a balls to the wall aggressiveness I played outing #2 and the hold back and support I played outing #1 and it worked out really well. I used his free AP from Student of All early in the turn to summon a Fire Gamin (Banasuva was going to borrow his Magma spit if the enemy stayed out of  range) with Commands in Wind (no attacks, but gives friendlies within  3"  to attacks) and having those  on attacks early for everyone was really handy and it preserved Sandeeps Arcane Shield longer. I was also able to out-activate my opponent, which meant that having Sandeep go late in the turn he was able to summon Big Blue with Commands in Earth in a great spot to tie up a lot of my opponent's crew. He did get Bansuva low on health after Bette Noir popped out of a dead Necropunk, but I took initiative the next turn and had Big Blue activate first and take the Explosive Demise 2 from the Ice Gamin--I figured he was going to die, so get in 3 very effective smacks on my enemies and then make them take 3 damage and a burning when they took him out.

I was able to summon Big Blue again later on, but effective use of the  from the Fire Gamin made it so that the fate of the game wasn't resting on Sandeep summoning. I think that planning on only 2-3 summons a game and using mostly Sandeeps Arcane Storm or Gada will work out more efficiently than making summoning a priority (a mistake I make in game #2 with Sandeep). I should have taken Convict Labor instead of Take Prisoner on Reva--I usually only like to take 1 scheme marker based scheme and I figured that pressuring Reva would make him expend resources to keep her alive to the point that he didn't have the resources to use with the rest of his crew (which did work quite effectively), but apparently Big Blue with  on the attack and the +1 damage buff from the Ice Gamin because he borrowed Frozen Heart makes Reva go down faster than I anticipated when I pummeled her into the ground turn 4 after a Oxfordian mage pushed her back into Bansuva's range after she pulled her Death Shroud teleport thing. Had I taken Convict Labor I would have been able to get at least 2 points, potentially 3 off of it, so worth trying in the future.

I ended up winning 7-0, so not bad at all. I am definitely enjoying taking Sandeep; still need to tweak things a little, but I am starting to get a good feel for what he's good at and what he's not good at.

[Fictor]

Anoter dumb question xD

How we can get the new, for example Bear or Oxfordian upgrades? the box that contains the miniatures will be actualized?

[Omenbringer]

 

Anoter dumb question xD

How we can get the new, for example Bear or Oxfordian upgrades? the box that contains the miniatures will be actualized?

You can get them in the new Generalist Upgrade 2 box. They were available early during the GenCon Sale, not sure when their general release date is though.

[osoi]

In the interest of continuing discussion I am writing a bit of a treatise of the experiences I have had with Sandeep and what I think works well with him. While I write that though I would like to get people's thoughts on the encounter setup below. I have ideas of what I would like to run but I know sometimes I get tunnel vision when looking at crew selection. When making model selections assume that I have the entire Arcanist faction available (which I do minus a just a couple of models) and I do not know what faction I will be up against although there is a slightly heavier Resser/Neverborn bent in our Meta.

Close Deployment

Strategy: Extraction

Schemes: Convict Labor, Show of Force, Leave Your Mark, Public Demonstration, Inspection

 

I am tending to lean towards Sandeep with Commands, Arcane Reservoir and Enlightened Soul. Bring Joss with a couple of upgrades and Arcane Effigy and Metal/Wind Gamin hire. Schemes I favour are Show of Force, Leave your mark and inspection. I also know I could run another master but I really want Sandeep for this. Public demo is out for me as the minions need to be hires otherwise a summoned Banasuva would be great.

 

The tunnel vision that I am suffereing from is that I love the Mech Rider with Sandeep and this seems like a good pool for her but I also want something with 3-4 upgrades in total. I also am having a great time with Oxfordian Mages and yes they should be great resonating with each other and pushing people out of the extraction zone etc but I would like other opinions.