Sandeep discussion

[MuMantai]

Having in mind that I don't know the opponents faction, here are some suggestions:

First of, I have run Sandeep with Arcane Reservoir and Seize the day. The positive flip on initiative often screws with your opponent, even more so when they have the Doppleganger or Trixie with them, as it heavily favors you in initiative (or has the chance of pulling a realy high card from their hand). That said, I have recently figured out Enlightened soul, and while it means that Sandeep cannot teleport, Incorporeal on Howard or Joss or the duett is mean. Another one to think about, especially in this scenario, is Unaligned sage. Having Oxfordian mages not randomize is great, and kills things really dead really fast. Just imagine: some whatnot activates, pulls Sandeep to him, has a tomes as card for that, Sandeep gets an action and casts The Sight beyond. Then all mages can just kill it. Everything that wants to kill Sandeep has to go in his aura, and killing him through Arcane Shield and ItW is not easy.

The second suggestion is the Emissary. With Sandeep, he can have a 1-cost Upgrade, which counts for Show of Force, and may or may not be Imbued Energies (which is my staple when I run him with Sandeep). Also, you could think about Cassandra or Angelica. Cassandra especially can copy both the cast actions from Sandeep and the Emissary, for double cover ignoring fun And, on top of that, Practised production plus a summoned gamin or a hired Raptor or whatnot can easily score you Leave your mark.

I have run three mages with Sandeep, and they are a lot of fun. But they tend to struggle against a lot of fast melee (in close deployment, almost all melee models can be considered fast), as you can't consistently hold them out of engagements, and only one of them wants to be there.

Hope this helps

[spooky_squirrel]

I recently finished using TTB:Female Kit to kit-bash a proxy for Amina. I'm going to practice using her to up the control game available to Sandeep (and Ironsides, but that's another thread). Her being an Academic helps work within the synergy/theme, but how often that will come up remains to be seen.

[Sybarite]

Actually, I dont think Cassandra can copy sandeeps ca actions. Only showgirl masters, right?

[angyi]

11 minutes ago, Sybarite said:

Actually, I dont think Cassandra can copy sandeeps ca actions. Only showgirl masters, right?

He means copying via Beacon.

[Sybarite]

Oh... Right!

[angyi]

Two quick questions, if you care to share your experience:

- Generally how do you summon the first manifestation of Banasuva? Eg. you always try to summon him into melee, or you summon him anyways and try to push him wherever he's needed, maybe you summon him in a completely different way?

- Sandeep is full of scheme-related goodness, but did you try to max out his combat potential? How potent do you think he can be, when he's focusing on reckoning and the likes?

[Jordon]

57 minutes ago, angyi said:

Two quick questions, if you care to share your experience:

- Generally how do you summon the first manifestation of Banasuva? Eg. you always try to summon him into melee, or you summon him anyways and try to push him wherever he's needed, maybe you summon him in a completely different way?

- Sandeep is full of scheme-related goodness, but did you try to max out his combat potential? How potent do you think he can be, when he's focusing on reckoning and the likes?

1) It really depends on his upgrade. If he cannot move then you need to be really careful with his positioning as he can only move via place effect, which basically narrows it down to Sandeep's path to salvation. Unfortunately that requires a suited moderate card, which may or may not be available. If you have him in a decent place but not ideal then you might be able to feed him models with the various push effects from say the oxfordian mages or Sandeep's own push ability. If he can walk, then I'd probably summon him right away as that 12 card may end up in your hand again next turn anyway. 

I find Sandeep's summoning to be highly situational, but in a good way. Typically i'll summon if I need that model to accomplish a very specific task. Otherwise it's probably better to hang on to the card for a time when you will need it. Sandeep is the ultimate opportunist and I treat his summons like any other ability, it just needs to make sense. With access to 4AP, he can do just about anything from beating someone to death, scheme running, or blasting those hard to reach models, so sometimes summoning just isn't a high priority. 

2) Again, it's sort of hard to compare him to other masters. I think he's fine as a beater, but if your going to play him aggressively, then you'll need to do it smartly. I think he can dish it out decently, but can't really take it. For that reason, I think he'll make a better assassin than a strait up beater (which is good because both Mei and Ironsides are better in crowds). He's fantastic at taking out scheme runners and/or support models due to his high mobility. He can chase down even the fastest models and take care of them swiftly. Min Dmg 3 is alright but no real triggers keeps it from being amazing. 

I think the fact that you can play him as a beater is more valuable than his actual damage output. Versatility is key in Malifaux

[Guslado]

22 hours ago, angyi said:

Two quick questions, if you care to share your experience:

- Generally how do you summon the first manifestation of Banasuva? Eg. you always try to summon him into melee, or you summon him anyways and try to push him wherever he's needed, maybe you summon him in a completely different way?

- Sandeep is full of scheme-related goodness, but did you try to max out his combat potential? How potent do you think he can be, when he's focusing on reckoning and the likes?

As to the first question--there is generally a lot of benefit to having Sandeep going late in the turn to keep his Arcane Shield active and summoning in Banasuva late in the turn is also quite beneficial as he tends to be rather easy to kill. With the crews I have been bringing along with Sandeep it's usually pretty easy to out activate most other crews, which means summoning in Banasuva after my opponent is activated out is usually quite doable; if the strategy is one of the more static ones where you are attempting to control an area (Turf War, Extraction, Guard the Stash, Stake a Claim) I tend to summon him with Command in Earth (can't move or push but +1" on  , +3" on ranged) into melee range with an enemy I really want to kill. On less static strats I tend to summon him in with Command in Fire (immune to slow but can't cheat fate) and fling him at a lower Df model after my opponent has used most or all of their control hand. 

As to the second question--Sandeep can kick some serious ass if he is focusing on laying the smack down. Arcane storm is really potent and if you take To Command Another Plane he hits even harder in melee; also, the common wisdom is that if your opponent is kicking your ass from range you should get up in his face doesn't work well in this situation as he is quite potent at range and up close.

[angyi]

Thanks guys! For a side note, by maxing out Sandeep's combat potential, I basically meant the composition of his crew. Besides the Cassandra/Firestarter/Gamin/whatnot VP-engine and besides the Valedictorian/Joss/Metals/etc. grinder, I can't see right now what's the most agressive setup he can run. (Surely not the Acadsmic spam I guess.)

[retnab]

23 hours ago, angyi said:

Two quick questions, if you care to share your experience:

- Generally how do you summon the first manifestation of Banasuva? Eg. you always try to summon him into melee, or you summon him anyways and try to push him wherever he's needed, maybe you summon him in a completely different way?

- Sandeep is full of scheme-related goodness, but did you try to max out his combat potential? How potent do you think he can be, when he's focusing on reckoning and the likes?

1) I try to summon in melee, unless he has the Fire upgrade and is in charge range, or has the Earth upgrade and I have the card I need to let him use Sandeep's (0) teleport.  He usually gets summoned late in the turn and I try to have him on the board most turns of the game punching face.

2) I think he has the capability to be damage oriented but he has just So Much support power I have a tough time really dedicating to offense.  I'll maybe throw out an Arcane Storm or two but that's beside him giving out Incorporeal and probably Summoning some models as well.

Edit: I make his crew pretty darn aggressive.  I haven't tried the Academic route with him at all yet and instead have just been bringing in high value models like Sue (good ranged and card draw) and Howard (hilariously scary when Incorporeal).  My model count is usually pretty low because of this, typically 6-7.  I find I don't really need to hire scheme runners, but then again I play with Visions mostly and his summons do that job just fine there.

[angyi]

Another question, just to keep this most interesting topic alive

Have you ever considered hiring Hans with Sandeep? He does what he does, but in this crew, you can push him around without serious effort, and he provides you with a tool to shoot the restricting upgrade down from Banasuva or an immobile gamin if need be. (Also allowing a fourth summoning if all three limited upgrades are on the field and you don't want to kill any gamin at the moment... but of course that's kind of a corner case.)

[spooky_squirrel]

57 minutes ago, angyi said:

Another question, just to keep this most interesting topic alive

Have you ever considered hiring Hans with Sandeep? He does what he does, but in this crew, you can push him around without serious effort, and he provides you with a tool to shoot the restricting upgrade down from Banasuva or an immobile gamin if need be. (Also allowing a fourth summoning if all three limited upgrades are on the field and you don't want to kill any gamin at the moment... but of course that's kind of a corner case.)

I recently picked up Hans just to hard counter Jack Daw (shooting the curses off of my own crew), turn down Guild heat a little, and give me a potential edge in the Show of Force scheme (especially in a Colette crew). It would be an interesting way to strip a restrictive upgrade after it's no longer needed and/or would be better put to use on a second run (able to interact when summoned, I could use that on the next summon..). Very card dependent, however, since he needs that Crow and the summon on Sandeep needs the Mask.

[Ampers&nd]

I'm considering using a raptor simply to give Banasuva beast, which should allow me to use the new upgrade to swap him and a construct around- as it's a place it ignores the chained in earth restrictions of push and move and it gives greater mobility then just copying Sandeeps place, but am I thinking too hard about getting around the upgrade? should I just get him in, wait for him to die and summon again in a better place? 

[Guslado]

2 hours ago, Ampers&nd said:

I'm considering using a raptor simply to give Banasuva beast, which should allow me to use the new upgrade to swap him and a construct around- as it's a place it ignores the chained in earth restrictions of push and move and it gives greater mobility then just copying Sandeeps place, but am I thinking too hard about getting around the upgrade? should I just get him in, wait for him to die and summon again in a better place? 

That's a fun idea, but probably more trouble than it's worth. Banasuva is going to die, if I can get more than two activations out of Big Blue I consider it win; make them pay for taking him out (taking explosive demise 2 off of an Ice Gamin is a delightfully nasty trick) and then resummon him, much to the chagrin of your enemy.

With the power that Sandeep and friends can bring to the table, there's no real reason to get cute with Hans plinking upgrades off your own gamin. A metal gamin with Commands in Wind and Banasuva running around out there (or sitting around depending on if you went with Earth or Flame) are the summons that are worth focusing on. Focusing on summoning with Sandeep is a trap; I view getting the Metal Gamin with Commands in Wind as a clear priority over getting Big Blue or anything else out there.

[spooky_squirrel]

2 hours ago, Guslado said:

With the power that Sandeep and friends can bring to the table, there's no real reason to get cute with Hans plinking upgrades off your own gamin. A metal gamin with Commands in Wind and Banasuva running around out there (or sitting around depending on if you went with Earth or Flame) are the summons that are worth focusing on. Focusing on summoning with Sandeep is a trap; I view getting the Metal Gamin with Commands in Wind as a clear priority over getting Big Blue or anything else out there.

Yeah, this is why I think it's interesting, just not interesting enough to build for. I'm trying to use Sandeep more for his control than his summons. If I need more gamin on the table, the Mechanical Rider is more than happy to provide. Otherwise, my point-denial-focused mind is going to be looking for the various angles that I can come into the strat and schemes and make my opponent work for their points. Summoning in something that will drop a scheme marker when it arrives is good by itself. Spending extra activations to try and get it a second time in the next turn is not ideal. If it's that important to do, I would hire in Kudra with her zap-a-Gamin and do it that way.

Hans is more likely going to find himself in other crews (like Ironsides) that are going to get stuck in, so that he can plink targets at will and give out Slow or deny Ml attacks to models that are tied up with things that they don't want to be. Sandeep is a completely different direction of play for me.

[Guslado]

11 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Yeah, this is why I think it's interesting, just not interesting enough to build for. I'm trying to use Sandeep more for his control than his summons. If I need more gamin on the table, the Mechanical Rider is more than happy to provide. Otherwise, my point-denial-focused mind is going to be looking for the various angles that I can come into the strat and schemes and make my opponent work for their points. Summoning in something that will drop a scheme marker when it arrives is good by itself. Spending extra activations to try and get it a second time in the next turn is not ideal. If it's that important to do, I would hire in Kudra with her zap-a-Gamin and do it that way.

Hans is more likely going to find himself in other crews (like Ironsides) that are going to get stuck in, so that he can plink targets at will and give out Slow or deny Ml attacks to models that are tied up with things that they don't want to be. Sandeep is a completely different direction of play for me.

I haven't tried Mech Rider with Sandeep yet; I honestly have never really been a big fan of her in general. 12ss for what she brings to the table seems rather steep to me--she can do some solid work, but has a gigantic target on her from the moment you set her on the table.

[spooky_squirrel]

12 minutes ago, Guslado said:

I haven't tried Mech Rider with Sandeep yet; I honestly have never really been a big fan of her in general. 12ss for what she brings to the table seems rather steep to me--she can do some solid work, but has a gigantic target on her from the moment you set her on the table.

I can see that. If you're looking for Gamin and activation control from the top of the game onwards, for the same cost you can put 3 Gamin on the table and just start with them (especially if you're looking to copy abilities for Big Blue). She gets a lot of work done for me, but I tend to try and keep her somewhere where if the opponent goes after her early, they aren't getting strat/scheme points if they're not playing into A Quick Murder or similar scheme.

At the last tournament I was in, the overall winner played Sandeep all three rounds, but I didn't get a chance to see what he was putting on the table (my first round was against the second place Neverborn finisher, which put me on all the wrong tables to see what was happening). From my understanding he was playing the control/utility angle (with the ability to summon as a cherry on top) and presenting more troubles than a more summoning-focused Sandeep could.

My own inclination is to go the Academic route, which doesn't leave much room for something like the Mech Rider. I still need to pick up a Librarian (or kit-bash one out of the Male or Female TTB kits I have), but I'm eyeballing the Sanctioned Spellcasters with their control collar and Singularity as a counter-control element. This would be further helped by the hiring pool that's available to Arcanists and tailored to work around strat/scheme pools and opposing faction (Sandeep with nothing but casters into Sonnia would not go well, for instance). Going along this route I'd be looking at dropping a couple of Henchmen in with Warding Runes on both of them so that they can get work done while making the most of their abilities. From the Wave 4 Henchmen: running Kudra screams to me "bring a Performer!!"; Amina would dial up the control aspect, especially if she starts disabling my opponent's ability to interact.

[MunkyMuddFace]

I had some good fun last week summoning Banasuva twice in Turn 1 to attack an over extended Misaki.

Mid-Turn, used Sandeep to summon an Ice gamin with the Commands in Wind for the Attack bonus. Summoned Banasuva with Commands in Flame.
Banasuva borrowed the Explosive Demise from the Ice Gamin, then charged Misaki with positive on the attacks (needed since he couldn't cheat).
A Dawn Serpent came in and killed Banasuva, to get it out of the way of Misaki in prep for turn 2.
Arcane Effigy activated and used Beaconed Sandeep's Arcane Storm with the built in Tome. Sandeep pitched a card for Student of All, and used the AP to Summon Banasuva again. 
Banasuva charged Misaki, landing a hit for RJ and death to Misaki (she had some other damage from the previous charge and aura damage).
After that, Banasuva was largely ignored because he was pretty pillow fisted once the Ice Gamin died. 

I have mostly played Sandeep as a summoner, I haven't really gotten into the thick of things to see what else he can do.

 

[Guslado]

43 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

I can see that. If you're looking for Gamin and activation control from the top of the game onwards, for the same cost you can put 3 Gamin on the table and just start with them (especially if you're looking to copy abilities for Big Blue). She gets a lot of work done for me, but I tend to try and keep her somewhere where if the opponent goes after her early, they aren't getting strat/scheme points if they're not playing into A Quick Murder or similar scheme.

At the last tournament I was in, the overall winner played Sandeep all three rounds, but I didn't get a chance to see what he was putting on the table (my first round was against the second place Neverborn finisher, which put me on all the wrong tables to see what was happening). From my understanding he was playing the control/utility angle (with the ability to summon as a cherry on top) and presenting more troubles than a more summoning-focused Sandeep could.

My own inclination is to go the Academic route, which doesn't leave much room for something like the Mech Rider. I still need to pick up a Librarian (or kit-bash one out of the Male or Female TTB kits I have), but I'm eyeballing the Sanctioned Spellcasters with their control collar and Singularity as a counter-control element. This would be further helped by the hiring pool that's available to Arcanists and tailored to work around strat/scheme pools and opposing faction (Sandeep with nothing but casters into Sonnia would not go well, for instance). Going along this route I'd be looking at dropping a couple of Henchmen in with Warding Runes on both of them so that they can get work done while making the most of their abilities. From the Wave 4 Henchmen: running Kudra screams to me "bring a Performer!!"; Amina would dial up the control aspect, especially if she starts disabling my opponent's ability to interact.

Which tournament was that at? If it was the one in Dragon's Lair in Austin, that was me 

I am a big fan of the Academic route--3 Oxfordian Mages with their new bonus 0 upgrade is delightful. I've found the Sanctioned Spellcasters to be handy and the Valedictorian is a beast. I haven't had a chance to put a Librarian on the table yet, but I've made a few lists with Librarians that have some potential. One big benefit of taking Unaligned Sage even if you don't plan on hiring out of faction Academics is that Academics no longer need LOS to him to use Beacon.

I also find that bringing along a crew of 8 to 9 models is really handy--it allows me to let the Mages and Sandeep to keep their Arcane shields up longer before they activate. Add in a couple of summons and you are solidly out-activating most crews.

[spooky_squirrel]

It was up here in Washington, Seattle area. One of the Seattle players has been rampaging around with Sandeep.