Learning to use Reva

[Omenbringer]

10 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Has anyone playing Reva faced someone using a primarily construct or spirit list yet? I'm curious how Reva would fair without the corpses generated from killing living or undead enemies.

Reva, and her crew, doesn't have a problem creating her own Corpse Markers, so an all construct or Spirit list doesn't really impact her as much as it would the other Ressesr Masters.

11 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

I don't think Reva is going to generate NPEs once people figure out how to push her around. Her resilience is very minimal compared to most resser masters--she can't punt damage, has no real damage mitigation, and her healing mechanics are sub-par compared to most resser masters. Additionally, Reva's summoning is terrible compared to most resser masters. Reva literally summons ONE model without upgrades. This means when Reva hits the table, the opponent more or less knows what's coming model wise. 

I think people aren't sure how to deny Reva her reach with masters that don't have built in anti-corpse marker tech like Lady J or basically every Resser master. At worst, you could stand over the markers with the chaffe you planned to sacrifice to her anyway. Ideally, you play ressers and utilize the markers for your own benefits and laugh.

Have you played against her? She is not the frail model that people make out, she is plenty survivable. Her healing is fine and she has Damage Prevention while being able to deny other models theirs. She also doesn't need to be near the front top be completely effective. Her summoning isn't terrible just focused, that isn't an exploitable weakness as it is a very small portion of her design. Also consider that she has the easiest time summoning (a simple card discard to automatically summon a Corpse Candle at the start of her activation, there is no material component like the other Resser Masters, she doesn't have to expend an action to do it, nor does she have to flip for it) of all the Resser Masters.

While anti-corpse Marker tech shows some merit, it is far from a "common thing" across any faction, and entirely un-represented in many. Even the Ressers are going to be hard pressed to exploit this since they require Corpse Markers usually more than she does, and they also usually have to work a lot harder to utilize them than she does. Also keep in mind that both Corpse Candles and Mindless Zombies are only considered as "Corpse Markers" for friendly models other than that they are just another model that needs to be killed. She really does have a lot going for her and is going to be a very potent option.

11 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

There's also a Resser, Leve, and Marcus specific counter: Night Falls. 1 Night Terror creates a 17.1811" diameter circle that reads Reva has 1" melee from her target corpse marker. Put two of those suckers in, like anyone should for Interference when able, and you've got half the board back as long as you're not within 1" of a corpse marker. 

Reva is a powerful sniper when she's shooting, no doubt about it, but she has some pretty large pitfalls considering she can be more easily pressured than your average resser master and her summoning serves primarily to set her up for shooting or making a temporary escape. If Reva matches are generating issues, look to see what models supporting her are drawing your attention--remove or mitigate them and Reva isn't really going to be tearing you to pieces. 

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I think she's a beater complementing a more elite crew in getting VP. She probably won't score you most of your own VP.

So the answer to Reva is a Model that only the Ressurectionists and a handful of other Masters that can hire either beasts or spirits out of faction have access to?

Also Reva would need to be within the range of the Aura of Night Falls, if she is out of it the range of her Ca actions is not going to be reduced. She can easily move out of the aura and attack at her full range.

Killing the rest of her crew is also a lot more difficult than you make out, the Shield Bearers are very potent.

8 hours ago, solkan said:

Is this the part where someone needs to point out that the FAQ entry in question is specifically about Scheme Markers, so everyone is pretty much guilty of extrapolating the answer beyond its specified scope?    I don't want to claim to be the Kettle or the Pot, I'd rather claim to be a vegetable steamer because that'd be more useful to me right now.

Note the number of times that the question and answer are specific to Scheme Markers. 

Personally, when I go extrapolating out of the FAQ to make it cover more useful things, I prefer to make extrapolations that don't involve inventing new clauses and situations to the line of sight mechanics.

 

Scheme, Corpse, and Scrap Markers are all just types of "General" Markers and all have the exact same general characteristics in regards to Ht, terrain, and such. While they do each have their own specialized rules those portions discuss when they are placed, how they are used, or removed. They do not alter the "General" rules applicable to all markers.

While I agree that the FAQ entry is extremely poorly written (Many of them are), if it blocks LOS to a Scheme Marker it would be applicable to the other markers of that same size. Also those who are citing forum threads, keep in mind none of those are considered official rulings. Wyrd has emphasized that a number of times.

39 minutes ago, Endalaus said:

I actually played a game last night against Sandeep, and ended with a 10-5 victory for Reva.

I ran:

Reva - 4ss Cache (Maniacal Laugh, Litany of the fallen, Guises of Death)

Anna Lovelace - Corpse Bloat

Vincent St. Clair

Bete Noire - Decaying Aura

Shieldbearer

Shieldbearer

Necropunk

This is very similar to the list that I faced, though the Carrion Emissary replaces Bete and our player didn't attach Maniacal Laugh.

[Endalaus]

4 minutes ago, D_acolyte said:

I am still not sure about Maniacal Laugh as it puts her closer then I think she needs to be. Can you please give your thoughts on being close to the enemy or did you just put 4 corpses around her to make zombies. If so that seems like a big investment.

Many of the corpse counters that were used were towards the center of the table. Maybe favored more towards the enemy deployment side of the middle. She walked up and cast Muahahaha. With an 8 inch pulse it has a pretty decent range. It was unable to hit a 5th marker as it was behind a forest, but I didn't have to over extend her to make use of Maniacal Laugh.. There really wasn't a lot of setup other than oh there's a cluster of corpses and I'm not in any danger of getting to them or facing any danger once there. Let's try it. She did get attacked the following turn by an Oxfordian mage and he red jokered damage, but that was it. She prevented 1 by SS. The following turn she was able to use her heal trigger to heal back up a bit so she was in no way in any real harm. The opponent also didn't have a whole lot left on the table at this point. Or at least heavy hitter wise.

TL;DR: I played it safe and when an opportunity presented itself I used it. I got 4 Mindless zombies out of it. Not sure if that was worth 2ss but it felt good.

[benjoewoo]

My previous post wasn't to attack Reva's ability to be effective with good hires and play, but address the concern she will generate consistent NPEs--I don't think she will. 

I didn't say Reva has no survivability, but compared to many other masters in faction, her survivability is just not as good--e.g. Seamus unlimited heal or Kirai damage punt. If Reva sits at the edge of the board, she can realistically control half the board still while relatively safe--I think that's her main survivability mechanic. But that's not healing or mechanical prevention.

She is a potent master, but she has weaknesses. My example with night terrors is an easy to reach one for certain masters. Any counter hire model is going to be mostly a delay tactic, however, so if we're talking just staying out of her way, then you have to be more than 9.1811" away from a corpse candle/mindless zombie assuming she has blood mark or 3" from a corpse marker if she doesn't. It's Reva's built in movement manipulation, which is great considering that's a core of what ressers bring to the table. Reva summons 1 model by default, so hiring manipulation is taxing for her. 

I have played against Reva and played her. Her core mechanic is a strong one against crews that don't have an easy answer, but I don't think that alone will generate consistent NPEs. Throwing chaffe to engage her eats AP to deal with that model, (0) away, or run the upgrade that ignores engagement. She also doesn't have a particularly flexible ability to accomplish interact or marker centered schemes and strategies. Not to say she can't, but her kit and crew preference lead me to think she'd prefer the killy schemes and strats over marker based ones, because Reva can kill well and her preferred keyword models are better at killing than scheme running. I'm ignoring position only based schemes and strategies because there aren't very many, e.g. undercover entourage.

Shieldbearers aren't bad, and they can initially be very resilient with Df/WP 6 simultaneously. Their potency, imo, seems more that they can force enemy models to deal with them rather than killing everyone. Plus, having to kill them twice to actually get a kill adds value--Hanged can't even stop the healing. But, if I need killers on the board because it's Headhunter or Collect the Bounty, one of which shows up in Rounds 1-3 of every rotation for GG 2016, shield bearers are probably more set up than VP getters. Reva can do the killing, but Shieldbearers contribute to the set up for her or someone else rather than do it themselves. 

I may very possibly be basing my thoughts on inexperienced play, both when I played Reva and against her, but I didn't feel like I did not or could not enjoy the experience. Not a thought to say she's underpowered for not steam rolling me, but a thought that she's not unbalanced, so I get to enjoy games with or against her. 

[Kogan Style]

On 8/23/2016 at 3:22 AM, Omenbringer said:

Not really debatable the FAQ entry is pretty clear and would trump the Rule Book. Also Markers (Corpse, Scrap, and Schemes) are not models, they have their own set of Rules (page 56 of the mini rule book). Page 41 of the mini Rule book in regards to Line of Sight also states that models would block LOS since all lines draw from the targeting model would cross the base.

The Line of Sight rules continue on after that statement about no LoS to talk about Elevation rules, specifically:

"The Ht of the acting model, target, and intervening objects can effect whether or not the acting model has LoS. If the blocking object (terrain or model) between the Attacker and target has Ht lower than the Attacker or target's Ht, then the blocking object is ignored for LoS quality (but not cover)..."

The Marker rules say nothing about not being a target so they are not excluded from this rule.

 

16 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Scheme, Corpse, and Scrap Markers are all just types of "General" Markers and all have the exact same general characteristics in regards to Ht, terrain, and such. While they do each have their own specialized rules those portions discuss when they are placed, how they are used, or removed. They do not alter the "General" rules applicable to all markers.

While I agree that the FAQ entry is extremely poorly written (Many of them are), if it blocks LOS to a Scheme Marker it would be applicable to the other markers of that same size. Also those who are citing forum threads, keep in mind none of those are considered official rulings. Wyrd has emphasized that a number of times.

If you want to state that FAQ trumps the Rulebook then I'll refer to the first 2 lines of the FAQ

"The purpose of this Frequently Asked Questions document is to address questions on individual situations which players may find confusing. These are not changes to the rules, simply clarifications for the convenience of Malifaux players. Each question is about an individual situation, and may not necessarily apply to other situations..."

So going by that we seem to get the following conversation at the table

Player 1 - Elevation rules means Reva can see the corpse marker the Gremlin is stood on, despite not otherwise being able to draw LoS to the marker

Player 2 - No, Q.49 of the FAQ states that no LoS may be drawn to a marker when a 30mm base is completely covering it

Player 1 - That question refers to scheme markers, and does not apply.

Player 2 - yes it might apply

Player 1 - Nope

Player 2 - Yep

If Wyrd intended for marker LoS to be outside of the normal LoS rules they should issue an Errata to that effect, because this would be a new branch of LoS rules that otherwise did not exist until Q.49 of the FAQ made it so. 

 

[Kadeton]

On the LoS to Markers topic, one word that has seemingly not been examined in the rule is "between". Because the rule assumes that we're talking about models, and models can't be on top of each other, any blocking object has to be "between" the acting model and its target. The issue here arises because Markers do not share that restriction.

Not official (obviously) but I would rule that a model standing exactly on top of a Marker is not "between" the acting model and the target, and therefore blocks LoS to the Marker regardless of the attacker's Ht. I believe this is also the intent of the FAQ ruling.

[Bengt]

If a model with a 40 or 50 mm base is standing on a marker it can only call upon the rulebook to block LoS. And would subsequently be ignored by models of greater Ht. If it was ruled that it couldn't be ignored we are really talking about making rules up, or perhaps more accurately that the developer has rule set in their mind that they haven't managed to fully communicate in the text.

I also think it would be patently absurd to let a model on a 30 mm base be better at blocking LoS than if it had a larger base, but that is of course just an opinion.  

[Kadeton]

8 minutes ago, Bengt said:

or perhaps more accurately that the developer has rule set in their mind that they haven't managed to fully communicate in the text.

Yes, I'd suggest that's exactly what's happened in this case. I'm not sure who's doing the FAQs after Justin's departure, but perhaps they'll take another crack at it in future.

Unofficially, I'd suggest that the FAQ makes an implicit assumption that models with base sizes larger than 30mm will (self-evidently) block all LoS to a Marker that is completely underneath their base, and is clarifying that 30mm models are able to do the same if perfectly positioned. That may count as "making rules up", but I'd say it's the way to play it that least breaks the game, which is usually a pretty reliable indicator of intent.

[jonahmaul]

As a Resser player I will play it that anybody standing on corpse markers blocks LoS because personally I think it's ridiculous rules lawyering to claim otherwise.  I do hope (not with a lot of optimism it must be said) that it is clarified sooner rather than later though because it's going to be a key issue with Reva.

[Omenbringer]

10 hours ago, Kogan Style said:

The Line of Sight rules continue on after that statement about no LoS to talk about Elevation rules, specifically:

"The Ht of the acting model, target, and intervening objects can effect whether or not the acting model has LoS. If the blocking object (terrain or model) between the Attacker and target has Ht lower than the Attacker or target's Ht, then the blocking object is ignored for LoS quality (but not cover)..."

The Marker rules say nothing about not being a target so they are not excluded from this rule.

If Wyrd intended for marker LoS to be outside of the normal LoS rules they should issue an Errata to that effect, because this would be a new branch of LoS rules that otherwise did not exist until Q.49 of the FAQ made it so. 

 

First Markers do not have a Ht stat and second Markers are there own thing. As for the Elevation rules well good luck with those, they are an absolute mess and largely unusable, elevation was not a huge priority this edition.

As for an official errata from Wyrd, they did address it via the FAQ, though I will concede poorly. It should have been referenced using the general "Markers" instead of a specific type which would leave the door open for Rules lawyering (i.e. a Scheme Marker ruling does not apply to a Corpse Marker despite them possessing the exact same general characteristics).

As is inevitable in these discussions however it seems we have reached the culminating point where neither side is going to change their opinion until Wyrd addresses it definitively via FAQ clarification or re-entry. The only thing that comes out of further discussion is the likelihood of a temporary ban increasing. Hoping this makes the next FAQ update.

[Paddywhack]

8 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Yes, I'd suggest that's exactly what's happened in this case. I'm not sure who's doing the FAQs after Justin's departure, but perhaps they'll take another crack at it in future.

Unofficially, I'd suggest that the FAQ makes an implicit assumption that models with base sizes larger than 30mm will (self-evidently) block all LoS to a Marker that is completely underneath their base, and is clarifying that 30mm models are able to do the same if perfectly positioned. That may count as "making rules up", but I'd say it's the way to play it that least breaks the game, which is usually a pretty reliable indicator of intent.

This is my belief too. No one questioned that a 40+MM base could block LOS. The FAQ was asked to verify that a 30MM could do the same. That a larger model could do so was not a question for anyone. I personally believe the FAQ is pretty clear as it succinctly states that you can block LOS by standing on a marker, period. They don't bring height or anything else into it because they don't need to. Obviously some others disagree though. And this from a Resurr player, so it will impact me negatively.

[Fetid Strumpet]

While I agree the intent is arguably pretty clear, I would still point out, as has been said above, according to the way the rules are written, the FAQ, and the FAQ callout, if a model of a lower height than Reva is standing on a corpse marker, regardless of the size of their base, they don't block LoS, because the rules specifically say they don't, and the FAQ specifically says examples within are unique to themselves and cannot be used to interpret other rules in a similar manner.

I'm not saying I agree with it.

I'm not saying the intent isn't that all markers function the same way the scheme markers do in the FAQ, as I believe it is.

I'm not saying I would rule that way at my events.

I'm saying, per the rules, as they are written, if your model is a lower height than Reva, officially, you can't block LoS to markers. Period.

I think it is almost certain this will be clarified next month, and if it isn't it would probably be a good idea for anyone playing Reva in an event to clarify with the TO how they will personally be interpreting the rule for their events in advance.

[TheTrans]

So Played my first game with Reva last night.

Was against a Schemey-ish Shenlong crew. 

Got an 8-8 draw, that balanced on a 1-2 card flips that could of went to a 9-7 win Reva's way, so was bloody happy with that for my first attempt at Reva (and Ressers for that matter!)

So I ran:
Reva: Regen +1 Upgrade, Blood Mark

Beff Cake Vince

Izamu: Damage when you hit him

Shield Bearer
Shield Bearer

Crooligan
Nurse
Friekorps Trapper.

So a few things I came to the conclusion about is that Shield Bearers lift well above their weight. They seem so bloody frail, but the Armour, DF6, 8 wounds with H2K in the middle and the fact you can equip them for what you need before they die (Damage to killer, stone for a card or finish the job) they are bloody great.

Beef Cake is good once you have some corpse markers around, and his built in mask for Squeel is stupid useful on a henchman!

Now Reva is bloody great I must say, and while people look at her as a pretty much 'ranged beater' she has enough shenaniganry available for fun. I used her teleport multiple times last night, one of the more fun times was, she had been exhausted by a Shadow Effigy, so she in turn then exhausted the Effigy (2AP), then used her (0) to teleport over to another corpse marker then use 1 AP to remove exhausted off of herself. Not to mention she happily took off 2 10T Brothers that were DF7 +ve flips, by dumping the crooligan inbetween them and smashing them at will power. I can see why she is only CA6, due to being able to easily pick her fights is amazing. That and Strength of the Fallen's range is crazy long, you don't actually realise it until it happens!

Corpse candles, for the cost of a card are bloody amazing, I really like the card cycle then chain activate, amazing...that and always dumping corpse markers is fantastic.

If I had my time again, I'd drop the trapper for Yin, and maybe go something other than a Nurse. That and I'd give Reva Maniacal Laugh, as there was a good 8 odd corpse markers floating about by turn 3... would be good to chew some activations and box people in. 

Over all I had a bloody blast!! 

Quick question though, do ressers have any non-master specific healing that isn't a nurse?

 

Cheers,

Nick

[TheTrans]

Yeah Chiaki looks like a fantstic alternative to a Nurse...got decent wounds as well as being a good scheme runner if needed. Wining!!

Vincent took a Dawn Serpent down to HTK, Took a katanaka sniper down to HTK, ended up dying in the end, but the amount of AP going into him to try and kill him was great. His pushes on defensvie flips are fantastic. He is very tool boxy... Amazing for 8ss

[TheJoyInGaming]

I've really liked using Chiaki with Reva. I've played a few games with them and if you are running a Beyond Death Reva then she really appreciates Chiaki with Pull of the Grave to help mitigate damage. I'm going to try and play a game this weekend with Reva with Beyond Death, Maniacal Laugh, and Decaying Aura and Chiaki running support with POTG and report back in more detail later. Thus far the Corpse Candles have really helped with protecting Chiaki and Reva with Disguised but i plan to try and use them to target an enemy model to get + to attack flips so Chiaki can get her 0 off more often and rack up more Chi.

This is assuming of course my wife doesn't choose to take Sonnia...

[TheTrans]

I really feel that + to attack is next to useless unless the opponent is out of cards or has one they really don't want to drop...

[TheJoyInGaming]

I agree. I'm trying to try all of the Candle's tools and normally i act as though that one isn't even printed to be honest. So far i normally just recycle a card and chain activate. 

[TheTrans]

Yeah card cycle and activate is amazing. Espcially if you've opted to push it (0) it, then bounce to a beater waiting in the wings...

[TheJoyInGaming]

 

Yeah card cycle and activate is amazing. Espcially if you've opted to push it (0) it, then bounce to a beater waiting in the wings...

Ah Blood Mark... How i love thee...

[Kogan Style]

 

I think it is almost certain this will be clarified next month, and if it isn't it would probably be a good idea for anyone playing Reva in an event to clarify with the TO how they will personally be interpreting the rule for their events in advance.

I will be honest and say this is the main reason I keep bringing this up, so that it might be deemed worthy of an FAQ clarification (either way) because this situation has happened quite a few times (notably when I play Nico vs Gremlins, Toshiro vs Arcanist [wanting scrap markers] and Reva vs anyone) and I'd just like to play it one way for all games - whether the marker (any marker) is visible to models (of any base size) when it is completely covered by a model (of any base size) and whether the Elevation rules play a part in the interaction to determine LoS.

apologies to @Omenbringer if it felt like hostile posting towards you. 

Back to the Reva discussions!

[TheJoyInGaming]

Anybody have any interesting ideas for Mercenaries that could work well with Reva?

[TheTrans]

Well just saying Hannah..because god damn do I want a larger hand size!! But that is 11 stones...

I will now go have a look at any of the crossroads cronies and see what they bring to the table...

[Omenbringer]

Killjoy is worth a look. Start him Buried and have Reva attach her Guises of Death upgrade. Expensive but you can virtually guaranty a first turn engagement for the big brute.

Bete Noir is probably a better option though since she is cheaper and more survivable.

[TheTrans]

Nothing really worth the 9 Stones (outside of sloth) that the 7 are going to cost you that I can see...

[clockworkspide]

I can see grabbing a trapper to ping some early damage off, or maybe even kill a weaker model for a corpse downfield.

[TheTrans]

 

I can see grabbing a trapper to ping some early damage off, or maybe even kill a weaker model for a corpse downfield.

Tried a trapper the other night. I love trappers in Outcasts, and they are good at 7ss...but that is 1ss off of Yin or Datsue Ba which work well with Reva. That and if you think about it, turn 1 if you want. You can summon a Corpse Candle 8" away from reva, push it 5" (make it explode or what ever if you want) if you do kill it, add another 1" plus reva's 3" range, thats (by my count) 17" top of turn 1, with 2 AP (and a 0) attack on reva available..