Learning to use Reva

[Astelan86]

Is there a trick for Reva to protect her Corpse Candels, Corps Markers or Mindles Zombies from Lady Justice discard all corpse markers pulse?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'd have to look at the wording, but I don't think Lady J's pulse can remove Mindless Zombies or Corpse Candles. They don't count as Corpse markers for everyone on the table, only for friendly models. So Asami can't get extra flicker from enemy Zombies, nor can enemy Ressers summon off your zombies. As far as Protecting actual Corpse Markers.... No. Kill Lady J, that's about it.

[TheJoyInGaming]

I want to try some shieldbearers with the forgotten marshal like Omenbringer suggested, just because i like the model. i also really want to maximize the shieldbearers' value and i think to do that you would need at least two and try to abuse vigor. The only way i can think of to do that is to use Toshiro and stone for war fan pushes but i think that, while fun, is alot of resources committed to making two or three minions fast and have +s to their melee attack.

What is everyone else's experience with them? How can we maximize their value? 

[Myyrä]

8 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I'd have to look at the wording, but I don't think Lady J's pulse can remove Mindless Zombies or Corpse Candles. They don't count as Corpse markers for everyone on the table, only for friendly models. So Asami can't get extra flicker from enemy Zombies, nor can enemy Ressers summon off your zombies. As far as Protecting actual Corpse Markers.... No. Kill Lady J, that's about it.

The closest you can get to protecting Corpse Markers is taking Maniacal Laugh and turning them to Mindless Zombies. Not awfully effective against Lady Justice perhaps, but definitely useful against other Ressers who would like to use them for their summons.

[#Maxi]

I was wondering about the corpse candle - Bete Noire trick suggested by TheJoyInGaming: it's actually possible to make Bete Noire, popping out from a candle killed by her 0 action, the target of that 0 action (so having Bate chain activating after the candle?).

In other words, candle's 0 action kills the candle and makes you choose between three effects: killing the candle I can pop up Bete but can I also target her with the chainactivaction effect of the 0 action just done by the candle?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Joy, I think, though I'm not certain, the Shield Bearers are going to be operating close to Reva at the beginning of the game. While she doesn't have to SS for suits she certainly can, and if you are using Bloodmark and are hoping to get the trigger on it you likely are. So I'm not sure if you need another SS users specifically hired to use SS near them. By mid to late game they should hopefully be near Vincent, if you've taken him, or possibly Archie, if you are going that route, and Archie is almost certainly going to be Stoning for his stapled on action if you are cycling his upgrades to throw as new corpses for Reva to exploit. I don't believe that stoning for cards counts as the master doing it, so I don't think that's on the table.

I'm also uncertain how that combo was supposed to work, I assumed he was referring to Bete already being in play. The fast Shenanigans don't work though. An enemy model has to kill one of your models for Bete to get fast.

[Adran]

No because you have to declare targets before you carry out the action. (Page 35 of the little book) so bete isn't on the field when you have to declare a target, so can't be seen to be a target

[TheJoyInGaming]

Yes the combination with Bete would only work if she is already deployed. I'm thinking that after some testing Toshiro is a rather large investment to just trigger vigor. I think Fetid is correct about utilizing Blood Mark with the Shieldbearers as a better option. 

We've spoken some about how to use Guises of Death Reva. Does anyone have any ideas on specific crew choices for Beyond Death? I think that the Corpse Candle's 0 to give the disguised condition might see more use if Reva is in the thick of battle more.

I'm also wondering if Reva utilizing Yin for the WP penalties to enemies could work out well.

Edited August 22, 2016 by TheJoyInGaming
Clarity

[valhallan42nd]

This is what I've run with Reva:

50 SS Resurrectionists Crew
Reva + 6 Pool
- Beyond Death (1)
- Litanty of The Fallen (2)
- Blood Mark (1)
Vincent St. Clair (8)
- Deal With Death (1)
Carrion Emissary (10)
- Carrion Conflux (0)
Johan (7)
Nurse (5)
Nurse (5)
Crooligan (4)
Crooligan (4)

It doesn't have much movement shenanigans, but with the Carrion Em, it allowed me to block off key portions of the field at the right time. The Nurses offered me control, healing, and movment (yay trigger!)

With the Carrion Conflux adding to the nurses, and the +1 walk they get from it, it's a great boost to these already amazing models. And when Johan can move with a Walk 7 in turn one, it's not hard to get him in position.  And with Reva and St. Clair having ways to remove damage reduction, the flips/+2 armor result is quite nice.

[TheJoyInGaming]

Here is a possible Beyond Death/Maniacal Laugh list:

Reva- Maniacal Laugh (1), Beyond Death (1)

Vincent (8)- Deal with Death (1)

Carrion Emissary (10)

Forgotten Marshall (7)

Shieldbearer (6)

Shieldbearer (6)

The shieldbearers can provide additional corpses from themselves or dismember triggers. Forgotten Marshal can teleport as needed via Omen's suggestion earlier to help take out key models. Vincent and Reva can do some nice killing via an increase to damage for Vincent and more outlets for attack for Reva. Lastly, the emissary and Reva can provide activation control from their mindless zombies.

 

[Omenbringer]

On 8/21/2016 at 1:51 PM, TheJoyInGaming said:

I forgot about being able to stand atop corpse to deny LOS to them... That is a very good point. I think that alone may warrant my reconsideration of Maniacal Laugh. You've also addressed another problem i was trying to figure out: the Forgotten Marshall. I've been wanting to use him but couldn't think of a good delivery system to take advantage of his absurd mobility. With Maniacal Laugh it would add that many more targets to deploy him. Thanks for that!

You are also right in that i unfairly discounted or forgot that though she has no defensive "tricks", she does have copious amounts of healing via triggers on attacks and regeneration on her upgrade. 

It appears i'll have to reconsider how i've been using Reva so far. I think i can get MUCH more out of her... though now i need to buy a box or two of Mindless Zombies...

Reva is a very potent Master with an absolutely great Crew. My least enjoyable game of Malifaux in 7 years occurred just a few days ago against Reva (even the first edition game I played my Gremlin's against pre-cuddle Hamelin wasn't nearly as unenjoyable). It wasn't that I lost, it was that I felt like there was absolutely nothing I could do against it. Another player in my community felt the exact same way when he played against her the week before. There is almost nothing in the game that has her threat range. I really hope our experiences are unique...

On 8/21/2016 at 2:02 PM, Bengt said:

Since Reva is Ht 3 she ignores Ht 1 and 2 models when drawing LoS, so relatively few models can block LoS by standing on corpse markers.

You might want to take a look at the FAQ document, it specifically addresses this. In short a model can block LOS to a Corpse Marker by Standing on it.

[TheJoyInGaming]

I hope those were unique experiences as well. Reva and her crew were the reason i switched from Pandora and it would be a shame if your experiences were the norm. Any competitive game thrives on the enjoyment and interaction had between its players so hopefully others will begin to find reasonable counters to her.

That in mind are there ways to mitigate her threat range? Best case scenario for Reva she can hit a model 21" away without using any AP to move and she can hit them from absurd angles behind cover depending on corpse marker, mindless zombie, or corpse candle placement. Off the top of my head i can think of smoke bombs from the Ten Thunders and Sonnia's flame wall as potential screens to block Strength of the Fallen. Freikorps Specialist can help mitigate some of Reva's attack nodes as well. 

Regarding Reva herself, while she does have numerous chances to heal via Regeneration and her trigger that does still require her to activate in order recoup any wounds (ignoring any healing from outside sources such as Nurses, Chiaki, etc.) A sustained assault or alpha strike would be an opponent's best bet at removing her though she can still mitigate this through soulstones...

[Dogmantra]

47 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

You might want to take a look at the FAQ document, it specifically addresses this. In short a model can block LOS to a Corpse Marker by Standing on it.

This is debateable. That FAQ answer addresses whether a 30mm model can block LoS to a 30mm marker by standing exactly on top of it. The answer in that case is yes, but there is no FAQ answer about LOS with specific regards to Ht when two objects are on top of each other. Since the rules state you ignore objects of a lower Ht while drawing LoS, it follows (no matter how counterintuitively) that you ignore models of lower Ht than you when drawing LoS to markers that they are on top of.

[Omenbringer]

Not really debatable the FAQ entry is pretty clear and would trump the Rule Book. Also Markers (Corpse, Scrap, and Schemes) are not models, they have their own set of Rules (page 56 of the mini rule book). Page 41 of the mini Rule book in regards to Line of Sight also states that models would block LOS since all lines draw from the targeting model would cross the base.

[solkan]

I have to agree with Dogmantra.  The FAQ entry isn't creating a new subclause of the blocking rules, it's just explaining "If you're standing completely over another object, then you're going to be intervening in every direction if someone tries to draw line of sight to it."  Especially since there exists a rules forum and the discussion threads which precipitated that FAQ entry.

Or did you want to claim that it works differently if a 40mm or 50mm model is standing on top of a 30mm scheme marker?

[Omenbringer]

Here is the actual FAQ entry:

Quote

48) Q: If a model on a 30mm base is positioned perfectly on top of a 30mm Scheme Marker such that the Marker is completely covered, can other models draw LoS to the Scheme Marker?
A: No. Note that in the case multiple Scheme Markers are stacked on top of each other (with nothing else on top of/blocking them) models may draw LoS to all Markers in the stack because Scheme Markers are not blocking.

It says nothing about Ht even being in the equation.

[benjoewoo]

Reva's range in a perfectly straight line is less than Rasputina's max range in a straight line. Raspy has to corner the angle earlier, but the reach is much further after the corner. Reva's corner is more flexible, but it's reach after the corner is minimal in comparison.

Reva has more movement options, but Raspy's cast is far and away stronger in a vacuum. Reva is more vulnerable to long range than Raspy.

I don't think Reva is going to generate NPEs once people figure out how to push her around. Her resilience is very minimal compared to most resser masters--she can't punt damage, has no real damage mitigation, and her healing mechanics are sub-par compared to most resser masters. Additionally, Reva's summoning is terrible compared to most resser masters. Reva literally summons ONE model without upgrades. This means when Reva hits the table, the opponent more or less knows what's coming model wise. 

I think people aren't sure how to deny Reva her reach with masters that don't have built in anti-corpse marker tech like Lady J or basically every Resser master. At worst, you could stand over the markers with the chaffe you planned to sacrifice to her anyway. Ideally, you play ressers and utilize the markers for your own benefits and laugh.

As for mindless zombies and corpse candles, it's hard to deal with them if you have no direct benefit from just killing stuff, but there's always Hunting Party. Blasts also ruin corpse candles and mindless zombies--if Reva can't bring them out and move them away quickly, you could just shoot the mindless zombie to generate the blast and get mostly unavoidable damage on more important models.

There's also a Resser, Leve, and Marcus specific counter: Night Falls. 1 Night Terror creates a 17.1811" diameter circle that reads Reva has 1" melee from her target corpse marker. Put two of those suckers in, like anyone should for Interference when able, and you've got half the board back as long as you're not within 1" of a corpse marker. 

Reva is a powerful sniper when she's shooting, no doubt about it, but she has some pretty large pitfalls considering she can be more easily pressured than your average resser master and her summoning serves primarily to set her up for shooting or making a temporary escape. If Reva matches are generating issues, look to see what models supporting her are drawing your attention--remove or mitigate them and Reva isn't really going to be tearing you to pieces. 

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I think she's a beater complementing a more elite crew in getting VP. She probably won't score you most of your own VP.

[TheJoyInGaming]

Has anyone playing Reva faced someone using a primarily construct or spirit list yet? I'm curious how Reva would fair without the corpses generated from killing living or undead enemies.

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Here is the actual FAQ entry:

It says nothing about Ht even being in the equation.

That is exactly the point. It gives no exception to the rule that lower Ht obstructions are ignored (page 41). If Wyrd intends this to work differently they would have change the rules in a future FAQ.

As the LoS are pretty abstract already I don't personally think one way or other is more intuitive in this case, it's pretty hard to hide a corpse IRL by standing on it. You would need an impressively large skirt (perhaps Anna Lovelace should have an ability that makes her better at obstructing markers).  

[solkan]

Is this the part where someone needs to point out that the FAQ entry in question is specifically about Scheme Markers, so everyone is pretty much guilty of extrapolating the answer beyond its specified scope?    I don't want to claim to be the Kettle or the Pot, I'd rather claim to be a vegetable steamer because that'd be more useful to me right now.

Quote

48) If a model on a 30mm base is positioned perfectly on top of a 30mm Scheme Marker such that the Marker is completely covered, can other models draw LoS to the Scheme Marker?

A: No. Note that in the case multiple Scheme Markers are stacked on top of each other (with nothing else on top of/blocking them) models may draw LoS to all Markers in the stack because Scheme Markers are not blocking.

Note the number of times that the question and answer are specific to Scheme Markers. 

Personally, when I go extrapolating out of the FAQ to make it cover more useful things, I prefer to make extrapolations that don't involve inventing new clauses and situations to the line of sight mechanics.

 

[Kogan Style]

I brought this up in the Rules Discussion forum for precisely this reason

Like Myyra I think the rules are very clear - Models/Terrain with Ht 1 less than the Model attempting to gain LoS are ignored. It is my opinion that the FAQ answer (and question) are badly worded. They should clarify the statement as to whether both 30mm models are the same Ht or not. 

 

[jonahmaul]

I would say that they do block LoS regardless of height. In the bit quoted in the thread Kogan links it states 'intervening' models and I'd argue that a model standing directly on top of a mraker isn't intervening, it is at the exact point you want to target. However thr FAQ is very poorly worded and should state explicitly that its regardless of Ht to stop people trying to rules lawyer it. As Myrra says you shouldn't make inferences from the rules or FAQ but by playing it RAW it comes up with a ridiculous situation.

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, jonahmaul said:

I would say that they do block LoS regardless of height. In the bit quoted in the thread Kogan links it states 'intervening' models and I'd argue that a model standing directly on top of a mraker isn't intervening, it is at the exact point you want to target. However thr FAQ is very poorly worded and should state explicitly that its regardless of Ht to stop people trying to rules lawyer it. As Myrra says you shouldn't make inferences from the rules or FAQ but by playing it RAW it comes up with a ridiculous situation.

Almost everything about Malifaux LoS rules leads to ridiculous situations, so that isn't really an argument why markers should be except from them.

[Endalaus]

I actually played a game last night against Sandeep, and ended with a 10-5 victory for Reva.

I ran:

Reva - 4ss Cache (Maniacal Laugh, Litany of the fallen, Guises of Death)

Anna Lovelace - Corpse Bloat

Vincent St. Clair

Bete Noire - Decaying Aura

Shieldbearer

Shieldbearer

Necropunk

We had Turf War, Standard Deployment, He took Show of Force and Search The Ruins and I took Convict labor and Undercover Entourage. 

Things I missed: I keep forgetting to heal when things die within 8 of Vincent and Reva. I had opportunities to use this a few times and forgot every single one. Summon a Corpse Candle each activation with Reva. Unless I am hurting for cards or something, I see no reason not to summon a candle, and had a turn or 2 where I didn't realize it until after I had attacked a few times. Vincent used his Funeral Pyre on a mindless zombie who was engaged with 2 Oxfordian Mages and a Sanctioned Spellcaster. I didn't realize at the time that the zombie would also have to take the walk duel. It wouldn't have made a difference as I got the trigger to not discard the Corpse Counter, so let's say the zombie took 2 wds, he would still be able to be there again. And honestly, had I played it correctly, it would have been stronger as the zombie most likely would have died and I wouldn't have had to discard him as a corpse counter and he would drop his own. Or at least that's my understanding.

As far as how everything worked together:

First off Reva is pretty beast. Her min damage is really strong and being able to declare df or wp, it helps her get around lots of nasty triggers. I used her to accomplish undercover entourage and was able to do it from about 10 inches from my side of the table on the last turn. She charged Kudra (last model on the board) finished her off and used her (0) to place to a corpse marker and then walked into the enemy deployment zone. The place is key as the corpse marker is within 5", she can place on the opposite side which with her 50mm base gives her another inch+ of movement. So 20+ inches of movement in a turn. I used every upgrade on her at least once. Maniacal Laugh was cool and I think I was able to get 4 Mindless Zombies from it, but I'll have to test it again to see if it's as impactful as I'd like.

Anna - Her range attack is great. She doesn't randomize in engagement which is awesome with zombies, bearers, and candles, but also her trigger to summon a zombie is great as well. The min damage of 3 is also fantastic. I used the Corpse Bloat upgrade, once to drop a Corpse Counter, and once for the explosion. The explosion I think killed maybe one model, but it was nice for forcing duels. Her dress abilities didn't really come into play all that much. Her rush of magic is a great help.

Vincent - He stuck to midfield but away from melee the whole game. He either used his crossbow, or funeral pyre. Crossbow at a target in the thick of corpses is very strong. Funeral Pyre was the mvp action for him though as I used it on a turn to just completely eat through 2 oxford mages and a sanctioned spellcaster. He needed 11's to pass the duels for each model and not being able to reduce the damage with his upgrades or arcane shields, was pretty crazy.

Bete - Huge moment was her popping up first turn when the opponent killed a nearby mindless zombie which was summoned from Anna. It was engaged with Sandeep, Kudra, and something else.(maybe a 3rd mage) She stood up and flurried Sandeep. With decaying Aura he couldn't use SS to prevent and she just did her thing. He did actually survive her assault, with impossible to wound doing a lot of mitigation on it's own. But he was left paralyzed. It didn't matter much as Reva was one of the last activations in the turn and she was able to channel through the corpse marker of the zombie to hit Sandeep. He died first turn. Bete actually did not show up turn 2 I believe as I didn't have the card I needed in hand to guarantee her survival and nothing really died that she could pop up from or wanted to pop up from. 

Sheildbearers - I love these guys. They only benefited from fast I think maybe once or twice, but they stick around for sure. They are great tanks and I found that they have a nice trigger when they fail a duel to still to 1 dmg. As far as Soulbound upgrades, only 1 bearer got to that point and he took the Gain SS on death one. All in all, I think these guys are great. 

Necropunk -  Did exactly what he needed to do. Leap, drop schemes, run, etc.

Like I said, there are some things I've missed and misplays I am sure, overall I am very happy with Reva.

[D_acolyte]

35 minutes ago, Endalaus said:

First off Reva is pretty beast. Her min damage is really strong and being able to declare df or wp, it helps her get around lots of nasty triggers. I used her to accomplish undercover entourage and was able to do it from about 10 inches from my side of the table on the last turn. She charged Kudra (last model on the board) finished her off and used her (0) to place to a corpse marker and then walked into the enemy deployment zone. The place is key as the corpse marker is within 5", she can place on the opposite side which with her 50mm base gives her another inch+ of movement. So 20+ inches of movement in a turn. I used every upgrade on her at least once. Maniacal Laugh was cool and I think I was able to get 4 Mindless Zombies from it, but I'll have to test it again to see if it's as impactful as I'd like.

I am still not sure about Maniacal Laugh as it puts her closer then I think she needs to be. Can you please give your thoughts on being close to the enemy or did you just put 4 corpses around her to make zombies. If so that seems like a big investment.