Shenlong and Sensei Yu both having the same style

[Primed]

Hey folks,

i was reading the 10t forums and came across this nugget of information and was wondering if it is legal(see picture). I've played it previously as only one copy of the style can be in play at once but it's come to my attention that multiple copies can be. The upgrades are not RareX so I assume this would work but it does seem a little unintentional. Leveticus has a similar worded upgrade in desolate soul that both him and alyce can take.

any clarification would be amazing, until then I shall continue playing this as I have been before.

[solkan]

Looking at the wording, it doesn't look like it's breaking any rules to carry out the interaction described.

Even for the objection "He already has the upgrade attached that he wants to attach the new copy of, that shouldn't work", there are a few cases where you would want to have multiple copies of the same upgrade attached, even though the hiring rules prevent it and most of the effects that add or remove attachments try to avoid that situation.  You could get into a situation where two Jack Daw players end up putting the same Cursed upgrade on a neutral model, for instance, as a game of Curse driven activation chicken.

Even if someone were to go crazy with Yan Lo and use his action

Quote

(0) Ascendance: This model may lower its Chi Condition value by the cost of any Upgrade with the restriction of Ascendant to attach that Upgrade, ignoring all usual restrictions for attaching Upgrades.

to attach the same upgrade twice, the duplication would still be handled by the Stacking rules:

Quote

3) If a model has an Upgrade that provides an Ability that it already has, then it only gains the Ability if both have a value. If they do not have a value, then the model does not gain the new Ability.

so, theoretically, if an upgrade ever granted Armor +1 and a player figured out how to get multiple copies of that upgrade on a model, those Armor +1's would stack.

Otherwise, stuff like Jack Daw Curse Chicken is just a "No, I don't want you do to be able to do it, either" thing.

 

14 hours ago, Primed said:

I don't think that it's game breaking, I would just rather have an answer to avoid any disagreements.

Unfortunately, you can't get a direct answer, because the powers that be aren't supposed to do that any more.  (No more rules marshals in the forum, handing down judgements on things.) 

The two possible outcomes are:

1.  It's a problem, so it gets addressed either as a FAQ (more likely) or errata (less likely), eventually.

2.  It's not a problem, so it doesn't get addressed.

where unfortunately "not a problem" and "intended behavior" aren't really something that can be distinguished.  But this thread does at least accomplish raising the issue so that if "another friendly model" (meaning anyone but Shen Long) instead of "any friendly model" (so that Shen Long is included) goes beyond what Shen Long is supposed to do, it'll get fixed.

There's remote possibility that someone might remember the wording history (assuming that wording changed any in public).

Edit:  Actually, I take that back.  There's also the third possibility.  The developers could look at things like the AWP discussion, dispair, and put an entry in the FAQ saying:

"Can Shen Long do this thing?  Yes.  <short description of why nothing bad happens>"
if everyone is convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the game mechanic is in error when they shouldn't doubt it.

 

[MrDeathTrout]

I agree.  It looks legal, but (I'm guessing) not intended.  As an aside I think it would still work even if they were Rare 1 since the restrictions only apply when hiring a crew unless otherwise stated.

[Primed]

2 minutes ago, MrDeathTrout said:

I agree.  It looks legal, but (I'm guessing) not intended.  As an aside I think it would still work even if they were Rare 1 since the restrictions only apply when hiring a crew unless otherwise stated.

It does feel hella gamey. It feels as though the unintentional and a grey area. Is there anyway to summon the powers that be to rule on it? 

It doesn't feel as though it breaks the game enough to warrant a ruling!

[Tokapondora]

I'm pretty sure Rare restrictions count even after crew building. 

"A Crew may never exceed a model’s Rare limit through summoning. If, for example,
an Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a
copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails."

I know it only says models but I'm gonna assume it works like that for everything. 

That said though, I do think you could attach a second one. Going by the wording, at least. In naming the upgrade you'd just name the second one? Somehow? Like when you summon a Belle, you don't summon a Belle that's already on the table. Though Ill agree this doesn't seem intended.

 

[MrDeathTrout]

5 minutes ago, Primed said:

It does feel hella gamey. It feels as though the unintentional and a grey area. Is there anyway to summon the powers that be to rule on it? 

It doesn't feel as though it breaks the game enough to warrant a ruling!

No.  People will discuss in the forums.  Most of the time we can come to a consensus.  If the topic is deemed worthy it will be added to the FAQ.  What makes a topic worthy is a mystery though.

I don't see it as a huge issue.  If you want both to have the same upgrade you going to have to make sure it is on Shenlong then make him take it again.  So there is bit of set up and it does take some resources.  I don't see breaking the game if they both have the same style.  If you use the proper order of operations they can both use the same style each round anyway, but shen passing/taking by activating before/after Yu each round.  Its a bit more work, to do it that way, but you get to choose which upgrade they both have each round rather than the post you found where they just keeps the same upgrade round to round.

 

 

[Primed]

In the FAQ #41 covers attaching upgrades and restrictions during the game. It was copied and pasted on Facebook which I took a screenshot of but it won't allow me to attach the image. What I took from it was screw what the card says after hiring is complete. 

[grandpapanurgl]

interested to see an official answer as well

[AverageBoss]

Sensei Yu also has similar interactions with Yan Los upgrades. In a Yan Lo crew, Yu can use Ascend and attach Yan Los upgrades, provided he himself has chi, even if Yan Lo already has those upgrades. Sensei Yu creates some interesting scenarios, that's for sure.

[Primed]

8 hours ago, grandpapanurgl said:

interested to see an official answer as well

I don't think that it's game breaking, I would just rather have an answer to avoid any disagreements.