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We have a summoning master!


Pyrflamme

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Now that the cat's out of the bag at last, I'm so hyped that we're getting a summoning Master. (see Asami's full card at http://www.wyrd-games.net/asami-tanaka )

Looking forward to using her with all the Oni arriving at the end of July, and that we now have a summoning option for stuff like Turf War, Reconnoiter, etc.

 

I'm also happy to see all the self- and other-pushes on her card. It'll provide some great tactical opportunities for sure.

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3 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Very worried about the health of the game after seeing her card as she exemplifies all the qualities of summoning I regard as OP, without any of the drawbacks. Glad TT got a summoner, very unhappy it was her mechanic. Very much hope I'm proved wrong.

Curious as to what qualities of summoning you regard as OP?

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Being able to summon without requiring specific resources to do it is the big one. I don't mean the suit requirement as that's expected. The ability to just whole cloth drop a full health model from thin air, with full wounds, that isn't limited by the amount of times she can take it just mystifies me. Nicodem can do something similar, but it requires a massive investment at the start of the game to actually get the required corpse markers started, and the summons he brings in are weak and easy to kill, unless extra corpses are removed. Molly tends to be the only master that can do something similar that I personally regard as fairly balanced, because she has to actually put herself in danger, and her defenses are anti-synergistic with what summoning requires, and she is the most fragile of the resser masters.

Being able to drop a model whole cloth, whose downside doesn't seem all that bad to me just looks very unbalancing. And limiting it to turns, when the game only goes 5 turns in any case seems to be too good.  She can summon Jorogumo, that are very difficult to remove, and could in theory come in with 3 turns of life, and that is assuming that getting extra flicker is hard. Now to be fair, I haven't played against her, and for all we know maybe condition removal will become more common in the next book. It just seems very much too good to me and the spectrum of power spread between masters seems to be a little much. 

Being a big resser player I'm trying to draw parallels with what our models do, and the closest I come is Kirai, and I regard her summoning as too good as well, so not happy to see more of it rather than a slight shave to Kirai's ability.

Like I said, I will be very happy to be wrong, this is just my initial, just looking at it for 10 min impression. Please don't let that dampen your enthusiasm. At least given their recent actions if the game begins to be dominated by these new masters they've shown they aren't afraid to shave them down. 

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2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Being able to summon without requiring specific resources to do it is the big one. I don't mean the suit requirement as that's expected. The ability to just whole cloth drop a full health model from thin air, with full wounds, that isn't limited by the amount of times she can take it just mystifies me. Nicodem can do something similar, but it requires a massive investment at the start of the game to actually get the required corpse markers started, and the summons he brings in are weak and easy to kill, unless extra corpses are removed. Molly tends to be the only master that can do something similar that I personally regard as fairly balanced, because she has to actually put herself in danger, and her defenses are anti-synergistic with what summoning requires, and she is the most fragile of the resser masters.

Being able to drop a model whole cloth, whose downside doesn't seem all that bad to me just looks very unbalancing. And limiting it to turns, when the game only goes 5 turns in any case seems to be too good.  She can summon Jorogumo, that are very difficult to remove, and could in theory come in with 3 turns of life, and that is assuming that getting extra flicker is hard. Now to be fair, I haven't played against her, and for all we know maybe condition removal will become more common in the next book. It just seems very much too good to me and the spectrum of power spread between masters seems to be a little much. 

Being a big resser player I'm trying to draw parallels with what our models do, and the closest I come is Kirai, and I regard her summoning as too good as well, so not happy to see more of it rather than a slight shave to Kirai's ability.

Like I said, I will be very happy to be wrong, this is just my initial, just looking at it for 10 min impression. Please don't let that dampen your enthusiasm. At least given their recent actions if the game begins to be dominated by these new masters they've shown they aren't afraid to shave them down. 

But if they're summoned without resources, the model only lasts a single turn, and a turn that it's slow at that... So basically she's spending an AP to summon a model that has 1AP... So using it without resources makes it more like an awesome Obey, since you can put the model in the position you want.  But it's not like she can flood the table with models without having corpse/scrap to do so.

Also, condition removal becomes really big, you're right... Summoning a Jorogumo and spending two corpse/scrap to make it last 3 turns, that can get wiped off with a single condition removal.  Guarantee that's going to happen to me, and it's going to suck haha.

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Not 1 AP. Again condition removal to remove slow, but the big thing is the Ability on the front of the card. You get to charge as a 1 AP action. So summon just within 4, then charge plus melee range for threat. Also look at what it says about her totem, as it says he can increase conditions, which I assume applies to flicker. I'd have been happier if she required a Corpse to summon, or if flicker couldn't be added to. Again we will see. Please be excited, I'm just someone who really gets into mechanics and hers are troubling to me.

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9 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not 1 AP. Again condition removal to remove slow, but the big thing is the Ability on the front of the card. You get to charge as a 1 AP action. So summon just within 4, then charge plus melee range for threat. Also look at what it says about her totem, as it says he can increase conditions, which I assume applies to flicker. I'd have been happier if she required a Corpse to summon, or if flicker couldn't be added to. Again we will see. Please be excited, I'm just someone who really gets into mechanics and hers are troubling to me.

The puny* human is right. 

YOU ARE HELPLESS BEFORE THE WRATH OF THE ONI!

 

 

 

*This post is made purely in jest. I do not mean to demean Fetid's point and I do not actually believe he is puny.

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13 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not 1 AP. Again condition removal to remove slow, but the big thing is the Ability on the front of the card. You get to charge as a 1 AP action. So summon just within 4, then charge plus melee range for threat. Also look at what it says about her totem, as it says he can increase conditions, which I assume applies to flicker. I'd have been happier if she required a Corpse to summon, or if flicker couldn't be added to. Again we will see. Please be excited, I'm just someone who really gets into mechanics and hers are troubling to me.

Condition removal = additional AP spent to get rid of slow.  Totem to increase conditions = additional AP to make it last another turn...(sounds like brass arachnid spending AP to give something reactivate...)  And charging as a 1AP doesn't have to apply to summoned models, so again, if this were just an obey it could do the same thing, trading 1AP on a master to get a 1AP on the model (granted, a 1AP charge).  So yeah, spending a 13 and a mask gives you a Jorogumo charging, which is pretty nasty.  But with a suited 13, or a 13 and a SS, most masters can do some beastly things with 1AP.

I get into mechanics too, probably moreso than I should.  But I tend to err on the side of Theoryfaux being exactly that, theory.  Once I lose to it a handful of times, then I'll start being worried.

Also... Totally pumped for this master.  Her+nightmare mccabe have made me finally commit to buying into Ten Thunders.

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Thing is, if you are suffering wounds to let the summoned model perform (1) Charge, you're letting your Wd count go dangerously low. You have a (0) heal, but since it requires discarding markers, it uses same resource as increasing Flicker. If you don't increase Flicker, summoned model won't count for Turf War/Interference like strategies. I agree it is powerful, but I think it will require careful resource management. And at least there doesn't seem to be any Ikiryo like summoning mechanic here ;)

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I think it's clear from her card that Asami will be powerful, and that her summoning will be something to be reckoned with, but I have to disagree with Fetid's presupposition that this is a problem. MAYBE it is, but "summoning a model with no resources other than cards/suits" seems like a very arbitrary line to draw. I think it's way more valuable to look at overall or absolute power level, rather than just if you need a scrap marker to summon something.

So, is Asami too powerful? We can't say for sure, but the summoner she more immediately reminds me of is The Dreamer (who probably IS too powerful). She pays 6 fewer stones to summon that Dreamer right off the bat (Dreams of Pain [5] and On Wings of Darkness [1]), but she has to use stones or have a high enough :mask to get the summon off, so that is probably a wash. Her models come in with full wounds, but Dreamer heals his summons so much that the 1 wound they come in with is almost always sufficient. Both have access to reasonable beaters & excellent scheme runners, with Dreamer having access to a model with a great Lure and one with some healing, control, and summoning of its own. IF you can reliably get +1 or 2 Flicker with Asami then, I'd say they're about equal. I don't think 10T has a lot of ways to generate those markers though, so I don't think her summon rises to that level. (I know Obsidian Oni are an obvious combo to generate scraps; I still don't think it's going to be reliable enough to tilt this away from The Dreamer.)

Now we can try comparing the rest of her abilities to The Dreamer or Kirai, but that's messy and sort of impossible. In the end, I'm not seeing anything that makes her obviously superior to them, so at worst we have a new tier 1 Master. Unless you've been loudly arguing that the two of them need to be Cuddled for power level concerns, rather than just a line you've set that doesn't really track game-design-wise, there doesn't seem to be anything to object to here.

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8 minutes ago, Lakshman said:

Thing is, if you are suffering wounds to let the summoned model perform (1) Charge, you're letting your Wd count go dangerously low. You have a (0) heal, but since it requires discarding markers, it uses same resource as increasing Flicker. If you don't increase Flicker, summoned model won't count for Turf War/Interference like strategies. I agree it is powerful, but I think it will require careful resource management. And at least there doesn't seem to be any Ikiryo like summoning mechanic here ;)

To be fair, her healing eats up Scheme markers; From the Maw They Come eats corpse and scrap. No real conflict there.

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4 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Sorry to say this, but because nightmare mccabe was an award for Guild winning a campaign, if anyone sees you use nightmare mccabe as a 10T model, you could be arrested and sentenced to 3 to 5 years in prison. 

As an arcanist representative in said campaign, I claim corruption.  One more example of the tyranny of the Guild trying to keep the working man down.

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1 minute ago, tomjoad said:

To be fair, her healing eats up Scheme markers; From the Maw They Come eats corpse and scrap. No real conflict there.

Oh, you're right. Somehow I registered From the Maw They Come as using scheme, corpse or scrap - my bad.

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Justin thank you for your input.  I think all the new masters look pretty awesome.  What always amazes me is that they all seem to fit in so well, yet not overlap with any existing masters.  It's like they were always meant to be in the game.

 

So many summoners, yet all with a positive twist.

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Still, essence of my point remains - if she wants her models to take the charge and die, she needs resources - scheme markers to heal herself (and she needs to operate close enough to the enemy that the models she summons will be able to charge). If she wants them to live a little longer, she needs corpse and scrap markers, which usually also means she can't stay in her backyard (her totem may be of some help here, but I don't think increasing Flicker will come cheap for him).

On the other hand, her upgrades seem fantastic, especially Nefarious Pact seems helpful - I wonder how expensive they will be.

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I think Asami has some very interesting mechanics: Nicodem and Dreamer are happy sitting at the back summoning hordes; Kirai likes to be in the middle of her own crew; Molly wants to be where the fighting is; Asami wants to be where the fighting WAS.

The fact that the models are sacrificed when the condition ends makes her brilliant for Reckoning, Collect the Bounty, etc, but not as efficient as other summoners at the traditional summon starts (reconnoiter, etc) as she is less resource efficient if the model needs to be alive at the end of the turn. I can see situations where friendly condition removal will be advantageous (but beware obey...).

Other then being cheap, a Tengu seems a fairly poor summon most of the time, as they will probably be gone by the time they can drop precious scheme markers. A jorogumo on the other hand, is worthwhile for one turn and a 13:mask.

Oh - you know how you look at Mr Tannen's (0) action and think "not worth it"? Not anymore!

Asami herself can do a lot of different things, but as previously stated she will not be far from the action. Def 7, hard to kill and self heal is great. Wp5, wd 10 and dealing damage to her for charges is not great. Time it wrong and your opponent will obliterate her! This is where Misdirection and/or Servant of 5 Dragons will become serious considerations, but sneakily, it appears that Justin has gone and given her very powerful upgrades of her own: meaning there will be some hard choices ahead! Which is good for the game, I think.

I suspect, Asami played well will rumble with the best of them, but make a mistake and a canny opponent will roll over her. I can't wait to get my hands on her: I imagine that to begin with a lot of opponents will be up in arms about her, but when the dust settles she is going to be considered top notch, but not OP.

P.s. judging by her back story, I think she might just need a cuddle. And I do mean cuddle.

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some models I think could be really strong considerations are, 1 tengu as a back line support for Asami. Get up to regen +4 with the right cards and when Asami activates (if anything used her charge (1) thing) she can heal back up. Something else is that it looks like shadow emissary might be really strong even without a conflux for her. The generic one with the [+] flips to attacks could be silly for all the oni minions. Not to mention, from what was being discussed about the totem increasing conditions. You could increase the Destined condition on the Emissary and give everything focus +1 every other turn possibly? There looks to be some really cool stuff that plays really well with each other.

I'm not a TT player, but I will say Asami is definitely giving me some inspiration.

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I think the time as a resource is an amazing concept. Later in the game when there are apt to be more corpse and scrap around you dont need it as much. Early in the game you will be scrounging for it. On top of that having them come in with a condition is huge. Granted we dont know how the totem and upgrades fit in, but currently I yhink it is an awesome design. 

 If you think about summoning Jorogumo you are looking at a 13 and a SS, which comes in with flicker 1. So it will either die at the end of the turn or with a condition removal. Easiest being Johan. Which for a 1 AP action can be huge. 

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