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Are we actually underpowered?

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IME, Guild have a few tier 1 crews, but only a few. In the US, where I think the competitive scene is newer, even top players won't really have a lot of experience vs Sonnia/Perdita, so they can do very well. However, as someone who has played against those two more than any another masters (and my regular opponent is a top-level player), I have found that as I get better, his lack of options really hurts him. In other words, I can now predict his crews/schemes far more easily than he can predict mine.

Meanwhile, my Neverborn have a huge number of extremely effective crews. I even have a tier 1 Zoraida crew that absolutely crushes Perdita.

tl;dr - The Guild player's opponent only really has to consider a few strong configurations, while other factions have many many awesome builds.

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57 minutes ago, orkdork said:

Guild have a few tier 1 crews, but only a few. In the US, where I think the competitive scene is newer, even top players won't really have a lot of experience vs Sonnia/Perdita, so they can do very well. However, as someone who has played against those two more than any another masters (and my regular opponent is a top-level player), I have found that as I get better, his lack of options really hurts him. In other words, I can now predict his crews/schemes far more easily than he can predict mine.

Meanwhile, my Neverborn have a huge number of extremely effective crews. I even have a tier 1 Zoraida crew that absolutely crushes Perdita.

tl;dr - The Guild player's opponent only really has to consider a few strong configurations, while other factions have many many awesome builds.

What Zoraida crushes Perdita? What does the Perdita have?

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2 hours ago, trikk said:

What Zoraida crushes Perdita? What does the Perdita have?

Core of Zoraida is:

-Zoraida, Typically Wings of Darkness and 7 SS, but not necessarily

-Iggy

-Doppel, Retribution's Eye optional

-McTavish, Hexed Among You, Mimic's Blessing optional

-Lilitu, Mimic's Blessing optional

Rest of crew is a mix of Waldgeists/Gupps/Silurid based on S&S and the board. Very strong vs. other ranged crews. Sh attacks suffer tremendously vs. all the perfect camo, while voodoo doll/Iggy + ~3-6 McTavish shots can easily kill 2 models per turn. With up to 5 Ca7 Lures as well, it's really hard to stay safe vs. this crew. It often comes down to "Perdita can't kill everything nearly fast enough". 

The Perdita crew has a mix of all the good stuff. He usually takes Frank in a Box (that's Francisco + Emissary, which is really strong for both protecting Frank and for the Enfrente followed by 4 attacks from Frank's sword), and otherwise will be building based on the S&S.

Bear in mind that he has to consider two different styles of Dreamer, 2 different styles of Lilith, and a Pandora crew that is very, very hard to beat if he doesn't build specifically for it. That's 6 crews he has to plan for (unless it is table quarters, which becomes Sonnia vs. Dreamer in a headache of a game :().

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Well, TBH if you take this list vs Guild and end up playing vs Sonnia I think he can put up a fight.

Same with Frank buffed Justice. McCabe/Dita with 4 dogs can also mess this up quite a lot as this list is pretty prone to outactivation (you lose a lot of bonuses)

 

Also I would probably favour Sonnia vs Neverborn as her hardest matchup is Lilith (for me) and other are not that bad

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On 2 August 2016 at 1:10 PM, trikk said:

Well, Df7 models are pretty rare anyways.

 

Guild:
Pedtia, McCabe engaged with 2 models

 

Ressers:

Bete Noir,Hayreddin

 

Arcanists:

Myranda, A lot of models with Df6 and Imbued Protection

 

Neverborn:

Lilith, Vasilisa, Baby Kade

 

Outcasts:

Dust Storm

 

Gremlins:

Skeeters, Sammy Lacroix

 

Ten Thunders:

McCabe engaged with 2 models

 

 

OTOH we are the only faction with possible Wp11 and Df 9 :P

You forgot lucius when his scribe is nearby

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Guild are not underpowered 

they do not lack good options

they get even better tomorrow - just read Nellie's card a few more times.

they lack a "top player" champion - a player from the tip of the spear who is guild-dedicated.  This is probably because, in the uk, those players are still those who started the game in the last edition and formed loving relationships with other factions. 

This historical bias has an echo today, but it is only an echo - nothing wrong with the faction.  I've taken them to 2 events this year (also taken outcast twice and ressers once - the rest have been neverborn) and achieved 4th or higher with all of them. 

I will be taking them to more events too. 

Joel

 

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It would be nice if Lucius had more going for him. Even if Guild isn't underpowered, I'm not sure its even up for debate whether or not Lucius is. Hopefully he gets some love to bring him in line because honestly as a minion master I'd pick McCabe every time and for schemes I feel like Nellie just obsoletes him.

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1 hour ago, Joel said:

Guild are not underpowered 

they do not lack good options

they get even better tomorrow - just read Nellie's card a few more times.

they lack a "top player" champion - a player from the tip of the spear who is guild-dedicated.  This is probably because, in the uk, those players are still those who started the game in the last edition and formed loving relationships with other factions. 

This historical bias has an echo today, but it is only an echo - nothing wrong with the faction.  I've taken them to 2 events this year (also taken outcast twice and ressers once - the rest have been neverborn) and achieved 4th or higher with all of them. 

I will be taking them to more events too. 

Joel

 

Thats the spirit! 

I`m going to the UK Nationals with Sonnia, Perdita and Nellie and I`m going to prove them how its done ;)

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It's not that guild are under powered it's that wyrd have made them rely so much on Francisco that they are a boring faction that are just a bland repetitive same old list every time. Its up to wyrd to either change things or leave it be. If they are happy to see the same old stuff over and over that's on them. End of the day I'm sure they don't mind as long as folk keep buying pertita's box and giving them cash. Kinda like gw and space marines. Maybe they'll fix guild for 3rd edition so other models get a look in

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I strongly disagree. Guild does not need Francisco to be able to play.

He simply is a very good model, like Obedient was in Outcasts, Howard/Acolytes in Arcanists and Doppelganger in Neverborn.

 

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1 hour ago, UndeadKing said:

It's not that guild are under powered it's that wyrd have made them rely so much on Francisco that they are a boring faction that are just a bland repetitive same old list every time. Its up to wyrd to either change things or leave it be. If they are happy to see the same old stuff over and over that's on them. End of the day I'm sure they don't mind as long as folk keep buying pertita's box and giving them cash. Kinda like gw and space marines. Maybe they'll fix guild for 3rd edition so other models get a look in

A new edition will likely see a lot of things changed like last time, including Francisco. He beats the other henchmen but he isn't spacemarine level boring, that had to do with entire armies being unplayable/not getting releases for years. I see a lot of guild lists without him, he is just the best tool for being in your opponents face with your master all game which not every strategy or list revolves around. He is only an auto-pick for me if you are going for show of force. As soon as I get my hands on Queeg I can imagine promises-Queeg as more of a staple than Francisco. I guess the two of them together could be a nice tag team.

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1 hour ago, UndeadKing said:

It's not that guild are under powered it's that wyrd have made them rely so much on Francisco that they are a boring faction that are just a bland repetitive same old list every time. Its up to wyrd to either change things or leave it be. If they are happy to see the same old stuff over and over that's on them. End of the day I'm sure they don't mind as long as folk keep buying pertita's box and giving them cash. Kinda like gw and space marines. Maybe they'll fix guild for 3rd edition so other models get a look in

I don't use Francisco - I have no problem playing/winning games.

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Even more so, when playing Sonnia I feel more crutched to use Papa-In-a-Box than Francisco. This is also due to the fact I usually blow up in my favour with Papa Loco (last time the DM and Papa died, but took Waldgeist, Doppelganger and 11 Wds off of Pandora which were prevented in some degree).

 

Hoffman, McCabe, Lucius and Perdita can usually do fine without Francisco. Lady J and McMourning need them because they have low Df and they are "in the thick of it" usually while Sonnia can be pretty crippled when she`s engaged so its her personal bodyguard.

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I'd argue that Lady J doesn't need him. Her wounds, healing and riposte work well enough for me. Only lost her once.

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I`ll rephrase that. 

Its a lot easier playing her with Francisco because you have better chances of hitting riposte . El Mayor also allows you to play way more reckless and makes it harder for your opponent to punish your mistakes.

 

I think I managed to Riposte once without Frank.

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19 hours ago, trikk said:

Well, TBH if you take this list vs Guild and end up playing vs Sonnia I think he can put up a fight.

Same with Frank buffed Justice. McCabe/Dita with 4 dogs can also mess this up quite a lot as this list is pretty prone to outactivation (you lose a lot of bonuses)

 

Also I would probably favour Sonnia vs Neverborn as her hardest matchup is Lilith (for me) and other are not that bad

Activation control is indeed very important vs. that Zoraida list, but it isn't like "out-activate it and win". It's more like "out-activate it and have a prayer". If you don't out-activate that list, you get crushed very hard (if you can't dive it).

One thing to consider about dogs vs. that list is that it kills them very fast.

Sonnia does indeed have game vs. this list. Sonnia has game vs. most everything. But she does run into scheme pools that are very hard for her to do, compared to other masters.

Also, do you have a monster Pandora player in your meta? I'm not talking about the Box Opens cuteness, I'm talking about the truly beastly Neverborn Allstars + Voices list (Nekima and lures). That is the list that gives Sonnia the most fits, as it can actually alpha her, and if she doesn't have El Mayor, she likely gets paralyzed + incited at the start of the turn. It is still a winnable matchup for Sonia, for sure, provided the scheme pool doesn't mess Sonnia up.

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9 hours ago, trikk said:

I`ll rephrase that. 

Its a lot easier playing her with Francisco because you have better chances of hitting riposte . El Mayor also allows you to play way more reckless and makes it harder for your opponent to punish your mistakes.

 

I think I managed to Riposte once without Frank.

Which means you are forcing your play around setting that up and telegraphing you intent, your activation order and spending a decent chunk of soulstones to give yourself all that disadvantage for a gain you don't need.

skewing your build and your play around Francisco is where most guild players go wrong IMO - it makes you predictable and costs you games 

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4 minutes ago, orkdork said:

I think Joel is hinting pretty hard that this is a moot discussion until we have a bunch more time with RoF :)

Not really, but RoF will shake stuff up. I truly believe that being predictable is the pathway to losing more than you win - and guild players (note I said players, not masters) reliance on frank is a hurdle many need to jump 

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He's a really great model, but he's a total crutch.  Just like Loco.  God-forbid you end up playing someone with Obey when you're playing Loco.

I feel like many of the masters from Guild are under-rated; it feels like so many people focus on the hammer aspect of the game rather than the scalpel.  Since most of the Guild Masters are a bag of hammers, playing one with nuance is a tough departure.  Which is why I really feel like Lucius gets a really bad rap.  In my experience he does a mountain of damage against crews (through his minions), but it's not Master-centric like Sonnia, Perdita or Lady Justice.  He can command his minions around to either set up for blowing something away or fall back to a less dangerous position (or to lay down some scheme markers).

Really looking forward to the release of some of the new minions (Mounted Guard, Sanctioned Spellcasters, Reporters) to really shake up control elements in Guild.  I really feel like the emissary does a good job already of making some of his harder to achieve attacks/actions much more possible.

I've found though that reading the forms seems to be an exercise in pessimism, though.  I've found Guild to be very good (I win about 90% of my games); but my evidence is anecdotal, as I'm sure that my small isolated meta (Alaska) is probably pretty weird.  It definitely is for other games (40k, W/H).

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Personally I rarely take Franc out of Perdita. She is one of my main masters I play with, but I rarely take her to a competitive game.

i think more Guild players need to look at the crew for dmg and then the master to add something extra. Step back Perdita, Sonnia and Lady J (as much as I love playing them) step forward McMourning, McCabe and Hoffman. So it's either Double Mc or Science Bro's for the win... Until my Nellie box gets here :)

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15 hours ago, orkdork said:

Activation control is indeed very important vs. that Zoraida list, but it isn't like "out-activate it and win". It's more like "out-activate it and have a prayer". If you don't out-activate that list, you get crushed very hard (if you can't dive it).

One thing to consider about dogs vs. that list is that it kills them very fast.

Sonnia does indeed have game vs. this list. Sonnia has game vs. most everything. But she does run into scheme pools that are very hard for her to do, compared to other masters.

Also, do you have a monster Pandora player in your meta? I'm not talking about the Box Opens cuteness, I'm talking about the truly beastly Neverborn Allstars + Voices list (Nekima and lures). That is the list that gives Sonnia the most fits, as it can actually alpha her, and if she doesn't have El Mayor, she likely gets paralyzed + incited at the start of the turn. It is still a winnable matchup for Sonia, for sure, provided the scheme pool doesn't mess Sonnia up.

The list you proposed had I think 12 SS left. McTavish is a great model, but if Finger on The Trigger with Bullet Bending is in, the duo of Austringers + Perdita with Vengeance Bullet might finish him off quite fast and then you are kind of low on the damage part (not including iggy + doll combo)

 

This is also a very hit-and-miss list as I believe vs a lot of Guild lists its going to struggle hard and I really think siding your list for a particular master is meh. It is a very good list, but all I`m saying is "crushes Perdita" is a big statement and I would like to see you play it/or play against it.

 

My regular opponent plays: Lilith, Nekima, Graves, Doppelganger, Worm, Lilitu, Effigy and Tot usually, so I have some experience with Lures and Nekima, but its hard ot compare distant metas as we don`t know actual power level or our/our opponents play compared to our.

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On June 30, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Justin said:

Same person, same list.

Mostly Sonnia, at least one game I saw with Perdita. No Papa Loco (in any games I saw, Sonnia or Perdita).

For the record, I was that one Deets game.  Had dropped my anti Sonia list and got shot up real good.

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14 hours ago, trikk said:

The list you proposed had I think 12 SS left. McTavish is a great model, but if Finger on The Trigger with Bullet Bending is in, the duo of Austringers + Perdita with Vengeance Bullet might finish him off quite fast and then you are kind of low on the damage part (not including iggy + doll combo)

This is also a very hit-and-miss list as I believe vs a lot of Guild lists its going to struggle hard and I really think siding your list for a particular master is meh. It is a very good list, but all I`m saying is "crushes Perdita" is a big statement and I would like to see you play it/or play against it.

My regular opponent plays: Lilith, Nekima, Graves, Doppelganger, Worm, Lilitu, Effigy and Tot usually, so I have some experience with Lures and Nekima, but its hard ot compare distant metas as we don`t know actual power level or our/our opponents play compared to our.

If McTavish dies, the list folds extremely fast to Perdita. He's the threat that keeps her in check, so you're very correct on that point (I know this from losing to a different killy master, and it's clear when you consider how little Zoraida can do to enemy masters). It's pretty tricky for Austringers to safely be somewhere to attack McTavish, since the list focuses on bringing things to him rather than him moving up toward other things. It can definitely happen, but it hasn't happened yet vs. Perdita.

Yes, "crushes" is a big statement :) We currently have two matchups that seem impossibly one-sided: McMourning vs. Pandora and Perdita vs. this flavor of Zoraida. I could definitely be overstating it, but we did try a couple games with a huge handicap (+10SS for Perdita) and they still went Zoraida's way.

I would love to play you sometime! Sounds like you face legitimately strong Neverborn often (Greg's list with Lilitu for Johan is a very good list vs. Guild). As far as skill, my brother has more than his share of gamer-credentials, having been arguably the best WFB player in the Western US/Canada for a good chunk of time, along with a pile of other successes, but as we get to be old fogies, we don't put nearly as much of our brains into gaming as we used to :) It wouldn't be a shocker if we're missing something!

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With the recent cuddles I think Guild is in serious jeopardy of either being underpowered or no longer among the truly competitive factions.

Losing Papabox and Austringer sniping/board control and getting nothing in return hurts.

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