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Are we actually underpowered?


fauxreigner

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6 minutes ago, Justin said:

Done about what?

I'm not really in the camp that thinks Guild as a whole is underpowered. As I said I do agree they lack upgrades. We've made the numbers on the generalist Upgrade deck public. You should check out how many upgrades Guild have compared to other Factions...

 

I too agree and definitely don't think guild is underpowered as a faction (!!), but the whole guardsmen theme with lucius feels quite (a lot) underwhelming.

The FAQ part I was wondering about the abilities which can change scheme markers at the end of the game. That used to be an awesome ability when scheme markers were resolved at the end of the game.

Right on, trikk!


PS. Thanks Justin, for taking the time to share your thoughts! :)

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5 minutes ago, Guardian said:

The FAQ part I was wondering about the abilities which can change scheme markers at the end of the game. That used to be an awesome ability when scheme markers were resolved at the end of the game.

I'm pretty sure putting a statement in the FAQ which radically changed how a category of abilities worked--like making the end of game abilities which manipulate scheme markers apply at the end of each turn instead--would be considered cheating.  And it would be "cheating" because someone new to the game would have no reason to go looking in the FAQ section to find out that the card has changed. 

That's the sort of thing that you have to use an errata or upgrade to change.

It's might sound like a minor difference, but it's an important one.

 

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I think  the abilities becoming a bit more niche is probably ok.  The models (particularly Lucius) could use some buffs in other areas anyway.  The new scoring style is so much better for the game as a whole I don't consider it a crippling loss.  I wouldn't complain if they were errata'd to a once per game kind of trick to be more flexible but I wouldn't make the change just because.  Some of the models that lost power over that change did so for the better of the game anyway (looking at you, Primordial).

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The guild is competitive, just not diverse. If you want to win you have to take certain masters and crew models because otherwise you just make i difficult for yourself by going out with sub-par crews. some other factions (like neverborn) just got a lot more diverse, themed and powerfull lists with a lot of internal synergy, but those many lists aren't amazingly better than our few.

generalist upgrades can help for sure, but i feel that in some cases more crew specific upgrades are needed to make the weaker ones work (like DM and guild guard => what wyrd tried to do with last blossom 0ss upgrades)

=> that being said: super excited for the new upcoming marshalls + that merc guy (forgot his name).

 

PS: I noticed in a lot of threads (not only this one) that people are making the claim that our faction may or may not be designed with "el mayor" in mind (and sometimes also austringer). I also notice that this is a subject that never really gets a straight answer. I'm starting to get curious about the validity of this claim. :P 

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I'm pretty sure guild will never get more df 7 models as long as El Mayor stays while other factions have gotten df 7 models after we stopped getting them so I think it influences the design. Please correct me if I'm wrong since I don't have the books.

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Well, Df7 models are pretty rare anyways.

 

Guild:
Pedtia, McCabe engaged with 2 models

 

Ressers:

Bete Noir,Hayreddin

 

Arcanists:

Myranda, A lot of models with Df6 and Imbued Protection

 

Neverborn:

Lilith, Vasilisa, Baby Kade

 

Outcasts:

Dust Storm

 

Gremlins:

Skeeters, Sammy Lacroix

 

Ten Thunders:

McCabe engaged with 2 models

 

 

OTOH we are the only faction with possible Wp11 and Df 9 :P

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Personal observation, why is It even a question of whether an ability a faction possesses might limit its design options? Of course it does.

Every single model a faction gets and every ability they have influence the future development of models. Look at Ressers. After wave 1 they've not gotten a good damage dealing wp attack on any model that is a general use model an not limited to one master. There was an open question during the 2nd wave open beta if Onryo and Shikome being able to freely attack wp or df was too powerful because of Seamus, and we saw how that turned out.

Every single powerful model and ability a faction gets has to be considered in regards to what comes after. That is how balance works. Look at how NB design gets skewed because Nekima exists. 

So of course every single guild model that gets created has to be looked at in regards to Francisco. To do otherwise would be nonsensical. 

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3 hours ago, Ashlian said:

PS: I noticed in a lot of threads (not only this one) that people are making the claim that our faction may or may not be designed with "el mayor" in mind (and sometimes also austringer). I also notice that this is a subject that never really gets a straight answer. I'm starting to get curious about the validity of this claim. :P 

Given we have two rules that target "non-Austringer", I think its fairly safe to assume Austringers affect Guild design. ;)

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2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Personal observation, why is It even a question of whether an ability a faction possesses might limit its design options? Of course it does.

Every single model a faction gets and every ability they have influence the future development of models. Look at Ressers. After wave 1 they've not gotten a good damage dealing wp attack on any model that is a general use model an not limited to one master. 

I agree, but somehow it feels that the whole faction was hit pretty hard for this single ability. Its not something "faction wide" like crit strike, or an ability that a generic model(s) could have (priced correctly) which would warrant taking it into an account for the whole faction.
Somehow it looks like every time there was a situation: "Maybe this is a little weak, maybe add a bit of armor, a stat increase..." the decision would end up: "Nah, there is always Francisco, its fine.".

Not to mention Francisco being an Ortega Family themed named character, who gets shoehorned in practically every list.

I guess the ship has sailed.

Lets hope for a wider M2E rebalancing effort somewhere in the future.

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Ressers got hit hard because of Seamus' Sinister reputation. Neverborn got hit because of Nekima. Other factions get restricted because of their options. I'm not seeing what is so special about Guild that they are unique in this regard. Unless you are basically going to continually errata every model which is regularly taken in lists, and then the models that fill their place, and then again and so on, which causes its own problems (and I'm not a never errata type of person) you have to live with abilities that came before. There isn't really a capability to rebalance entire factions in the way you suggest without an edition change.

The only other thing that could happen, as I personally suspect will from what we've seen of book 4, is if the general power level across the board goes up. So that only having masters with average df 7+ (due to Francisco) and whatever other defensive abilities or play styles a model has isn't enough to keep up with what is the current norm. 

I mean its a sort of catch 22. I remember in the initial stages of the wave 1 open beta how I was of the argument that the strongest pieces should always be thematic and synergistic with their own crews. Massive disagreement on that with people going, no we can't do that because that limits options. I don't want to only have to play witch hunters when I play Sonnia. Its a faction not a master. And from a business decision I can't fault the logic, and from a mechanical perspective again I can't fault the argument even if I don't necessarily agree entirely with it. However the reverse situation occurs when you create a piece like Francisco as a generalist model then the complaint becomes exactly as you put out. I don't want to feel like I have to take Francisco. He's not thematic in the majority of crews and I don't want to play him in a Lady J or Nelly crew. Which again is a fair point, but you can't have it both ways. 

Frankly it mystifies me when people complain about Francisco and say aside from the El Mayor he isn't worth his stones, whereas I see him and think he's worth his stones even without El Mayor.

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Quote

I don't want to only have to play witch hunters when I play Sonnia. Its a faction not a master.

I would actually completely disagree with this. to me it would make sense to give every specific master a specific playstyle and specific crew build choices. if you don't want to play witch hunters, fine you got hoffman for construct lists, DM with LJ,... etc. not saying that taking 1 or 2 constructs with sonnia should be bad, but it would make most sense to  me to have the following:

pick faction => pick master => pick about half of the crew based on master theme => fill out crew with random models or more themed models.

1 master should not play the whole faction => it are the diverse masters that make the faction in my opinion.

 

for the most part i even think wyrd succeded in doing this:

 

*perdita and family are very good and diverse crew possibilities.

*sonnia works with witch hunters and without.

*hoffmann is in my experience also viable in heavy construct lists

*dokter Mc Mourning works very good as well with multitude builds

*lucas works with about everything

 

*LJ just doesn't work great at moment in themed crews and without franc, BUT very hopeful with this new book and the added upgrades / marshals + recently released emissary (please be in the mail fast!)

*lucious is very thematic but apparently to weak? (i don't play him)

 

new reporter crew looks like it has some potentional depending on those minions and henchman.

 

so i really only find LJ an lucious to be a bit underwhelming (and the guild guard as well => don't like most sculpts and very boring rules all round)

 

 

 

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Perhaps I wasn't clear, that wasn't my argument, that was the prevailing and ultimately successful argument during the wave 1 open testing, which has clearly influenced how models are designed and released. And you really can't fault the business logic behind it, because if you make a model for Lady J's crew, only players who play Lady J will buy it. If you make a model for the faction of guild as a whole you open up vastly more potential buyers. It doesn't matter if we disagree with it. It is the reality.

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Often design gets pigeonholed into "good design"/"bad design" and neglects to appreciate that design is all about trade offs.  A combat engine, for example, WILL favor something; be it high volume or high quality or something and its a matter of costing that mechanical favoritism appropriately.

I do think the decision to go "keyword lite" is one that's become problematic.  It makes sense in the Wave 1 mindset, as the core model line doesn't provide much variety for masters within their keyword bucket.  Perdita doesn't even have a Family Minion option for example.  Not relying on the keywords creates a healthy amount of diversity with a small subset of models.

The problem comes when you expand the line with Wave 2.  Now there's a healthy diversity within a keyword, but since few rules utilize them, the only thing that promotes model diversity is passive synergies that tend to be less thematic (obvious passive synergies tend to get stomped out in playtesting) and harder to incentive breaking up.  Warmachine has the #DesignSpace joke going right now, but keyword synergies are exactly that; benefits that apply to a limited subset of models in order to allow the creation of other models that cannot benefit from those abilities.

I do think they keyword upgrades have potential to improve this and are an element worth revisiting in a future wave.  There's some cool potential to even make them master specific upgrades that ignore slot restrictions or even maybe upgrades for the totems.  Designed properly, Malifaux could do really well with a theme force kind of design, but it would require a lot of thought to implement correctly.

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3 hours ago, Adran said:

You wish

Look here 

 

Highest df is 10 and wp 22. At least that I could get to. 

Sure, but bumping Perdita/Sonnia by Francisco is a more achievable combo than making a 50SS list about getting someone to Wp 22 if the enemy doesn`t do anything ;)

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13 minutes ago, trikk said:

Sure, but bumping Perdita/Sonnia by Francisco is a more achievable combo than making a 50SS list about getting someone to Wp 22 if the enemy doesn`t do anything ;)

It actually isn't even a completely terrible list, at least if you aren't trying to get that Wp 22 (which you can only get against a specific opponent anyways.)

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20 hours ago, Guardian said:

I agree, but somehow it feels that the whole faction was hit pretty hard for this single ability. Its not something "faction wide" like crit strike, or an ability that a generic model(s) could have (priced correctly) which would warrant taking it into an account for the whole faction.
Somehow it looks like every time there was a situation: "Maybe this is a little weak, maybe add a bit of armor, a stat increase..." the decision would end up: "Nah, there is always Francisco, its fine.".

Not to mention Francisco being an Ortega Family themed named character, who gets shoehorned in practically every list.

I guess the ship has sailed.

Lets hope for a wider M2E rebalancing effort somewhere in the future.

I'm going to have to question your view on this. 

Even assuming that the playtesting didn't look at the wide implications of El mayor, he comes in a box with the highest DF master in the game. Play testing did look at what happens when there is a master with Df 7 who could be affected by him. How much more extreme would you like for testing if it is overpowered. 

 

I'd also argue that Wave 1 and 2 are both the core models. The Majority of the two waves were models that existed and needed converting to M2E. 

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1 hour ago, Cinnamon Bear said:

On a more hopeful note, perhaps our new upgrades will help alleviate any real or imagined shortcomings! Surely some kind soul will let us know how the Guild fares and who's getting some love.

If nothing else, it would really make Show of Force more interesting.

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