Are we actually underpowered?

[Tris]

4 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

With the recent cuddles I think Guild is in serious jeopardy of either being underpowered or no longer among the truly competitive factions.

Losing Papabox and Austringer sniping/board control and getting nothing in return hurts.

Sorry, but it`s really not as if the entire faction was based on Papa box and Austringers, and what do you mean with nothing in return?

Finally good general upgrades (dept, numb), competitive big minion (thralls) and Nellie plus her entourage?

 

All that opens a lot of possibilities for playing Guild as a faction, don`t you think?

 

 

[Myyrä]

Neither Nellie nor McCabe never relied on Papa in the Box, so the recent changes are mostly positive from their point of view, and they do rank among the more powerful masters within the faction.

[JDAntoine]

I believe if anything weve become more potent. This directly comes from Lucius' massive upgrades and thus allowing us to branch into Neverborn choices aswell.

The one worry I had is in regards to the DM who is the only model who recieved an indirect cuddle and recieved nothing in options.

Austringer can now focus and still not require LoS.

As per Numb the World, Papa Loco has been optional without box competatively for a while.

Other changes are largely the same or improvements. Leaving only Lady J to be a below competative average Master for us.

Guild will do well in 2017 because our Wave 4 is very potent. Only summonning is missing from our options and I feel we can branch into at least as many options as TT now.

[trikk]

Papa Loco now requires more careful play. Deliver orders is still 18". I feel the Guild meta has been shaken and changing the autoincludes gives more room for crew variation as dual-Austringers won't be a common thing as will the DM and Papa. I played around 6 games with the new changes and I didn't really feel underpowered

Edited January 1, 2017 by trikk

[Myyrä]

57 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

Austringer can now focus and still not require LoS.

Austringer has never required LoS even when focusing.

[Ludvig]

Frame for murder just became a lot more common and finish the job seems like it will mesh well with dig their graves so death marshals may have gotten a boost in regards to scheme changes.

Nellie and Lucius should thrive in the new scheme environment. Reporters are completely sick for 4ss with all their defensive tech and ability to move enemy models. I think they will turn into auto-includes in a variety of pools andreally change what people need to gear for to have a shot against guild.

[JDAntoine]

26 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Austringer has never required LoS even when focusing.

 instead.

[Myyrä]

3 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

 instead.

Doesn't change the fact that the ability does not require LoS.

[JDAntoine]

11 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Doesn't change the fact that the ability does not require LoS.

Doesnt change the fact that it isnt a direct cuddle in the overall use in the attack.

In my games I focused rarely with the Austringer in the latagame because of it.

Additionally its still one of the best if not the best minion in our faction.

[HowNot2Wargame]

To me the changes open up many options for later waves of models. It's a really good game design point bringing stuff back within the confines of the game. Also trying to explain el mayor or hold this to new players was well... pretty silly.

as I said early in this thread/year, guild have so many ways of dealing good minimum dmg, I always look to the masters who can do more than kill. Mainly for me Nellie, Hoffman and McCabe, and I am really excited to get into Lucius more now I a can use more than minions. I love Perdita fluff wise, but people can always see her coming.

 

[Surrealistik]

On 2016-12-31 at 5:14 PM, Tris said:

Sorry, but it`s really not as if the entire faction was based on Papa box and Austringers, and what do you mean with nothing in return?

Finally good general upgrades (dept, numb), competitive big minion (thralls) and Nellie plus her entourage?

 

All that opens a lot of possibilities for playing Guild as a faction, don`t you think?

In actuality we already had those, and Guild wasn't in a problematic or dominant position between the time it acquired these new tools and the cuddle.

 

On 2017-01-01 at 6:54 AM, Myyrä said:

Neither Nellie nor McCabe never relied on Papa in the Box, so the recent changes are mostly positive from their point of view, and they do rank among the more powerful masters within the faction.

Except for the whole Austringer cuddle, which both certainly use.

Also Sonnia's been pretty much gutted; nothing compares to Papabox for her.

[Myyrä]

28 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Also Sonnia's been pretty much gutted; nothing compares to Papabox for her.

Papa without a box does.

[Surrealistik]

2 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Papa without a box does.

Not quite.

[Math Mathonwy]

On 1/1/2017 at 0:09 AM, Surrealistik said:

With the recent cuddles I think Guild is in serious jeopardy of either being underpowered or no longer among the truly competitive factions.

Losing Papabox and Austringer sniping/board control and getting nothing in return hurts.

I think that "getting nothing in return" sorta ignores Lucius and the Guardian, to say the least!

[trikk]

17 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Not quite.

Thats, like, your opinion

I played around 8 games with the new rules. A lot of them with Sonnia. No Papa Loco. Still very powerful. 0/1 austringer. Will test Loco build this week. Lucius and Guardian are big buffs

 

I think GG17 Cuddled Sonnia more than the errata TBH

[Myyrä]

12 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Not quite.

It definitely compares even if it isn't quite as good.

[trikk]

You usually need that buff for the beginning of turn 3. I also tested Envy and it went quite well

[Franchute]

Suppose you want to keep papa out of the box with Sonnia. What do you typically bring? Do you keep the death marshall? I was thinking that dogs might be useful for schemes like dig their graves or picking up heads. What do you think?

[Myyrä]

13 minutes ago, Franchute said:

Suppose you want to keep papa out of the box with Sonnia. What do you typically bring? Do you keep the death marshall? I was thinking that dogs might be useful for schemes like dig their graves or picking up heads. What do you think?

The DM doesn't really serve a purpose in that scenario. I would rather take Abuela to help keep Papa close to Sonnia when necessary and away from her when he isn't needed.

[JDAntoine]

@Franchute Currently I either bring Papa Loco with Numb to the World OR a Witchling Thrall. 

Currently the Death Marshal is removed from the bunch and what I feel like that day is added  

[Tris]

7 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

In actuality we already had those, and Guild wasn't in a problematic or dominant position between the time it acquired these new tools and the cuddle.

-> maybe because there was not much time in between? With no models (except if you bought them early at the event sales)

Except for the whole Austringer cuddle, which both certainly use.

-> everyone uses Austringers, that`s why they got a cuddle - but we are still fine with the downgraded version. And before someone asks: no, nobody can do the same as the old Austringers, but there is always another way to play the game.

Also Sonnia's been pretty much gutted; nothing compares to Papabox for her.

-> you can still get 2 focused shots very easy. And Sonnia still has great board control and enough plus flips to reliably hit - and heck, you can still take papa if you want to! (and again, to prevent argument on this point - I know it`s not the same as before, you have to watch for your activation order, but it`s close)

 So, I still think that we are not underpowered.

 

I don`t personally know why Guild seems to be so underrepresented in the big tournament scene, I can only guess that it has something to do with style and gameplay - Guild seems to be a "boring" faction with no special tricks up their sleeves - and reading battle reports about most of our masters like Perdita, Sonnia, Lady J, Hoffman seems to support that fact.

 

Now, I know that we have cool tricks, but you have to actually get in the faction and look for them, it`s not like with Neverborns, ressers, Gremlins for example - they actually look like they would do loads of crazy stuff and that`s what attracts people.

 

Also because of that I think that Guild might be a "Beginner friendly" faction - you start the game with the "cool Cowboys/Soldiers", you have no clue whatsoever about the game, go to a tournament, don`t do well and change to the faction which impressed you the most during the tournament - I think that could explain tournament results to a certain degree?

 

But now, we actually have some tricky masters in McCabe (okay, weh had him before) but also in Nellie (her box was not on general release up to now, but is scheduled for february - I expect to see her tournament appereance rise;) ) and the new Lucius (who has great popularity) so I hope it might get better

 

 

So, all of the above is just my opinion (as a long time player, shopkeeper and TO), I think Guild is a good faction and we got more toys to play with than ever before

[JDAntoine]

In retrospect it's very likely that at a given point the re-design of Lucius mend something else had to be changed aswell. Guild has recieved the most massive changes this edition likely due to how at the last point it was very much painted into a particular corner. I think all pieces that where directly changed remain totally viable. I do believe that the Death Marshal should have recieved a small bump in responce to Papa Box not being very interesting for him anymore and the transporting of Papa was an excellent and thus competative option.

As a Guild player I don't believe we are boring but I can understand as to why others would think this to be the case. Afterall Guild is likely the most vanilla flavoured of factions? 
No real scary monsters, no real scary machines, undead or demons? In any case my prime reason to pick Guild had much more to do with the symbol as anything else and I happened to stick with them basically...

What I do think is also the case is that most of the time we have to rely on Austringers to do the job well. There are no real 6 Scrip comparables anymore and those are the ones we are usually looking for. This is not to say we are an underpowered faction but this is to say that I do feel our competative choices arn't massive and in certain cases even exclusively competative to a single Master.

Top down, small opinion on all our models

Lady J - Cool design but M1E had a cooler model for her, in terms of Masters she doesn't really scare anyone as a 'beater Master'
Sonnia - Our Queen essentially, awesome but also very 'unique' to our faction. Unlike Rasputina we don't have a very flavourful competative theme open for her. Thralls certainly help...
Perdita - Love her design but also feels a bit like an odd one out in our faction  
McMourning - Practically more Resser as Guild, missed option to add Guild interactions with him by adding more 'Guild Coroner'
Hoffman - Practically more Arcanist as Guld, might recieve more robots
Lucius - Confirmed Neverborn in disguise
McCabe - Confirmed TT in disguise
Nellie - Love her design but is something totally 'new'

So in general I would say that Lady J and Nellie feel the most fitting to Guild and Dita and Sonnia most certainly are Guild aswell but in general the faction's identity is very mixed. Now this is certainly true for more factions but it also means that even within the Guild there are splinters who feel connected with something. Some Guild players for example don't even like Sonnia or Perdita....

I believe that the massive mix of characters generally removes some of the faction identity and because of that not too many players actually indentify with the faction, where with others you can for:
- Neverborn are neverborn, demons and 'monsters'
- Ressurectionists are ressurectionists, necromancers and undead
- Arcanists are arcanists, magic users and machines
- Gremlins are gremlins, pigs and funstuff
- Outcasts are a mixed bag of outlaws, casts and work for money
- Ten Thunders are ninja's, samurai and oni

So what is Guild? "anti of the above"? "The law"? I honestly can't really specifically say... 
 

[Wolfpact]

2 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

In retrospect it's very likely that at a given point the re-design of Lucius mend something else had to be changed aswell. Guild has recieved the most massive changes this edition likely due to how at the last point it was very much painted into a particular corner. I think all pieces that where directly changed remain totally viable. I do believe that the Death Marshal should have recieved a small bump in responce to Papa Box not being very interesting for him anymore and the transporting of Papa was an excellent and thus competative option.

As a Guild player I don't believe we are boring but I can understand as to why others would think this to be the case. Afterall Guild is likely the most vanilla flavoured of factions? 
No real scary monsters, no real scary machines, undead or demons? In any case my prime reason to pick Guild had much more to do with the symbol as anything else and I happened to stick with them basically...

What I do think is also the case is that most of the time we have to rely on Austringers to do the job well. There are no real 6 Scrip comparables anymore and those are the ones we are usually looking for. This is not to say we are an underpowered faction but this is to say that I do feel our competative choices arn't massive and in certain cases even exclusively competative to a single Master.

Top down, small opinion on all our models

Lady J - Cool design but M1E had a cooler model for her, in terms of Masters she doesn't really scare anyone as a 'beater Master'
Sonnia - Our Queen essentially, awesome but also very 'unique' to our faction. Unlike Rasputina we don't have a very flavourful competative theme open for her. Thralls certainly help...
Perdita - Love her design but also feels a bit like an odd one out in our faction  
McMourning - Practically more Resser as Guild, missed option to add Guild interactions with him by adding more 'Guild Coroner'
Hoffman - Practically more Arcanist as Guld, might recieve more robots
Lucius - Confirmed Neverborn in disguise
McCabe - Confirmed TT in disguise
Nellie - Love her design but is something totally 'new'

So in general I would say that Lady J and Nellie feel the most fitting to Guild and Dita and Sonnia most certainly are Guild aswell but in general the faction's identity is very mixed. Now this is certainly true for more factions but it also means that even within the Guild there are splinters who feel connected with something. Some Guild players for example don't even like Sonnia or Perdita....

I believe that the massive mix of characters generally removes some of the faction identity and because of that not too many players actually indentify with the faction, where with others you can for:
- Neverborn are neverborn, demons and 'monsters'
- Ressurectionists are ressurectionists, necromancers and undead
- Arcanists are arcanists, magic users and machines
- Gremlins are gremlins, pigs and funstuff
- Outcasts are a mixed bag of outlaws, casts and work for money
- Ten Thunders are ninja's, samurai and oni

So what is Guild? "anti of the above"? "The law"? I honestly can't really specifically say... 
 

Not a Guild player, here (though I've assembled and painted a few as a nephew of mine does, and because of him and my love of all things Western, I'm a fan of the Ortegas), but for what it's worth when describing the game I usually go with 'Evil, Fascistic  Imperialist Cowboy-Mages and Aristocrats, with a Few Decent Souls Working to Actually Do Good for the Common People."

Granted, that doesn't really fit onto a business card...

Or, less kindly 'The Rulers of Malifaux who are so hopelessly compromised by every other faction it's almost comical.' You know, the coroner they turned into a Ressurrectionist, the undertaker who is a leading Resurrectionist, the Thunders, Lucius... there's probably two gremlins in an overcoat in charge of an outpost near the Bayou..

[JDAntoine]

Exact, too many different individuals and it becomes difficult to identify.

This is totally different from being underpowered but could explain as to why players dont stick with Guild forever.

[Starrius]

do you think this is also shown in why they have shown in the other side that the guild have lost control?