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@JDAntoine I don't get your fixation on uniqueness. Hoffman is a guild master with an ability to hire arcanists. Anything he hires is a strong guild list and adds to our available arsenal. He also has different.combinations availablr than if you take the same model in arcanists.

Even if McMourning can be a resser too you can't disqualify him as a guild master. Likewise with McCabe. If you win a match playing a dual faction model delared as guild then guild is winning that match and has that option.

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12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@JDAntoine I don't get your fixation on uniqueness. Hoffman is a guild master with an ability to hire arcanists. Anything he hires is a strong guild list and adds to our available arsenal. He also has different.combinations availablr than if you take the same model in arcanists.

Even if McMourning can be a resser too you can't disqualify him as a guild master. Likewise with McCabe. If you win a match playing a dual faction model delared as guild then guild is winning that match and has that option.

It's not my fixation, it is a casual players usual fixation. I don't solely play Guild either but I understand how the lack of uniqueness causes players to leave the Guild (or not play it at all). The thing is that a lot of players indentify with a particular faction. If your faction doesn't have a particular identity a player who's looking for character will lose interest in a particular choice. I also play DND, RPGs and other games and have seen the same there aswell. Model identity/character is very important in keeping and attracting players.

In Warhammer you used to have mercenaries who where named Dogs of War, they where a collection of pirates, undead, ogres, zombies and all kinds of characters that usually do not connect with each other in a regular 'fantasy pop culture'. This faction was a rarity to be played. 
In Warmachine you used to have Mercenaries and Minions who couldn't be mixed, so again you where left with a small selection of choices, even certain Minion models where not accesable to Minions. As if Guild would have a Guild model that could not be taken in a Guild crew but could be taken in Ressurectionists or Neverborn (this actually is also the case with Malifaux). The result is that this faction still is a rarity to be seen. Players do not actively seek out a character that isn't unique. 

As it is now Guild actually is as 'multi-faction' as Ten Thunders is but it isn't clearly put onto the faction symbols printed on the cards. This can dissapoint you if your assumption was that Guild are 'witch hunters' which they technically arn't either. I cannot put a clear character on Guild and because of that I have trouble to identify what it's character should be. 

 

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1 minute ago, JDAntoine said:

It's not my fixation, it is a casual players usual fixation. I don't solely play Guild either but I understand how the lack of uniqueness causes players to leave the Guild (or not play it at all).
The thing is that a lot of players indentify with a particular faction. If your faction doesn't have a particular identity a player who's looking for character will lose interest in a particular choice.

I also play DND, RPGs and other games and have seen the same there aswell. In Warhammer you used to have mercenaries who where named Dogs of War, they where a collection of pirates, undead, ogres, zombies and all kinds of characters that usually do not connect with each other in a regular 'fantasy pop culture'. This faction was a rarity to be played. 
In Warmachine you used to have Mercenaries and Minions who couldn't be mixed, so again you where left with a small selection of choices, even certain Minion models where not accesable to Minions. As if Guild would have a Guild model that could not be taken in a Guild crew but could be taken in Ressurectionists or Neverborn. This faction still is a rarity to be seen.

As it is now Guild actually is as 'multi-faction' as Ten Thunders is but it isn't clearly put onto the faction symbols printed on the cards. This can dissapoint you if your assumption was that Guild are 'witch hunters' which they technically arn't either. 

McCabe uses strictly Guild models in Guild. McMourning has a totally different role in Guild. Hoffman doesn't need any arcanist models to function. Lucius is Lucius and I have no idea how we works in practice :P

 

The stats from the rankings don't show a singnificantly lower amount of Guild players from ither factions

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1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

I feel like we've heard the exact opposite from the designers;  that the main goal is faction to faction.    I would prefer master to master,  and I think factions with only one 1 competitive style end up being hurt by people being able to counter build to easily,  but my understanding was always that the goal was faction to faction balance. 

I have no idea what Aaron's personal philosophy is, though he did a lot of design work on wave 1 before being hired by Wyrd. The Goal of M2E, at least to this point is master to master balance. I was involved in all the open betas to a large degree, well, at least in offering opinions ;), and this is something I remember well in the transition. Faction to faction balance was the hallmark of 1st edition, and it's totally skewed in my opinion, and never worked well. Which to me is why I personally prefer to see master errata like what Lucius got. In an ideal world when you sit down to a game there should never be a time when you are like "phew it's X master, I've got game against this master." It should always be "^%$^ X master, I Hate X master." Overall I think they did a pretty good job, much better than last edition, but I do think there are some masters that are getting left behind with how their design philosophy has evolved, who also haven't gotten any real designed for options in awhile. Lady J could still use slight tweaks, but she at least got some really good options added for her in book 3 and 4.

Now if Aaron has changed the design goals of M2E, that's certainly his prerogative, but it is pretty well documented that one of the main design goals behind m2e was master to master balance, which I think should be the focus of rebalancing errata.

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1 hour ago, JDAntoine said:

It's not my fixation, it is a casual players usual fixation. I don't solely play Guild either but I understand how the lack of uniqueness causes players to leave the Guild (or not play it at all). The thing is that a lot of players indentify with a particular faction. If your faction doesn't have a particular identity a player who's looking for character will lose interest in a particular choice. I also play DND, RPGs and other games and have seen the same there aswell. Model identity/character is very important in keeping and attracting players.

In Warhammer you used to have mercenaries who where named Dogs of War, they where a collection of pirates, undead, ogres, zombies and all kinds of characters that usually do not connect with each other in a regular 'fantasy pop culture'. This faction was a rarity to be played. 
In Warmachine you used to have Mercenaries and Minions who couldn't be mixed, so again you where left with a small selection of choices, even certain Minion models where not accesable to Minions. As if Guild would have a Guild model that could not be taken in a Guild crew but could be taken in Ressurectionists or Neverborn (this actually is also the case with Malifaux). The result is that this faction still is a rarity to be seen. Players do not actively seek out a character that isn't unique. 

As it is now Guild actually is as 'multi-faction' as Ten Thunders is but it isn't clearly put onto the faction symbols printed on the cards. This can dissapoint you if your assumption was that Guild are 'witch hunters' which they technically arn't either. I cannot put a clear character on Guild and because of that I have trouble to identify what it's character should be. 

 

What about outcasts? I feel the same about them.

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Just now, Franchute said:

What about outcasts? I feel the same about them.

I call Outcasts half clean and half unclean, to separate the straightforward mercenaries and their simpler playstyles from the complicated pariahs. And it's the fans of the unclean/complicated who stayed loyal to Outcasts when last summer's errata hit them almost exclusively. Even the competitive sought to stay in faction with a sizable shift over to Jack Daw instead of defecting. Maybe the straightforward playstyle player doesn't develop faction loyalty in any faction and it isn't just a Guild problem.

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54 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

I call Outcasts half clean and half unclean, to separate the straightforward mercenaries and their simpler playstyles from the complicated pariahs. And it's the fans of the unclean/complicated who stayed loyal to Outcasts when last summer's errata hit them almost exclusively. Even the competitive sought to stay in faction with a sizable shift over to Jack Daw instead of defecting. Maybe the straightforward playstyle player doesn't develop faction loyalty in any faction and it isn't just a Guild problem.

Indeed. Outcasts do not have a true identity, but it is a popular faction.

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@JDAntoine Sorry, fixation may have been an unneccessarily value-loaded word. Thanks for explaining, I thought you were talking about straight up power level but you were more into emotional attachment to a faction it seems. :)  

I think outcasts have several very distinct subthemes that make no sense to mix: Hamelin has an entirely own list of models, Leveticus borrows from every faction and can't even stick to his own theme. I don't see why von Schill would lend his freikorps to necromancers and weird people who turn them into abominations. Outcasts are at the least three distinct subfactions.

Arcanists have M&SU, the cult of December and Marcus' own pet project. When reading stories I have seen more examples of December and M&SU fighting than working together so why should they work together in game? The M&SU also seems to have a lot of individuals challenging Ramos, at least Colette and Kaeris I believe are mentioned to try an break free from him, how is that different than the guild masters? How are animals and gamin more closely related than death marshals and guardsmen? Sandeep I have no idea of what he does and why he is considered as working towards the same goals as the others, he simply seems like anti-guild, not pro arcanist?

Ten Thunders also seem like a lot of the masters and themes are shoe-horned into the same faction. If Lynch and McCabe being blackmailed into working for them is reason enough to create a strong theme for TT then I don't see why someone infiltrating the guild and working towards their own agenda from within the current basis of power is so much stranger or unthematic. 

Neverborn are lumped together as some sort of amalgamation of all the creepy stuff the designers could think up. Nephilim and Nightmares seem like extremely different entities to me and probably aren't even related biologically. The different masters also seem to barely tolerate each others presence (when is Lynch even interacting with the others?!) Neverborn being a faction is about as specific as beings from earth including something not even human being a faction. The fae and Titania add another layer of kinda wtf stuff that seemingly has little to no relation to the other stuff.

 

On the guild side: McCabe could reasonably be considered a valueable asset to the guild as long as he gets the job done when asked to do stuff. I would say he fits better in guild than in TT since they seem to work on a family-tree basis for promoting their leadership. The guild is a sort of ragtag frontier law enforcement with extreme jurisdiction because Malifaux is not an ordered place. I totally get why different branches and strong individuals could recieve continued "trust" by the higher leadership since it would be a bigger hassle to have them turn against the governor general and bring a large chunk of the guard force with them since personal loyalty weighs heavier than loyalty to the law. That seems to me like a way soiceties have been organized throughout large parts of human history. In antique and medieval times the ruler of entire countries and empires were extremely dependent on personal loyalty and often couldn't openly challenge their rivals since no one could be very sure who would win, I see the guild as a similar political structure, wracked by internal power struggles. Model-wise, most of my guildies are humans and have cowboy hats, that's a lot more in common than dolls-nephilim-illuminated or animals, ice golems and gamin or monks and wastrels.

 

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1 hour ago, Franchute said:

What about outcasts? I feel the same about them.

Odd as it sounds, outcasts are outcasts and even that is a better classification.

Jokes aside the Outcasts all seem to do their work for the right price, which sometimes isn't scrip or soulstones ;) .  Law-less, boundless, mercenaries. 

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21 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

Odd as it sounds, outcasts are outcasts and even that is a better classification.

Jokes aside the Outcasts all seem to do their work for the right price, which sometimes isn't scrip or soulstones ;) .  Law-less, boundless, mercenaries. 

Von Schill seems to have a moral code and really care about his people. Jack is just a wandering spirit. Hamelin just wants to destroy all life.

This doesn`t make much sense to me. Justice rolling in with some Guild Guards, a Pathfinder and 2 of Hoffman`s Wardens seems easier to comprehend.

 

I for example have no idea why Lelu and Lilitu are Nephilim, Nightmare (and Woe I think) when the description clrearly shows they should be just Nephilim.

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@Ludvig I most certainly was referring to the emotional attachement, I believe this can be reinforced or lowered by the clear appearance or lack of specific unique character. I also see that several factions are connected better as Guild, one of the reasons is that the splinter factions within other factions differ way less from each other. Guild started out as the 'X-hunter' but eventually this was left out aswell. 

@trikk The way I see it Von Schill still hires his Freikorps to the highest bid, Jack Daw was the first hung outlaw/outcast and pre-Tyrant Hamelin was a typical outcast/low caste aswell :) Guild has anti-Undead (which isn't really reflected well), A witch hunter, Mexicans and Mixicans. 

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11 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

Depends on your definition of one dimensional, predictable, yes.

You literally cannot argue this, it's just false. Guild is absolutely in no way predictable.

Like I said before: 

When I go against guild, I have to prepare for EVERYTHING. I have to prepare for the "cross the board on turn 1 or immediately lose" scenario against Sonnia, for Perdita's mix of absurdly high stats, dangerous shooting, and even more dangerous melee, for Hoffman's ability to throw 2-3 of the most buffed-up, scariest, toughest beaters in the game WITH strong mobility, healing, and obey support. For McCabe's ability to send four tiny fast scheme runners out while still spending the bulk of his ss on core central models who he then buffs and fights alongside. And now for Nellie who will virtually never be out activated because she can delay her turn and effectively paralyze  (5" push plus slow is effectively paralysis) AND remove from objectives up to 2-3 models per turn, ensuring it is virtually impossible to score Extraction/Stash/etc against her. (Not to mention all the other ridiculous stuff she can do)

All of these end in completely different games and you need to be prepared for ALL of them.

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8 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

I most certainly was referring to the emotional attachement, I believe this can be reinforced or lowered by the clear appearance or lack of specific unique character. I also see that several factions are connected better as Guild, one of the reasons is that the splinter factions within other factions differ way less from each other. Guild started out as the 'X-hunter' but eventually this was left out aswell.

Oddly, I've always found the Guild to have the strongest thematic group identity.

Each Master has their area of speciality that is useful to the security of the organisation as a whole. Sonnia is the protector against arcane threats, Justice against necromancy, Perdita against the Neverborn, Hoffman against the emerging science of amalgamation, Nellie against public opinion. McCabe is useful for black ops and acquisitions, and Lucius provides central coordination and intel. They're a coherent organisation - with different departments, sure, but working cooperatively towards a common goal. It makes sense for them to share resources, personnel, and expertise.

The only one that doesn't really fit is McMourning, because he isn't at all aligned with the Guild's interests, only his own. His character has been so well established as a murderous egomaniacal lunatic that it would be difficult to give him convincing Guild-oriented motivations... but at least he does officially work for the Guild.

Collectively, they represent Authority, and all the good and bad that goes along with that. It can be a difficult or uncomfortable theme for people to connect to at times, but it's definitely there.

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4 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Oddly, I've always found the Guild to have the strongest thematic group identity.

Each Master has their area of speciality that is useful to the security of the organisation as a whole. Sonnia is the protector against arcane threats, Justice against necromancy, Perdita against the Neverborn, Hoffman against the emerging science of amalgamation, Nellie against public opinion. McCabe is useful for black ops and acquisitions, and Lucius provides central coordination and intel. They're a coherent organisation - with different departments, sure, but working cooperatively towards a common goal. It makes sense for them to share resources, personnel, and expertise.

The only one that doesn't really fit is McMourning, because he isn't at all aligned with the Guild's interests, only his own. His character has been so well established as a murderous egomaniacal lunatic that it would be difficult to give him convincing Guild-oriented motivations... but at least he does officially work for the Guild.

Collectively, they represent Authority, and all the good and bad that goes along with that. It can be a difficult or uncomfortable theme for people to connect to at times, but it's definitely there.

I think the issues that might be the problem is that all 3 dual faction masters are basically spies in the Guild. Lucius is way more Neverborn. McCabe holds allegiance to the TT and McMourning... well I think McMourning is not anti Guild or pro Resser. He just likes to do the psychopatic science stuff.

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I dont see it as an issue but even Hoffman goed both ways.

We have 3 dual masters, 5 who are essentially dual masters and 3 who arnt.

Out of the Guild subtypes only Family works out really well :)

As for predictability, I find them very predictable. Sonnia is our king, Dita the queen and we have several jacks. 

We dont have to agree. I only can comment on the data Ive seen and topic info.

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Well, Hoffman doesn`t go both ways really as he isn`t secretly plotting to destroy the Guild. In Ripples he helped Guild organize, tried to save lifes and is generally a good guy.

I wouldn`t put him in the same bag.

I think for example if McCabe would get revealed by Marlow and become a double agent I think it would increase his Guildness.

18 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

As for predictability, I find them very predictable. Sonnia is our king, Dita the queen and we have several jacks. 

We dont have to agree. I only can comment on the data Ive seen and topic info.

This works for almost every faction. Ramos, Marcus and Colette are way more often seen than Kaeris, Ironsides or Mei Feng

Shenlong, Misaki and McCabe are more often seen than Brewmaster or Yan Lo and probably Mei Feng

Viks, Hamelin and Jack are more often seen than Von Schill, Misaki and Tara

etc. etc. etc.

 

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16 minutes ago, trikk said:

Well, Hoffman doesn`t go both ways really as he isn`t secretly plotting to destroy the Guild. In Ripples he helped Guild organize, tried to save lifes and is generally a good guy.

 

I think for example if McCabe would get revealed by Marlow and become a double agent I think it would increase his Guildness.

This works for almost every faction. Ramos, Marcus and Colette are way more often seen than Kaeris, Ironsides or Mei Feng

Shenlong, Misaki and McCabe are more often seen than Brewmaster or Yan Lo and probably Mei Feng

Viks, Hamelin and Jack are more often seen than Von Schill, Misaki and Tara

etc. etc. etc.

 

We dont really know. Especially when we see how KE has gained power on Earthside there might be another reason for Hoffman to look at the Arcanist ways again. 
In addition Guild has called in another tech-head and I am uncertain how much Hoffman will like that :D .

As said we dont have to agree on the matters. Could go deep into it but I have Other things to do ;) .

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What I meant is more of a:

McMourning, McCabe and McLucius are ruthless bad people.

Hoffman is a good guy with moral code and respect for human life that wants to save his brother.

 

While he might go more or less Arcanist he definitely can`t be put with the others.

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

I think the issues that might be the problem is that all 3 dual faction masters are basically spies in the Guild. Lucius is way more Neverborn. McCabe holds allegiance to the TT and McMourning... well I think McMourning is not anti Guild or pro Resser. He just likes to do the psychopatic science stuff.

I would have said that Lucius is way more pro-Lucius - his schemes are all to further his own interest, and he does that by playing the Guild and the Neverborn off against each other.

Both the Guild and the Thunders have leverage over McCabe, who is basically just doing everything he can to avoid outliving his usefulness to either side. It's true that the Guild don't necessarily know about his involvement with the Thunders (though I bet Lucius does...) but that doesn't stop him serving their interests.

I think those elements actually make the Authority theme more well-rounded. Any authoritarian organisation will inevitably produce corruption, and the Guild are no exception. Authority can be used in both idealistic and selfish ways, and the Guild Masters are all aspects of a morally complex institution. I vastly prefer that to having them all be "good guys" or "bad guys". :)

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I didn`t mean to make them good or bad. I meant for them to work more in the Guild interest than they usually do. I think Lucius plays Guild way more than he plays Neverborn. Same with McCabe. He basically killed Governor General etc. I find he`s working for the TT but all he does in Guild interest is the minimum to not blow his cover.

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6 minutes ago, trikk said:

I didn`t mean to make them good or bad. I meant for them to work more in the Guild interest than they usually do.

Okay, but then:

45 minutes ago, trikk said:

What I meant is more of a:

McMourning, McCabe and McLucius are ruthless bad people.

Hoffman is a good guy with moral code and respect for human life that wants to save his brother. While he might go more or less Arcanist he definitely can`t be put with the others.

Not sure that came across right. :P

Lucius probably had been playing the Guild more than the Neverborn, simply because the Governor General was the greater force holding him back. Now that Titania is in the picture, Lucius seems pretty intent on screwing up her plans too. McCabe may have spent years setting up the Governor for a fall, but basically everything else he did in that time was in service to the Guild since he couldn't risk blowing his cover. Again, the Governor was the one who had the most leverage over him... now that he's out of the way, I'd expect to see McCabe doing his best to get out from under the Thunders' thumb as well. The reason we haven't seen either of them betraying their other Faction up to this point is because they've never really done anything with their other Faction.

Ultimately, every Faction has Masters with divided loyalties who may end up advancing or hindering the Faction's goals (if that Faction even has goals - the Gremlins, Ressers and Outcasts basically don't, which I'd say makes them far less closely tied than the Guild). I'm still not sure why you think the Guild is particularly unusual in that regard?

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I think it's really reaching to call Nellie "essentially" dual faction just because she, kinda, sorta, has Infiltration(Mercenary). She isn't getting access to any models that isn't available to every other master in the game. And while she is a sellout in the stories there hasn't been any indication she is a fickle sellout that will switch allegiances as soon as a higher bidder comes along.

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14 minutes ago, Bengt said:

I think it's really reaching to call Nellie "essentially" dual faction just because she, kinda, sorta, has Infiltration(Mercenary). She isn't getting access to any models that isn't available to every other master in the game. And while she is a sellout in the stories there hasn't been any indication she is a fickle sellout that will switch allegiances as soon as a higher bidder comes along.

I think people misinterpret Nellie. While she is obliged to not reveal Guild dirty secrets, everything she writes about Arcanists etc. is true. For example the story about Phiona which brought her the job was entirely true and thats why Arcanist thugs wanted to hurt her.

She`s not dual faction. And even less Dual Faction (Outcasts). 

21 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Okay, but then:

Not sure that came across right. :P

Lucius probably had been playing the Guild more than the Neverborn, simply because the Governor General was the greater force holding him back. Now that Titania is in the picture, Lucius seems pretty intent on screwing up her plans too. McCabe may have spent years setting up the Governor for a fall, but basically everything else he did in that time was in service to the Guild since he couldn't risk blowing his cover. Again, the Governor was the one who had the most leverage over him... now that he's out of the way, I'd expect to see McCabe doing his best to get out from under the Thunders' thumb as well. The reason we haven't seen either of them betraying their other Faction up to this point is because they've never really done anything with their other Faction.

Ultimately, every Faction has Masters with divided loyalties who may end up advancing or hindering the Faction's goals (if that Faction even has goals - the Gremlins, Ressers and Outcasts basically don't, which I'd say makes them far less closely tied than the Guild). I'm still not sure why you think the Guild is particularly unusual in that regard?

Well, tbh your post about how GG was holding all of them on a leash kind of convinced me its not that bad. I think Marlow might also be problematic to Lucius, so I don`t know if will consider him more of threat than Titania. If McCabe would talk with Marlow and start plotting against TT in favor of Guild that would redeem him in my eyes. Right now he`s a traitor so I don`t play him :D

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