Levi + rat engine = NPE

[Bodiless]

27 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Unless you play Close Deployment or sometimes Flank Deployment there is no chance Levi or Viks should be able to grab you on turn 1 unless you push recklessly your models to close to them.

Hmm. Levi + Oathkeeper + A&D + Scout/Scramble can put Levi roughly 21" up the board with 2 AP left unless I have my math wrong. Double walk for 8, bounce to the other side of A&D's base for 10"+80mm for the two bases. That's enough to charge something in the opposing deployment zone. 

[trikk]

Viks with Student can also do it. 2x sisters in spirit is around 12" +Walk 5" + Charge 8" + range 2" += 27"

[daniello_s]

Ban Levi, A&D and Viks sling-shot as well

[Myth]

2 hours ago, Bodiless said:

I have to say, a lot of the suggestions I have seen for dealing with this sort of fall into this category. Yes, some things might work... IF your opponent is paying absolutely no attention to what you are doing, doesn't make even the most minimal adjustment to their plans required to stop it, and is playing more or less mindlessly. Most people don't need advice on how to deal with that situation, rat engine or not. In the game that I started this thread for, the person I was playing against wins most of our games already, although they are generally close. Giving him the opportunity to watch me take my entire turn before committing anything meant that neither of us found the game interesting. 

Even for a skilled player, seeing what you have planned vs finding a way to adjust around it are not always the same thing. If you see the opponent has Ashes and Dust, plus a Rogue Necromancy, and is planning to rush them at you at the end of the round, blocking lanes with terrain (via Lilith) and sacrificial models will significantly limit their options. (Unless the board is sparse on terrain, which is a completely different issue.) I know that the idea of spending turn 1 only very cautiously moving forward seems like ceding a big advantage to an opponent (especially if it is one who already tends to have the edge in games). 

But remember - investing in the rat engine is an expenditure of resources on the opponents behalf. If it doesn't reap him massive payout on turn one, then you now have the advantage of a more complete crew, and one that, on turn 2, is likely in prime position to counter-attack against an enemy force that is now potentially more spread out than your own.

Or, yes, perhaps your opponent may develop some clever strategy that keeps the advantage to them. But that's getting entirely into theory at that point, and the same argument could be made regardless of list and crew.

Again, there are many abilities/combos/tricks in Malifaux that seem absolutely brutal the first time runs into them. This is certainly in the top tier among them. But that doesn't mean that playing against such a list is hopeless, or that there is truly nothing one can do against it.

[trikk]

15 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Ban Levi, A&D and Viks sling-shot as well

If being sarcastic is your only response to being shown that its possible then theres no point in continuing the discussion TBH.

[Myth]

21 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

Hmm. Levi + Oathkeeper + A&D + Scout/Scramble can put Levi roughly 21" up the board with 2 AP left unless I have my math wrong. Double walk for 8, bounce to the other side of A&D's base for 10"+80mm for the two bases. That's enough to charge something in the opposing deployment zone. 

That is a lot of upgrades invested in getting a turn 1 charge from Levi, and one that leaves him potentially quite exposed at the top of turn 2.

That's the real thing about the alpha strike tactic - it is a gamble. If it works, it can be devastating. But if you are forced to unload into lesser targets, and then all your big models get taken out in retaliation, then that can lose you the match just as quickly. Levi has some wriggle room due to his respawn capacity, but it is still a big hit for him to get killed before he can activate in a turn - especially if his big models are dying and his respawn locations are being limited.

[Bodiless]

16 minutes ago, Myth said:

That is a lot of upgrades invested in getting a turn 1 charge from Levi, and one that leaves him potentially quite exposed at the top of turn 2.

That's the real thing about the alpha strike tactic - it is a gamble. If it works, it can be devastating. But if you are forced to unload into lesser targets, and then all your big models get taken out in retaliation, then that can lose you the match just as quickly. Levi has some wriggle room due to his respawn capacity, but it is still a big hit for him to get killed before he can activate in a turn - especially if his big models are dying and his respawn locations are being limited.

It's only two 1-pt upgrades (if you go with Scout rather than Scramble) that people frequently take on those models anyway. And Levi and Ashes both have that wiggle room, since not only do you need to kill A&D in your next turn before it does much damage you need to kill off the core or dust storm. All of which comes after eating an alpha strike and your opponent presumably picking a spot to attack where you will have trouble retaliating. Or at least that is what happened to me. 

Have you gone up against this particular combination yourself? If so, what did you use against it and how did it come out?

[daniello_s]

28 minutes ago, trikk said:

If being sarcastic is your only response to being shown that its possible then theres no point in continuing the discussion TBH.

Sling shooting Viks were know for a long time.

Levi + A&D combo was known for long time.

Rat Engine was known for long time.

But recently some people are demonizing those above because someone won the tournament or two. Surely it is strong stuff but people need to learn how to tackle it and then it won't be that massive problem. 

[chryspainthemum]

46 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Ban Levi, A&D and Viks sling-shot as well

The point is obviously not that they can do it turn 1. The point is that after ratjoy has removed a key piece and taken up resources in such a way that you cannot respond, they can use the rest of their master. Or hell, no ratjoy: should any given outcast master be able to outactivate a whole crew for roughly 10ss? That's the key thing, and something that people seem to be refusing to answer.

[Bodiless]

1 minute ago, daniello_s said:

But recently some people are demonizing those above because someone won the tournament or two. Surely it is strong stuff but people need to learn how to tackle it and then it won't be that massive problem. 

This seems to assume that Wyrd never puts anything into the game that later turns out to be problematic, and that the solution to any problematic model or combination of models is l2p. Except that there is quite a long list of errata'd models and combinations that says yes, in fact, things do sometimes slip through. I firmly believe at this point that this is one of those things.

[daniello_s]

3 minutes ago, chryspainthemum said:

The point is obviously not that they can do it turn 1. The point is that after ratjoy has removed a key piece and taken up resources in such a way that you cannot respond, they can use the rest of their master. Or hell, no ratjoy: should any given outcast master be able to outactivate a whole crew for roughly 10ss? That's the key thing, and something that people seem to be refusing to answer.

Then look at the Gremlins who can out-activate you easily and then Ophelia + Francisco can kill two of your models easily (especially with their Kin-related moving shenanigans) putting you on your back-foot heavily next turn. Should Gremlins be able to out-activate you and then put enormous damage with their remaining models?

[chryspainthemum]

5 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Then look at the Gremlins who can out-activate you easily and then Ophelia + Francisco can kill two of your models easily (especially with their Kin-related moving shenanigans) putting you on your back-foot heavily next turn. Should Gremlins be able to out-activate you and then put enormous damage with their remaining models?

Example of a list that can run enough pigs/gremlins to outactivate a crew before moving any significant pieces for ~ 10ss? I very rarely see gremlins so I'm not sure how they do this to begin the game.

[Myth]

23 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

It's only two 1-pt upgrades (if you go with Scout rather than Scramble) that people frequently take on those models anyway. And Levi and Ashes both have that wiggle room, since not only do you need to kill A&D in your next turn before it does much damage you need to kill off the core or dust storm. All of which comes after eating an alpha strike and your opponent presumably picking a spot to attack where you will have trouble retaliating. Or at least that is what happened to me. 

Have you gone up against this particular combination yourself? If so, what did you use against it and how did it come out?

Ah, thought you were suggesting all three of those upgrades on Levi, not a combination of the two. Also, I'll say that my greatest success with A&D is to not deal with it, but focus on everything else first. Try and keep A&D occupied by something tanky, in a place where it can't spam its AoE, and you can keep it in check a bit more than someone like Nekima.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue that the rat engine is a balanced part of the game, or that the game wouldn't be improved by fixing it. I just don't think it is insurmountable. The times I've seen alpha strikes (of this or other similar lists) in action, sometimes they've succeeded, sometimes they've failed.

Games where I've seen it fail:
-A McMourning crew used some movement tricks (Mortimer) to launch his entirely crew halfway up the board, then got a bunch of poison and poison-boosting-effects on the crew. If rats activated, they would die and turn into dogs. McMourning used the rest of his resources (SS, cards) just keeping his key models alive, and was easily in place to win by the end of the round.

-I was running an Outcast crew (possibly Tara?) that had Vanessa with a Howling Wolf Tattoo, and was super heavy on cheap flurrying/rapid-firing models. When I realized I was in for an alpha-strike, I just clustered up in a spot with limited access points, and filled those with Ronin (who can't be charged). The enemy still was able to get to the Ronin and kill two of them, but that was a pretty acceptable loss on my part, and I had enough firepower to burn them down the next round in response.

-One match against Levi, I had a very durable front-line. I had a couple durable soul-stone users (including Hannah) up front and in cover, with Sue hidden behind them providing his anti-casting aura. Levi struggled against the Sue/Hannah combo. Ashes and Dust and Killjoy charged in and made a bunch of attacks, but I was able to dodge a few via defensive and good cards, and mitigate the rest via armor and soulstones. I made an easy kill of killjoy the next turn, put pressure on Levi's waifs via snipers, and basically weathered/ignored Ashes and Dust until I had control of the board.

Will those tactics (aggression; sacrifice; survival) work every time? Certainly not. And a lot does come down to the specific crews and schemes and strategies.

[zeeblee]

How many of the proposed solutions to fighting against the rat engine won't cripple your ability to accomplish schemes/strats and also still prepare for non-rat engine crews? Does preparing for the engine create problems if your opponent ends up fielding something else?

[Ryin]

yeah, I had a flesh construct keep A&D basically useless for three turns.

Couple of Depleted might not be a bad choice when facing outcasts and you suspect ractivation.

[TeddyBear]

Could someone explain to me please (if he wants) of what you are talking in simple words??
I understood only that there is a special list that annihilates all the others?

[Myth]

6 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Could someone explain to me please (if he wants) of what you are talking in simple words??
I understood only that there is a special list that annihilates all the others?

Basically, an Outcast player can take an Obedient Wretch (a 4 SS model), and 2-3 Malifaux Rats (2 SS each). The Obedient Wretch can create more rats on turn 1 (potentially via Crows in hand, potentially by sacrificing itself). Once you have at least 4 rats, they can each activate in order, using careful positioning so that they are only clustered for the final rat's activation. At that point, the rats have an ability where they are sacrificed and become a Rat King (an 8 SS) model. The Rat King then activates, and has the ability to sacrifice itself and turn into a Rat Catcher (a 6 SS model) and a new Malifaux Rat, each of whom can now activate in turn.

At the end of this, you've turned 8-10 SS into 6-8 SS of models, but have also used up 8-10 activations, and the opponent has likely finished activating all their models for the turn. You now are free to activate the rest of your crew without the opponent having any way to respond.

Typically, the rest of the list is focused on high-mobility, high-lethality models, and investing the resources in models and upgrades that can let your big impact models try and get to the enemy on turn 1. Or start positioning and working on schemes and getting a big jump on the enemy. The Viks and Leveticus are popular for this. Killjoy is often taken since you can pop him up in the enemy deployment zone by sending forward a sacrificial rat. Etc.

If everything falls properly into place, you have 2-3 big models hitting the enemy with multiple attacks - and then, depending on who wins Initiative on round 2, perhaps doing it again. That can leave an unprepared crew close to wiped out before they really have a chance to respond.

The current thread is discussing what options (if any) one might be able to take when facing this strategy, especially since lists of this sort have apparently been popular in several recent tournaments.

[Adran]

15 hours ago, chryspainthemum said:

Example of a list that can run enough pigs/gremlins to outactivate a crew before moving any significant pieces for ~ 10ss? I very rarely see gremlins so I'm not sure how they do this to begin the game.

Pigapult - 5 stuffed pigs, Sommer, family tree, 3 bayou gremlins, Killjoy, slop hauler. Skeetar. 

Can easily do 15 activations before you unbury killjoy, the last of which puts Killjoy anywhere within 25" of the pigapult all ready to activate. I've faced this list and variations on it over the last couple of years. (Lenny is able to replace the pigapult if you wanted to do it just from the first book, but you are restricted in the straight line of his push rather than the place of the pigapult ). yes it is very 1 dimensional, and only has 3 "scary" threats. You could lower your activation count to add an extra threat like Francois. 

Is it as effiecient as the outcast version? probably not.it has  But it also can stop the outcast version dead in its tracks. And it is probably harder to stop. 

 

Most Malifaux crews expect to have 8-10 activation's in the first turn (basing this number on a combination of my games, and Before we begin podcast). And when you build a crew that has 10-12 activation's, you are expecting to have at least 2 back to back activations at the end of the turn where the opponent won't be able to react. The Rat engine is just the "new" way found to alter this in your favour. It is more efficient that most in the number of activation it has for its cost, but I still argue that most  of the time, the fact you have 8 activation's more than your opponent in the first turn is not hugely stronger than you having 2 activation's more than your opponent. Its advantage is in that if your opponent had a similar plan to out activate you, they probably still won't be able to and have to change their plans. 

 

 

[daniello_s]

Two Rooster Riders can wreck the chaos among Rat Engine easily on turn 1 as well.

[TeddyBear]

10 hours ago, Myth said:

Basically, an Outcast player can take an Obedient Wretch (a 4 SS model), and 2-3 Malifaux Rats (2 SS each). The Obedient Wretch can create more rats on turn 1 (potentially via Crows in hand, potentially by sacrificing itself). Once you have at least 4 rats, they can each activate in order, using careful positioning so that they are only clustered for the final rat's activation. At that point, the rats have an ability where they are sacrificed and become a Rat King (an 8 SS) model. The Rat King then activates, and has the ability to sacrifice itself and turn into a Rat Catcher (a 6 SS model) and a new Malifaux Rat, each of whom can now activate in turn.

At the end of this, you've turned 8-10 SS into 6-8 SS of models, but have also used up 8-10 activations, and the opponent has likely finished activating all their models for the turn. You now are free to activate the rest of your crew without the opponent having any way to respond.

Typically, the rest of the list is focused on high-mobility, high-lethality models, and investing the resources in models and upgrades that can let your big impact models try and get to the enemy on turn 1. Or start positioning and working on schemes and getting a big jump on the enemy. The Viks and Leveticus are popular for this. Killjoy is often taken since you can pop him up in the enemy deployment zone by sending forward a sacrificial rat. Etc.

If everything falls properly into place, you have 2-3 big models hitting the enemy with multiple attacks - and then, depending on who wins Initiative on round 2, perhaps doing it again. That can leave an unprepared crew close to wiped out before they really have a chance to respond.

The current thread is discussing what options (if any) one might be able to take when facing this strategy, especially since lists of this sort have apparently been popular in several recent tournaments.

Many Thanks!

[Math Mathonwy]

20 hours ago, daniello_s said:

But recently some people are demonizing those above because someone won the tournament or two. Surely it is strong stuff but people need to learn how to tackle it and then it won't be that massive problem. 

So essentially you're saying that it is impossible to have a problematic interaction or model in this game? All the errata that has been done has been unnecessary. Even first edition Nico Dog list was just fine and dandy (if you don't know what I'm talking about, it resulted in you having over 100 models on the table) and people just should've l2p.

Your suggestions so far in the thread have been using Gremlins or Colette (and also making sure that your opponent is too dim to hide his Rat Engine if he sees a super fast threat on the other side of the board) but I'm not sure that it's good for the game if everyone needs to start playing three of the seven factions and only very specific lists in them. (Not to mention that I'm not at all convinced that your suggestions truly are solutions - they might work against people who don't know what they're doing or if you have fantastic luck but in general they don't seem too good. Still, haven't tested so maybe they are a silver bullet and two Roosters completely ruins Ratjoy).

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Pigapult - 5 stuffed pigs, Sommer, family tree, 3 bayou gremlins, Killjoy, slop hauler. Skeetar. 

Can easily do 15 activations before you unbury killjoy, the last of which puts Killjoy anywhere within 25" of the pigapult all ready to activate. I've faced this list and variations on it over the last couple of years. (Lenny is able to replace the pigapult if you wanted to do it just from the first book, but you are restricted in the straight line of his push rather than the place of the pigapult ). yes it is very 1 dimensional, and only has 3 "scary" threats. You could lower your activation count to add an extra threat like Francois. 

Is it as effiecient as the outcast version? probably not.it has  But it also can stop the outcast version dead in its tracks. And it is probably harder to stop. 

Somer and Pigapult as threats are really, really far from Levi, Viks, and A&D. People don't seem to have problems with Ratjoy in Hamelin crews and similarly I don't believe that a problem exists in the Somer Killpult list because they lack the raw punch which is needed to make sure that the enemy is unable to retaliate with enough force to repel the alpha strike. Because, let's face, Ratjoy means that you get your Master and a bit above 20 Stones worth of models against the whole of the enemy crew. So those models better have the resources to make a big dent. But of course Levi and Viks are about the killiest Masters this game has.

Quote

The Rat engine is just the "new" way found to alter this in your favour. It is more efficient that most in the number of activation it has for its cost

It's possible to get infinite Activations from Skeeters turning Skeeters into Skeeters but that won't work in practice. Is there something that I'm missing that is even close to the efficiency of the Ratjoy when it comes to getting Activations for a really low cost (in in-game resources)?

[Adran]

I'm still basing my opinion on out activating with 2 extra activations is about as good as out activating with 10 extra activations. And so, most of the efficiency of activations in the ratjoy is pointless. 

So no, I don't know of anything that is close to the potential number of activations that you can get with Ratjoy. But that isn't really where its power it. Because if your model is activating after my crew and not actually hurting my game, then it doesn't really help that it activated and I couldn't retaliate. When turn 2 happens I will have a chance to activate before it goes, so you can't really leave it somewhere in danger after the activation anyway.  

But facing Pigapult and 5 stuffed pigs means that you have no way to protect your crew on the first turn (if you lose deployment), and typically the rest of the gremlin crew will activate after you have, leading you into a similar situation as you have against extreme ratjoy. And gremlins can field killers on par with Levi and the Viks (Both of whom are actually quite at risk to a pigapult). Put saddle on Gracie, Ophielia and Francois, and a few young/bayou gremlins, and you will be able wait until most of your opponents crew has activated before you move up and attack. And I believe that this is probably about as threatening a list as the various Outcast ones.  

 

[trikk]

Well, your proposed list doesn`t have neither Francois nor Gracie nor Ophelia. 

 

The RatJoy list I created based on Icemyn`s Adepticon list has: 15 + KJ turn 1.

2 Viks, Wretch, 4 rats, Nix, Student of Conflict +

2 rats from Obedient, 1 Rat King, 1 Rat catcher, 2 of reactivated rat + KJ

[daniello_s]

48 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

So essentially you're saying that it is impossible to have a problematic interaction or model in this game? All the errata that has been done has been unnecessary. Even first edition Nico Dog list was just fine and dandy (if you don't know what I'm talking about, it resulted in you having over 100 models on the table) and people just should've l2p.

Your suggestions so far in the thread have been using Gremlins or Colette (and also making sure that your opponent is too dim to hide his Rat Engine if he sees a super fast threat on the other side of the board) but I'm not sure that it's good for the game if everyone needs to start playing three of the seven factions and only very specific lists in them. (Not to mention that I'm not at all convinced that your suggestions truly are solutions - they might work against people who don't know what they're doing or if you have fantastic luck but in general they don't seem too good. Still, haven't tested so maybe they are a silver bullet and two Roosters completely ruins Ratjoy).

Erratas and fixing problems with some models/rules are always welcome as long as it is justified.

As for more suggestions how to possible tackle the Ratjoy (apart of Gremlins and Arcanists):

- Guild: Sonnia + Malifaux Child blocking the approaches with their firewalls

- Neverborn: Lilith + 2x Waldgeist - similar approach to the above, Dreamer and his Day Dreams to block approaches

- Outcasts: Hans with Scout the Field, Freikorps Trappers, Levi+A&D, Ronins/Desperate Mercs blocking approaches, Hamelin + Rusty and their charge-denial auras

- TT: Katanaka Snipers

- Ressers: loads of cheap minions/summons to block approaches 

 

 

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Erratas and fixing problems with some models/rules are always welcome as long as it is justified.

- Guild: Sonnia + Malifaux Child blocking the approaches with their firewalls

I actually thought about the same thing but I would probably (depending on terrain) put the wall as close as possible to Sonnia and other crucial models.

 

As for the rat engine. If its OP or not is one thing. I would just errata it for being boring If I want to wait 20 mins til my opponent finishes his turn I can go play 40k