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Levi + rat engine = NPE


Bodiless

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17 hours ago, chryspainthemum said:

I think you're missing that the Ratjoy bomb has a range of 'the board' essentially, meaning he WILL bomb your Nekima or whatever other model he chooses. 

First, let me say that I think the rat engine is broken. Thought so from the first time I read it. It's obviously bonkers to get that many activations for 8 SS. Under-costed by a massive margin. I think it should have been Cuddled yesterday :)

My questions is whether my current "OP" list has game against RatJoy.

To your point, I do understand the RatJoy range is huge (5 wk 5 walks), but the rat isn't unimpeded, neither is KJ, and the board will have terrain. I'm not saying I can stop it for sure, but I definitely think it is in the realm of possibility :) Board dependent, for sure (we use enough terrain that flight is a very strong ability, thus my preference for Nekima over Teddy).

Also, KJ doesn't reliably ace Nekima in 4 attacks when you have soulstones and draw 10 discard 4. Perfect play on the Nekima player's part will keep her alive most times. That said, most players don't cheat/stone perfectly, even really good players. It's hard to get right!

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Like I said in that same post: this is all theoryfaux and it's hard to say anything conclusive until you play against an experienced player running the list. That said, if killing Nekima seems difficult, they'd go for the Doppel, who is much easier than Nekima and essentially halves the list's damage (not to mention the inability to cheat initiative). Maybe the list could work, maybe not, but I run a similar Pandora list (though I generally prefer Lilith due to her greater utility, I've been forcing myself to learn Pandora) and atm I'm thinking rats + Viks wins.

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Remember that rat engine can rev the engine for four to six activations without committing and seeing whether you're about to turtle or not. If you're turtling, he can save the proper outactivation engine (Rat King to Rat Catcher) for the next turn.

Another very important point is that if you have faced Ratjoy with Hamelin you do not really know what it is that upsets people. Hamelin was tested extensively with this combo and full on outactivation and he is balanced around it. Viks and Levi are not. They are very, very different from Hamelin.

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Well, the meanest Rat engine I heard about is:

Viktoria Of Ashes -- 7ss
 +Sisters In Fury - 2ss
 +Sisters In Spirit - 1ss

Malifaux Child - 2ss

Killjoy - 12ss
 +Oathkeeper - 1ss

3x Malifaux Rat - 2ss

Nix - 8ss
 +Infectious Melodies - 1ss

Obedient Wretch - 4ss

Viktoria Of Blood - 0ss
 +Mark Of Shez'uul - 2ss
 +Oathkeeper - 1ss
 

You still have 10SS left

Nix uses Infectious melodies on the rat that comes out of the rat king to give it fast. So you have 4 rats move, then the ratking spli and the rat with reactivate has a walk in his first activation and 3 in his reactivate which means KJ can be popped 20" away.

 

The Viks can be replaced with Leveticus.

 

Edit: Nix can get Hollow if you play vs Sonnia/Guild so the rat engine is not vaporized.

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10 minutes ago, trikk said:

Well, the meanest Rat engine I heard about is:

Viktoria Of Ashes -- 7ss
 +Sisters In Fury - 2ss
 +Sisters In Spirit - 1ss

Malifaux Child - 2ss

Killjoy - 12ss
 +Oathkeeper - 1ss

3x Malifaux Rat - 2ss

Nix - 8ss
 +Infectious Melodies - 1ss

Obedient Wretch - 4ss

Viktoria Of Blood - 0ss
 +Mark Of Shez'uul - 2ss
 +Oathkeeper - 1ss
 

You still have 10SS left

Nix uses Infectious melodies on the rat that comes out of the rat king to give it fast. So you have 4 rats move, then the ratking spli and the rat with reactivate has a walk in his first activation and 3 in his reactivate which means KJ can be popped 20" away.

 

The Viks can be replaced with Leveticus.

Bring Pigapult... Oh wait... You are not Gremlin ;)

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10 minutes ago, bertmac said:

Collodi pure puppet list could work. Think my mate had 13 activations and killjoy with slow and 1ap being controlled by collodi makes him not so scary.

Trikks list above has 14 activations before Killjoy hits the table, so Collodi will have activated without being able to make Killjoy slow. 

So you will still have to cope with the bomb. Its not impossible, but you probably aren't going to stop it hitting that way.  (plus Killjoys first AP has to be a charge, so even if Collodi controls it, it will still have to charge something, and it probably will have to be something from collodis crew)

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9 minutes ago, Adran said:

Trikks list above has 14 activations before Killjoy hits the table, so Collodi will have activated without being able to make Killjoy slow. 

So you will still have to cope with the bomb. Its not impossible, but you probably aren't going to stop it hitting that way.  (plus Killjoys first AP has to be a charge, so even if Collodi controls it, it will still have to charge something, and it probably will have to be something from collodis crew)

a htk 3stone minion?

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One of Collodis triggers allows him to control the first AP of a model when it next activates. (another makes that model slow, so he can make the model only have 1 Ap, and having it controlled by him, which is very handy)

And, yes, you can just feed him marionettes, but its got you relying on Initiative to keep Killjoy from running wild. 

How the game would go would probably depend on board and schemes, but with 13 activation collodi isn't going to easily stop Killjoy charging into it on the first turn and potentially removing 3 models. 

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Bring shooters, start shooting rats in his backfield. Anytime i hear outcasts, i bring shooters. Bring friekorp trappers, if you have too. Its 14 pts. If you don't have that, push your regular shooters forward make them the target the rats. Spread out, so if you can't kill the rats, Killjoy and the Viks don't punish you to badly.The majority of their list is the killjoy bomb. Make them pay for it. Take Aionus and kill Killjoy before he gets unburied. If not just kill the rats. If killjoy isn't close enough to charge you, he has to charge his own crew. It's a one trick pony. Play some "friendly" games against it

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11 minutes ago, kross1 said:

Take Aionus and kill Killjoy before he gets unburied. 

How does that work? I mean, with Colette, sure, it's possible I suppose, but otherwise it seems a tad unlikely.

11 minutes ago, kross1 said:

If killjoy isn't close enough to charge you, he has to charge his own crew.

This doesn't seem likely a likely outcome unless your opponent is a complete nincompoop.

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1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

This doesn't seem likely a likely outcome unless your opponent is a complete nincompoop.

I gave you a like for using the term "nincompoop" ;)

 

Aionus with Prompt might be able to kill KJ, but thats like 6 min damage attacks required and you have to hit all of them. Collette would probably have to reactivate him or you would have to kill a performer next to Collette.

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11 minutes ago, trikk said:

Aionus with Prompt might be able to kill KJ, but thats like 6 min damage attacks required and you have to hit all of them. Collette would probably have to reactivate him or you would have to kill a performer next to Collette.

If you had RJ you could Focus and get a cheatable damage flip. But yeah, Colette would indeed have a hard time of it and it would be downright impossible for basically everyone else (I suppose you could have several sources of Obey and then Obey him to both Focus and then hit and have good luck with Severes on damage flips or something but I wouldn't suggest that as a possible solution!).

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11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

This doesn't seem likely a likely outcome unless your opponent is a complete nincompoop.

I have to say, a lot of the suggestions I have seen for dealing with this sort of fall into this category. Yes, some things might work... IF your opponent is paying absolutely no attention to what you are doing, doesn't make even the most minimal adjustment to their plans required to stop it, and is playing more or less mindlessly. Most people don't need advice on how to deal with that situation, rat engine or not. In the game that I started this thread for, the person I was playing against wins most of our games already, although they are generally close. Giving him the opportunity to watch me take my entire turn before committing anything meant that neither of us found the game interesting. 

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25 minutes ago, kross1 said:

While its unlikely that Aionus will kill Killjoy, he can wound him to the point one of your other models can take him out with minimal effort when he does appear.

When? You've been outactivated, that's the point. And then when you do, they still have Levi or Viks to remove the rest of your crew. People seem to be missing the point here. Ratjoy is not op. Any outcast master being able to break a core component of the game, activations, for ~10ss is op.

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9 minutes ago, chryspainthemum said:

When? You've been outactivated, that's the point. And then when you do, they still have Levi or Viks to remove the rest of your crew. People seem to be missing the point here. Ratjoy is not op. Any outcast master being able to break a core component of the game, activations, for ~10ss is op.

Unless you play Close Deployment or sometimes Flank Deployment there is no chance Levi or Viks should be able to grab you on turn 1 unless you push recklessly your models to close to them.

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So I have not gone vs a levi rat engine list but I have played Hamelin a few times. Those are not games I look forward to but they are winnable, you just have to play differently from normal or at least normal for me. I am a blitz player, I charge and carnage and charge some more so when I see a rat engine I have to change my strategy in two ways. Fist I switch from Carnage to Assassin, I identifying the models I need/want to kill and remove them from the board. Then I also look at my schemes, knowing that no matter how many I kill I will always be behind I choose schemes that I accomplish at end of turn vs game. I find rat players tend to put to much stock in there numbers. I sometime do some divide and conquer as well, sure take Nekima I will have this model here get me my points.

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