Levi + rat engine = NPE

[Bodiless]

Had my first game against a full up Levi-Ashes-Rogue Necro rat engine build last night, and it was every bit as unfun as advertised. I had an 8 model Lilith crew, and literally activated every model before he had to activate anything of substance. By the time he actually did start moving things we had both gotten bored with the game. And because I had chosen to make a cautious advance towards the markers rather than simply turtle up at the back of my deployment zone, on turn 1 he was able to pick out Nekima and send all three of his big beaters after her. By turn 2 I was well on my way to being tabled and neither one of us was actually having fun so we called it. 

I've been turning the game over in my head since then and honestly can't think of a single thing I could have done to really alter the outcome of this game. I've heard people say you can play around the engine but honestly I don't see it. My only two choices that I can see were to get destroyed on turn 1, which is what happened, or spend all of turn 1 standing around in my deployment zone so that I could get destroyed on turn 2 instead. The combination of over-the-top beaters in the Rogue Necro and A&D, combined with an over-the-top master like Levi, combined with waiting for my entire crew to activate made this by far the most NPE I've had in Malifaux. Hopefully they will fix this in the July FAQ, if not I will probably drop out of the NOVA events I am signed up for. Anyone who is going into a competitive event there with plans to win or place is likely to be running some variant on this otherwise and that is not a game I'm interested in playing. 

[LordZombie]

Yup. I have not encountered this list, but have seen people in my area calling Malifaux unbalanced just because of this one list. The more this list gets used in tournaments, the more it ruins the already high barrier Malifaux has to get new people in. I am hoping they will change, because I doubt people will quit using it on their own. 

[Bodiless]

Playing against this list reminded me, vividly and unpleasantly, of why I stopped playing 40k. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall sentiments, but the Rogue Necro, over the top? That's the first I've heard that mentioned, especially from someone using Nekima . I've brought him in some games but he tends to die almost if a strong wind wafts its gentle fingers through his rotting mane. Massive threat coupled with def4 and no way to heal. I suspect that it's the rat engine that makes him feel over the top as he isn't exactly setting the world on Fire in the ressers. He's decent, but you can get better models for the investment.

I personally suspect, and though a part of me wishes it would occur earlier, that it will be at least a year until and if, and that's a big if, the rat engine is changed. It's quite common for large tournaments to generate the latest round of internet rage and calls to fix this or that. While I agree there should be a process and it shouldn't take years I do feel that the company needs to make certain it actually is a problem that needs fixing. There is some general agreement that Leveticus is not just the most powerful master in the game but also actually a little over the line, and has been since he started winning events after he came out. The individual who won Adepticon this year with the rat engine also won a major event with Leveticus some time ago and did exactly the same thing saying he won, and felt that how he won felt unfair and gave suggestions on what he though should be changed, and there was a massive discussion on the topic, and still nothing has changed.

I actually haven't faced the Rat Engine, but it actually is something I would in theory tend to agree needs to change. I remember tests in the open beta where models that are low cost were tested at lower costs, and some models bounced back and forth between hirable and un-hirable. My experience was that if a master has access to models that are exceptionally low cost, and have any utility at all, those models can provide too much advantage in the early game with activation control, especially when considering the range some models have to produce threat at some distance. I think some of the extreme power of leveticus also comes from the fact that he gets two free activations from two free models he just gets to bring for free so he can avoid the "tax" of actually having to bring models to stay alive, even though other masters in the game have to bring specific models to utilize their survival mechanisms. As an aside that is actually the first thing I would try to reign Leveitcus in, his waifs can still be free, but they should get a rule like the Clockwork Traps (another model that is just too good if you let the player get an activation out of it) that says something like Empty of Purpose: This model may not activate. This Crew's master may spend 1 AP during its activation to allow this model to take a 1 AP action. This may be done up to 3 times per turn.

It is due to that experience of low costed models, which didn't even have close to the utility Malifaux Rats do, in unbalancing the early game that leads me to believe the general sentiment is correct in this and that it does actually warrant a change. The problem, as slightly exemplified by the earlier Leveicus discussion, is even if you have general agreement that something needs to change, and you get Justin on board with it, there still has to be agreement on what will actually fix the problem without wrecking crews that actually need that piece of the puzzle. Figuring that out takes time. 

Personally I think the best way to go about lobbying for change, if you feel something requires it, is to swallow your distaste and play the particular op item at every tournament that isn't geared at growing the community. Nothing would help prove the argument that something needs to change like repeated tournament wins and podium finishes that crowd out the other options.

[Bodiless]

Rogue Necro probably _isn't_ over the top in a scenario where your opposition actually gets a chance to do something to him. But in this case on turn 1 he got a push forward from Lust, burned Oathkeeper for fast because now he was being hired into Outcasts so of course Oathkeeper, and then catapulted into Nekima who was standing just outside her deployment zone. The push from Lust would, ordinarily, have been a huge neon sign saying "HERE IT COMES, GET READY" except for the fact that I had already had to activate my whole crew by then so he could just pick and choose what he was going to destroy with it. 

[Panner_]

Yep, this pretty much matches my experiences with the rat factory. When all the rats are done the opponent can't do anything to respond, and that's when Leveticus jumps forward and murderizes the most important model, accompanied by a beater of choice. Then, if you win the next initiative you're pretty much guaranteed to win the game.

It works great with Victoria as well.

Rogue Necromancy is an interesting choice though. I've mostly used Killjoy since he charges for (1) and has the 'attack again'-trigger. But hey, whatever works!

[Bodiless]

Maybe if I had taken 3 Waldgeists and stood them shoulder to shoulder across the middle of the board? Just to give myself some room to move forward without letting him pick and choose what to kill? I think he probably still had enough movement to get around them and snipe out whatever he wanted but that might at least have made him put some thought into it. Regardless though it was not an interesting game for him either, since it didn't really feel like Malifaux. Basically the first turn did not have alternating activations in any meaningful way. I moved all of my stuff, and then he got to move all of his stuff in response.

[daniello_s]

But you really need to have a lot of luck to run Rat Engine effectively with other master than Hamelin.

Let say you get Obedient Wretch and 3 Rats which gives you 4 activations and good chance to get Rat King/Rat Catcher + Rat first turn and outactivate opponent as all you need is a single in your hand to pull the Rat needed to start shenanigans. But from turn 2 you start with single Rat (maybe 2 if you are lucky on turn 1) on the table so all your opponent must do is to play defensively on turn 1 and then normally from turn 2.

I used Rat Engines myself good few times and can't see what the problem is. 

[Bodiless]

Remember Levi also has two basically free activations built-in, so he doesn't need to get as much work out of the engine. And the threat range on A&D with Scout, Levi, and a Fast Necro or Killjoy is huge. I think Nekima was 6" out of her deployment zone in standard deployment last night and all three of them were able to reach her.

 

I definitely think that an 8ss investment which basically allows you to watch my whole turn unfold in combination with those kinds of threat ranges is a problem. 

[daniello_s]

Get Dreamer, Teddy with Retribution Eye, Waldgeists, Doppelganger, 3 Daydreams.

Block the approaches to your zone with Waldgeists and Daydreams to force your opponent to charge your Daydreams or stay further away.

[Thana.]

Been playing against rat factory lists on vassal recently out of Levi, Hamelin (only once) and Viks. Taking three waldgeists and standing them shoulder to shoulder isn't any kind of defense against that list because if he runs the viks version he'll kill them all in one blood vik activation, Levi shreds them pretty fast too. 

daniello_s: In the five games I've played against rat engine recently (on vassal) I've never seen the engine unable to secure absolute activation control (meaning can force opponent to activate everything  before the engine player has to activate anything of substance) on both turns one and two. Only one of those games was against Hamelin. All versions I've been playing against (piloted by 3 different players) have invested more points in the engine than just a wretch and 3 rats so that might be more indicative of the way the list is being played. Agree with your dreamer advice excepting that Nekima > Teddy vs everything other than strong arm suit. 

Playing against the ratengine requires you to play very differently than you would against other lists. You have to be prepared to forgo scoring for the first two turns, your list has to be able to take substantial loses and keep on ticking and it has to have a really nasty counter-punch. In my opinion, (subject to being disproved by other players) if you might be playing against ratengine you can't take Zoraida, Lucius and Lynch at a minimum. Lynch because he can't avoid getting popped, Zoraida because she's very vulnerable to being killed against certain versions of the list and even if not it's too easy to kill her lynchpin models and Lucius because his counter attack after the damage is done isn't strong enough. You also need doppelganger since you can't allow certain models to have two back to back activations. The combinations that I've had decent success with are: The summoning dreamer bunker since you can build up while your opponent secures position and sets up their alpha strike; Lilith with mysterious effigy, trees and aether connection since you can root one threat and weather another by pushing outside of melee range after the first attack of the charge and stoning whatever damage you take and Pandora with mysterious effigy and aether connection using a similar method of survival that lilith does. 

I haven't actually beaten the list yet, so take the above advice with that in mind. I've drawn 4 times and lost once. My win rate on vassal (not including rat engine games) was 100% until GG2016 and ~80% since for context. Don't have strong opinions on whether it should be errata'd or not but it's certainly very powerful. 

 

[Myth]

I wrote a really long response to this, but I guess the forums ate it. >_>

Anyway, I think the rat engine - particularly with Levi's existing brand of frustration - is certainly a less than fun thing to deal with. I don't think that necessarily makes it unstoppable, though. Turtling up for turn 1 is an option - the engine works great for 1 round, maybe 2 if the opponent heavily invests in it. Alternatively, if you have enough movement and mobility of your own, going the aggressive route can work - get Lilith in position to pluck out a rat and replace it with something scary. Accept that your own model will die - though hopefully not until after doing some damage of your own - and while your opponent uses their beaters to respond to your threat, the rest of your crew can aggressively advance to prepare for next turn.

Or, a third option, use some bait to get the opponent where you want him. Have a model or two on your front line that are considered acceptable losses - Young Nephilim, Mr. Graves, etc - to soak up the initial enemy attack, while your real threats wait behind them to launch a counterattack at the top of turn two. Or, even better, maybe you can set up a model that can actually weather the assault - a defensive Barbaros in cover, for example. Especially with Lilith there to limit what avenues of approach the enemy has. A Fast Necro and Scouting A&D can, yes, probably get close to your deployment zone in one turn - but only if there isn't any real terrain in the way. I feel like if you know what their speed is capable of, there are ways to position your crew to limit what they can get to in that one initial alpha strike.

And if you suspect you are up against this list, you can always invest in specific countermeasures. Freikorps Trappers can potentially snipe key parts of the engine early on (or force a big threat to come after them early), Killjoy is a great counter-assault model if you think he'll kill one of your guys early on, Stitched Together make great sacrificial bait, etc.

This doesn't mean these will be fun battles to look forward to. But I think the first time one faces a frustrating crew like this, it can feel much more unwinnable than it actually is when you go into the fight knowing what you are up against.

[Bodiless]

17 minutes ago, Thana. said:

 

Playing against the ratengine requires you to play very differently than you would against other lists. You have to be prepared to forgo scoring for the first two turns, your list has to be able to take substantial loses and keep on ticking and it has to have a really nasty counter-punch.

 

I can't think of a single one of my regular opponents where I could say "Hey, I'm going to spot you the first two rounds of scoring" and expect to take anything but a loss. Maybe against a real novice I could see getting away with that, but everyone in my usual gaming group is at least as good as I am and most of them are measurably better. Spotting my opponent last night two rounds of scoring would be tantamount to conceding. 

[Myth]

36 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

I can't think of a single one of my regular opponents where I could say "Hey, I'm going to spot you the first two rounds of scoring" and expect to take anything but a loss. Maybe against a real novice I could see getting away with that, but everyone in my usual gaming group is at least as good as I am and most of them are measurably better. Spotting my opponent last night two rounds of scoring would be tantamount to conceding. 

I think it definitely comes down to the strategy and scheme pool. Extraction is the one where it really hurts the most to give that free turn of control to the opponent. On the other hand, Head Hunter and potentially Interference you might barely even notice.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Also, while not an issue for casual play, conceding the first two rounds of the game for scoring purposes means that you are more likely to be out of contention for winning the tournament even if you win the game because it's likely you won't get a very big differential for tie breaker points. So just by running into the list you put yourself at less likely odds to actually win before you even deploy your crews or play the game. Not sure that piece of advice has much as much relevance for competitive play. Just as a consideration. Less of an issue when you aren't attempting to score big Differential.

[chryspainthemum]

Yea the turtle argument comes up every time someone mentions rat engine but... You can't turtle in this game and expect to come out on top. Also yes you can weather the killjoy and be prepared to counter next turn, but don't forget that the opponent still has a full Viktoria slingshot because the rat engine costs as much as Mr Graves. That is the crux of the issue (not the killjoy or the threat range) : should you be able to buy an obscene number of activations for 8ss in only one faction?

[Fetid Strumpet]

 

Quote

 

should you be able to buy an obscene number of activations for 8ss in ANY faction?

 

Fixed that for you. 

[Bodiless]

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

 

Fixed that for you. 

Pretty much. Because if every faction could take it you would end up having to take it, just because it puts you at such a disadvantage if your opponent has it and you don't.

[orkdork]

I haven't faced this yet, but it definitely sounds like something that will kick your butt the first N times you play against it, and maybe more after that as well.

For us NBorn, though, I would expect my Pandora crew beats this list fairly handily once I have a game or two against it. Incite/Voices mess with levi and the beaters, while A&D can be lured to a horrible fate at the hands of Nekima and her Doppelganger. His beaters aren't henchmen, so they can't burn stones on those all-important early duels.

That said, being forced to play a specific list vs. Outcasts is lame as hell  Then again, I think top-tier voices Pandora lists cause the same problems where some masters simply have no hope.

[Bodiless]

Given that I also had Nekima, Lilitu, and Doppel in my list last night I think you will be surprised. It is surprisingly hard to internalize what moving your entire crew before your opponent does anything meaningful does to a game of Malifaux. For example, last night I started out turn 1 moving my crew as I normally would, even though I knew my opponent had a rat engine and knew what it did on paper. I moved up my pair of terror tots, activated my primordial magic, etc. I was halfway through my turn before it really sank in that this was completely pointless and I might as well just go ahead and activate Lilith and Nekima now because my activation order was utterly irrelevant. Then once I had moved all of my stuff my opponent selected which of my big beaters he could most conveniently reach and erase (Nekima) and did so.

And it isn't just that all of your models are now in a fixed position and your opponent can plan around that. It also means you have no opportunity to interrupt combinations. As I said above, the Rogue Necro got into position in part by getting moved forward by Lust. This completely telegraphed what was coming next, and if I had been able to respond in any way whatsoever there are a ton of ways that I could prevented it from just charging straight across the board into my lines. Likewise when A&D charged in I might have been able to take it out before Levi could use it to jump to. But since I couldn't respond in any way he was free to just string combinations together at will. 

Neither one of us felt like we were actually playing Malifaux.

[chryspainthemum]

3 hours ago, orkdork said:

I haven't faced this yet, but it definitely sounds like something that will kick your butt the first N times you play against it, and maybe more after that as well.

For us NBorn, though, I would expect my Pandora crew beats this list fairly handily once I have a game or two against it. Incite/Voices mess with levi and the beaters, while A&D can be lured to a horrible fate at the hands of Nekima and her Doppelganger. His beaters aren't henchmen, so they can't burn stones on those all-important early duels.

That said, being forced to play a specific list vs. Outcasts is lame as hell  Then again, I think top-tier voices Pandora lists cause the same problems where some masters simply have no hope.

I think you're missing that the Ratjoy bomb has a range of 'the board' essentially, meaning he WILL bomb your Nekima or whatever other model he chooses. And unlike the traditional counter to Killjoy shenanigans (take the hit, then hit him back) you don't get to react because you've been outactivated. That means that the only thing you could use Incite/Voices/Mood Swing on would be a rat. Maybe turn 2 you could recover, but if you spent turn 1 turtling (since you just have to or risk losing half your crew) you're not in a good position... and the Pandora list you're talking about lives or dies by position. Obviously this is all theoryfaux, so really the only answer to this thread is: if you have not played against an experienced rat list (utilizing either Viktorias or Levi) please do so then report back. Ideally record your game so that if you beat it, we can see how.

[Ryin]

One good thing that Pandora has going for her is that charging her usually doesn't work out so well for the person charging her and she tends to eat models like Killjoy for breakfast.

She wouldn't be able to do it on turn one, but with the right crew, you could save your cards for defense and throw HER in their backfield. She can gum up the works fairly well even after she's used up her AP. 

You may be sacrificing a Master, but the trick with lists that are mechanical in nature is to throw them off their game plan. (Which is what they do to you)

you may be able to set up your models for a better position for turn 2, etc. without necessarily having to forgo not scoring points for two turns. 

I've only played against ractivation once, and it was Hamelin vs. resser Tara, but I didn't feel as bad after the game as I thought I was going to. I did end up losing, but it was close and I maybe could have won if I hadn't made some other mistakes, but I didn't feel hopeless. 

I think there's a big psychological aspect to Malifaux that doesn't necessarily get taken into account. So many people, especially newer players, can get overwhelmed by the unknown and I'm sure there's times that even hardcore players come across things that are unexpected. 

I know I still do double takes when something I wasn't expecting happens and I'm like "What? That can't be right..."

Not to say that the ractivation doesn't need to be scrutinized or isn't inherently facilitating NPE's, but I do think that familiarity IS an aspect to take into account when facing it or something like it.

[katadder]

only played against a rat engine once but it didnt seem as bad as some of your experiences. only lost really due to my poor scheme choices.

yes he got to out activate me but it didnt effect my game plan too much but then I had Willie opposite his big beater and wp17 test to charge can turn away some on 1st turn.

by turn 3 I actually had the numbers back down to equal (or even outnumbering him eventually) 

[Adran]

15 hours ago, Bodiless said:

I can't think of a single one of my regular opponents where I could say "Hey, I'm going to spot you the first two rounds of scoring" and expect to take anything but a loss. Maybe against a real novice I could see getting away with that, but everyone in my usual gaming group is at least as good as I am and most of them are measurably better. Spotting my opponent last night two rounds of scoring would be tantamount to conceding. 

I don't see this as a real representation of how the game goes. 

If you spend turn 1 turtling up and waiting, then your opponent has lost most of the advantage of the Rat engine. (Which is that they can wait until you extend and then strike without retailiation). 

Now, you've lost 20% of your game right there. But they spent over 20% of their crew costs to be able to do it. 

If they come out during turn 1 to tray and score, then they have models you can come out to attack in turn 2, so you are still having a degree of punch and counter punch. If they don't bring models out to a point where they could threaten you next turn, then you both don't really do much for the first turn, and you haven't lost out much on tempo. 

 

I still feel that out-activation is powerful, and known about. Out activating by 2 activations is not really much less powerful than out activating by 10 activations though And people have been building for that since the beginning. (Largely the onyl difference is you feel that you've had to waste every activation, rather than just most of your activations, which at least were also wastign your opponents activations)

Is it fun is a different question. And its one that I honestly think that as you learn to understand how it works and what you can and can't do will make it feel about as fun as several of the other strong combos out there. (Such as facing Mech rider or Leveticus about a year ago, or papa in a  box Sonnia the first time, or losign deplioyment and initatiev to Rasputina with a Decembers acolyte the first time, or the Viks whirleind bomb the first time). 

[lusciousmccabe]

To be honest I've found increasingly that advancing on the first turn can be unnecessary and disadvantageous in plenty of matchups. For some schemes you need to get a move on quickly, but a lot the time models can reach scoring position with one activation and only need to be there by turn two. It may seem like a waste of AP, but when your opponent is trying to out activate and force you into the firing line it can be a better choice to just sit tight and make them waste AP coming towards you.

I've no experience of applying that against the rat engine and Levi, which I'd imagine is pretty rough, but it does help with a lot of other end of turn 1/turn 2 rushes I'm used to playing against.