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Lilith for beginner


Spellscape

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Assuming you have the crew box, you can go a couple of ways. 

Waldgeist are excellent, especially if you take the Beckon Malifaux upgrade on Lilith (and you probably should)

The Nephilim box is a solid addition also. They are good models in there own right, and also let you try a grow list (using the rapid growth list to evolve your terror tots into bigger Nephilim) to see if that is something you would like.

A Budget list for Lilith might be something like:
Lilith with Bekon Malifaux
Cherub
Barbaros with Nephilim  Gladiatus
2x Waldgeists
2x Young Nephilim
2x Terror Tot


If you have a bit more cash money, I think the starter box is a very good investment (especially if you can split it with a Guild playing friend) because I really like Angel Eyes with lilith, and the Bloodwreches are good. And it's a really good way to learn the game if you are just starting out.

You'll eventually want to pick up Primordial Magic. You can't use him in the same crew as your Cherub but most people agree he's far better.

Nekima is probably the best beater in Malifaux.

A list I like to bring, is:

Lilith with Beckon Malifaux and On Wings of Darkness.
Primordial Magic
Nekima with The True Mother
Angel Eyes with Rapid Growth

2x Waldgeist
2x Terror Tot

But, if you try that list your going to need the two young nephalim and single mature nephalim on the side of the table so you can grow them. 

The spare soulstone you can keep in the Cache, you can put Aether Connection on Lilith if assassination is in the pool Or you can buy strange Alliances for Angel Eyes if you have bodyguard.

Of course, lots of people think grow list's arn't that good and would encourage you to do something else, it's one of those... when it works, it's hellerious, and when it doesn't work you can sort of get tunnel vision and spend the entire game trying to grow your dudes instead of scoring other points. 

Oh, one other model you want to branch out into when you start adapting your crew to fit the schemes and strategies would be the Doppleganger. Shes gold in things with scheme markers, (and pretty good without) 

So, if you don't want to try your luck with the grow list, you might try:

Lilith with Beckon Malifaux and On Wings of Darkness.
Primordial Magic
Nekima
Doppleganger
Young Nephilim
2x Waldgeist
2x Terror Tot

Edit: A good thing about this list is you can tweak exact numbers of Young Nephilim and Waldgeists depending on the scenario because they have the same cost, and you will have some spare.

Edited by Commisarp
I had a thaught
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I would advise against buying the Nephilim box. I've never bought the box and never felt like I needed them. Grow lists are a trap, Young Nephilim are terrible (why would I ever take one over an Illuminated?). Matures are alright, but between Teddy and Nekima and the Rider, you have significantly better beater choices. After the Lilith box, you can truthfully buy whatever you want since Lilith is very much a solitary master - she plays her own game of control while your crew does what they want. But if you're getting into the game, the key pieces as a Neverborn player are:

Doppelganger - not good at 35ss, amazing at 50ss. Probably the closest thing to an auto-include.

Primordial Magic - not as good in GG2016 schemes, but 2ss for an extra card every turn (+ an activation) is a steal and you know it.

Mr. Graves - he shows your master and your beater the door so they can save their AP to do actually useful stuff. He also hits fairly hard, so don't forget that.

Beater of choice - Nekima hits the hardest once she's stuck in but needs a lot of support to really pay you back that 13ss investment. Teddy is more resilient and hits just as hard between Flurry and the extra attack off Smell Fear/Gobble you up. Hooded Rider needs no support and can cover an entire flank by himself, but doesn't hit quite as hard as the other two (he hits harder turns 4-5, but the game may already be decided by turn 3 so bit of a gamble).

Between those four models, you'll have a 'core' crew - a list you can generally play with that'll support each other well and let you drive a massive winged wrench into your opponents plan. After that, you need models for your own schemes. There are basically two types of scheme runners (other than the killy ones) - people who can hold and people who can run. Terror Tots already do a great job at the running bit, so pick up a box of Waldgeists or Depleted for the holding schemes. Waldgeists tend to gum up the board better thanks to their terrain, but if you suspect armor penetration in your opponents list, they're basically useless and you're better off with Depleted.

 

EDIT: The Schemes and Stones spotlight on Lilith is honestly one of the best podcasts I've heard. Does a great job breaking down the hero and giving insight as to her general feel.

http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-18-master-spotlight-lilith/

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Oh, absolutely, Illuminated are rules wise one of the best minions in Malifaux. But they are also are some of the worst plastic models, as they were the earliest made and they only come in a big crew box with another master. 

But yeah, if your focus is winning games chrys gives good advice.

I'll admit to being mostly a painter (though not very good at it) and I like to have a good looking thematic crew, and I tend to think new players like to use the stuff that seems like it goes with the master they have picked.  

I would say to try things out, like the grow list, and not just rely on received wisdom myself. 

Young Nephalim arn't terrible. I mean, they can fly, which is still kind of nice, depending on the table.

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Lillith is a bit of a trap. She looks like a beater, but she shouldn't be thrown into a fight without some thought first. She has 10 wounds, a very good defence of 7 and a decent melee trigger, but will still be taken down unsupported. Lillith is best used as a stealth hunter and can dish out a lot of damage with possible positives to both attack and damage if she doesn't charge.....which she shouldn't really be doing anyway. Her best uses are to isolate enemies via her tactical actions and block lines of sight with her upgarde beckon malifaux (an auto take as far as I'm concerned). Her main weakness is her WP (5) so be careful of opponents that have lures or target willpower (Pandora is just horrible). 

As for a crew...Silurids, illuminated, doppelganger, primordial magic and Waldergeists are all staple inclusions in my crews. I have tried most of the beaters and I find Nekima is by far the best option. Another great addition I have used a lot recently is the Mysterious Effigy. For 4 stones it really is a steal.

I rarely if ever use Nephilim (not including Nekima here). The young and mature are OK, but are outshone by better options, which is a shame as I really like the young models (even if a slight breeze causes the leg to snap). I don't think I have used the crew from Lillith's box in ages, which is a real shame.    

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19 hours ago, chryspainthemum said:

Nekima hits the hardest once she's stuck in but needs a lot of support to really pay you back that 13ss investment. Teddy is more resilient and hits just as hard between Flurry and the extra attack off Smell Fear/Gobble you up.

I was surprised you found Teddy to be more resilient than Nekima. My meta has the opposite opinion on the two, part of that is the fact that Nekima can stone for damage prevention.

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11 minutes ago, Ox Barrel said:

I was surprised you found Teddy to be more resilient than Nekima. My meta has the opposite opinion on the two, part of that is the fact that Nekima can stone for damage prevention.

You're right in that nekima can stone, but I find teddy's impossible to wound is a significant step up over nekima's defense of 5. If I can't get my opponent on a negative flip, she just melts as they cheat in severe. Both of them play like bullies, I've just found teddy to eat up more of my opponents resources relative to my own.

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Obviously I'm not saying you're wrong, because personal experience will vary, but I tend to find Higher defense is better than a lower defense score with H2W or Impossible to wound in almost all situations. In order to get on cheatable damage flips the opponent has to win by 6 or more, which honestly, in my experience, rarely happens. The vast majority of duel totals I've seen or experienced almost always end within 1-5 if the attacker wins. What I've found H2W and I2W do better is they help mitigate the random spike dmg that comes across from a lucky moderate or severe dmg flip from the deck. Additionally the higher your defense score the fewer cards in the opposing deck that can even get them to the cheatable dmg flip. Add to that that a lower df score also means that things which cause conditions or effects on hit or dmg also are easier to get off against models with lower df. If my goal is to Slow you, or Paralyze you, or Poison you, or get blight on you, or burn you I don't really care much if your defensive ability goes negative flips unless my conditions are tied to the level of dmg I do, like Molly's Revelation attack.

The other issue is that low defense means better card efficiency for my opponent. Consider the following, the opposing player has 2 severe cards in hand and they want to do as much dmg as possible. If they attack a high value target without H2W or I2W and they use both cards they've potentially burned out 2 high cards to do significant dmg to the opposing model from one attack, but if they want significantly more dmg they still have to hit a second or third time in addition to that spike dmg hit otherwise they are probably just doing around the same dmg as two successful weak attacks, and a higher df score means that can be difficult. However in attacking a low def model, even with those traits, they might not do spike dmg, but they can almost certainly hit twice, doing weak both times, and most likely using lower value cards than otherwise would have been the case. Meaning you can potentially do 2 weak dmg to the target, which will often be pretty close to the dmg done by a spike dmg attack, using perhaps only lower value cards like 6 through 10, and still being to hang on to your high value cards for more attacks, or to save for defense, since your offensive flips don't require as much fuel.

For my money I'll universally take higher defensive numbers over mitigating the effects of a successful hit any day of the week.

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It's a personal thing. Terror doesn't necessarily eat a card from hand. The average model will pass the terror flip just flipping the top card of the deck close to 50% of the time. And even if you drain a card very rarely will it be of any real significance. In fact in some games where I was really paying attention to it the Terror flip actually at times hurt me because the card they flipped after the terror flip to actually attack was higher than what they flipped for terror. It could easily go the other way however and they could flip a very high card and then a low one. The point is that unless a significant portion of your models are packing a TN for the opposing model to target you the effectiveness you will get from Terror or manipulative is pretty random, and really statistically irrelevant. Again, not saying you're wrong, just I've encountered it differently and thus formed a counter opinion. Best advice to the OP, proxy one or the other for a few games before buying and make up your own mind as to which one you like better. Unless you just like one or the other better for aesthetic reasons.

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Teddy vs. Nekima is really not much of a contest in my experience, but then meta matters a lot.

Since you have 2 rush of magic and wings of darkness and stoned for cards (do this), you have an amazing hand in most all cases. This makes having DF5 very good.

But most of all, you have flight, min damage 4 and the ability to stone for cards. Plus, Flurry != melee expert, especially when your low card is likely an 8 or 9.

If you want a crew with an amazing skill ceiling that can take all comers, play Greg's list from the podcast.

If you want a very effective, newbie friendly list, take this:

Lilith, Beckon, Wings of Darkness, 7ss

Primordial Magic

Bad Juju, Eternal Fiend, Hexed Among You

3 Waldgeists

1 Silurid

1 Doppelganger

This list is very good at winning schemes. Lilith puts Juju where he needs to be while also locking down what she can with wicked vines (and projecting a charge threat zone). Juju occupies your opponent while your crew does schemes. Really easy to win with. Activation order is pretty obvious when just about every model has a buff that goes away after activation: activate whatever is least threatened. But it doesn't have the all-boards/all-opponents ability of Greg's list.

I actually take this list in my tournament set for when I need the mental break from my more complex crews.

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On 20/06/2016 at 6:35 AM, Commisarp said:

Oh, absolutely, Illuminated are rules wise one of the best minions in Malifaux. But they are also are some of the worst plastic models, as they were the earliest made and they only come in a big crew box with another master. 

Another reason to avoid them, at least early on, is they are so good they can become a crutch. Which is fine if your really like them, but it can prevent you from trying other minions which have their own strengths.

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  • 2 weeks later...
16 hours ago, Spellscape said:

So from starter box in most cases I'll use Lilith and Tots.

Anyway I'll try more thematic "demon" list with Nekima for now.

:lol:

If you want to run a thematic list you should pick up the Nephilim box and the Neverborn half of the Starter Set. Angel eyes makes a great ranged grower for your Tots.

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1 hour ago, Seryjniak said:

For reference what is greg list from podcast ?

A very strong crew that has few weaknesses and can complete nearly any scheme so long as you plan for it.

  • Lilith - Beckon Malifaux, Wings of Darkness, (sometimes Aether Connection) - 6ss cache (5ss with Aether Connection)
  • Primordial Magic
  • Nekima
  • Mr. Graves
  • Johan - Retribution's Eye
  • Doppelganger
  • Terror Tot
  • Mysterious Effigy

Here is the podcast explaining it:  http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-18-master-spotlight-lilith/

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Yes Spellscape, that's the list.  There are two common upgrades that are taken depending on the situation: 

  • Aether Connection on Lilith if there is Neutralize the Leader or Assassinate in the scheme pool
  • Retribution's Eye on Johan if you expect armor or troublesome Df/Wp triggers
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Of course we can't speak for Greg, but why Retribution's eye on Johan?  I've been putting it on Mr. Graves in stead as I've found Johan to be a little slow and more suited to the second wave or just hanging back removing conditions.

Graves is faster and hits just as hard against anything non-Tyrant/Construct...  And if you're up against those, then Johan becomes target #1... I prefer to spread my eggs...  Mr.Graves is also tougher.

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22 hours ago, Kirby said:

A very strong crew that has few weaknesses and can complete nearly any scheme so long as you plan for it.

  • Lilith - Beckon Malifaux, Wings of Darkness, (sometimes Aether Connection) - 6ss cache (5ss with Aether Connection)
  • Primordial Magic
  • Nekima
  • Mr. Graves
  • Johan - Retribution's Eye
  • Doppelganger
  • Terror Tot
  • Mysterious Effigy

Here is the podcast explaining it:  http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-18-master-spotlight-lilith/

Love this one. Really nice.

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21 hours ago, Da Git said:

Of course we can't speak for Greg, but why Retribution's eye on Johan?  I've been putting it on Mr. Graves in stead as I've found Johan to be a little slow and more suited to the second wave or just hanging back removing conditions.

Graves is faster and hits just as hard against anything non-Tyrant/Construct...  And if you're up against those, then Johan becomes target #1... I prefer to spread my eggs...  Mr.Graves is also tougher.

Honestly I'm not sure if Ret's Eye on Johan is Greg's preference or something I'm just in the habit of and am attributing to the crew.  It's probably detailed in the podcast.

For me, I prefer it on Johan because Mr. Graves is usually on push/pull duty.  I'm often not using his Fence Post as opposed to Show You The Door.  Further, Johan's Wk4 doesn't matter nearly as much when you have Mr. Graves and Doppelganger pushing things around, and even more when you consider Lilith's Tangled Shadows.  Being able to place Johan directly in melee range of something armored or with a troublesome Df trigger and have him simply remove it with a Flurry is plenty solid.  

Johan's job is to erase threats and remove bothersome conditions.  Condition removal has a 10" range, so being placed in a more forward position (when it is tactically valuable to do so) is perfectly fine.  Once you put Mr. Graves in a forward position, he is no longer moving your models around out of their activation.

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