What are Guild Guard good for?

[Cyranoinlondon]

So I've only just started with Malifaux. I got a Lady J box, added a Brutal Effigy and all was good. I then bought 2 Guild Guard. Nice models, enjoyed painting them. I thought they would be cheapish activations and decent scheme runners. But they do nothing. They are too slow compared to opponents' runners (Void wretches, Terror Tots, Insidious Madness), you have to Focus to have a decent chance of hitting with their gun so even 2 together struggle to shoot things down, and generally the 8 points for a pair seems a lot for little return. (And I assume that running 1 on its own is a bad move as Patrol seems like the best thing on their card).

So how do people make them work?

Do they need to be supported by other models and does that in turn push you to use them only with certain masters?

Perdita's box is on the painting table, will they do better with her?

Would I be better off just using hounds - cheaper, faster?

Thanks

C

 

 

[solkan]

Guild Hounds can't take Interact actions, so they're just faster running at things to kill them.  And winning a game is just as much about scheme markers as it is about killing stuff.

This part from the description on pull my finger seems accurate:

Quote

Guild Guard provide cheap activations. They are significant Minions which are surprisingly annoying to kill but have poor offense and movement. The typical purpose of a Guild Guard is to be a nuisance to your opponent while claiming objectives, not to kill things. They aren't a particularly fast scheme runner but they're cheap and disposable and will get where they're going eventually.

After all, if you can hit your opponent's scheme running with Halt!, that's going to make the other player choose between losing cards or not moving the scheme runner.

If you happen to have a bunch of models to provide synergy for Guardsman models then they become better, naturally.  And a fair amount of the Guardsman related synergy is there for the benefit of Lucius running around with a bunch of Guardsmen.

 

[Hunt.er]

The Guild Sergeant gives  them +1Wk if they start their activation close to him and they are nice for scheme denying. They are themed for Guardsmen crews, especially Lucius could send them arround. At least, they are cheap activations, like arcanist gamins. And they could support other units like Rifleman.

[Cyranoinlondon]

Well thanks for the replies. I must say given the frustration I've read here about how Lucius plays he wasn't at the top of my shopping list!

I did read the PullMyFinger wiki, but perhaps hadn't given enough emphasis to the 'poor offense and movement'. I'd rather hoped my scheme runners could frustrate my opponents' runners rather than having to depute other resources to the job. And I'm not sure I agree they can be a nuisance when their primary attribute appears to be that they die as slowly as they move.

So what is our primary scheme runner for things like Breakthrough and Power Ritual, and how do we counter fast-moving scheme runners from other factions?

I'm interested because in my first few games against equally inexperienced players my Lady J crew (with the Brutal Effigy replacing her totem) did well. On one occasion I eliminated the opposing crew entirely! But lately as the game size has increased to 50SS I'm struggling to compete because I'm being given the run-around. I faced a straight out the box Tara crew plus Aionus last week, and I couldn't get near it.

Thanks

C

[4thstringer]

They are mainly meat shields.   They can tie up the middle and take hits better than their cost would suggest.  They are as good as anyone for giving exhaust or distract or tags etc.  

I hate halt because it's easy to avoid early and not worthwhile late in the turn. 

Ive had one kill a snowstorm before, which is nice. 

[EnternalVoid]

7 hours ago, Cyranoinlondon said:

I did read the PullMyFinger wiki, but perhaps hadn't given enough emphasis to the 'poor offense and movement'. I'd rather hoped my scheme runners could frustrate my opponents' runners rather than having to depute other resources to the job. And I'm not sure I agree they can be a nuisance when their primary attribute appears to be that they die as slowly as they move.

So what is our primary scheme runner for things like Breakthrough and Power Ritual, and how do we counter fast-moving scheme runners from other factions?

I'm interested because in my first few games against equally inexperienced players my Lady J crew (with the Brutal Effigy replacing her totem) did well. On one occasion I eliminated the opposing crew entirely! But lately as the game size has increased to 50SS I'm struggling to compete because I'm being given the run-around. I faced a straight out the box Tara crew plus Aionus last week, and I couldn't get near it.

You got a couple options for your own scheme running depending on what your goal is and what the table looks like.  I have been willing to throw 3 guild hounds to the task if I feel they can make it, their speed letting them force confrontation if my opponent intends to stop them.  At the same time with the right terrain a Watcher becomes interesting because it can weave through the board pretty well and lead a merry chase.  Another options is Guild Orderlies, a bit more costly at 5ss but they have a Walk of 6 with Unimpeded.  That makes them about as fast as hounds but a point cheaper than a pair.  Oddly enough for certain schemes the Guild Sergeant is a great model.  If he does not have to cross the entire board *or it is corner deployment* he can actually get scheme markers placed pretty well by himself with his ability to kick them around.

Another thing to consider is any options that can give you other movement tricks.  Anything that moves another model makes even slower models an option.

Last thing to give you some thought, counter runners.  In your initial post you found that Guild Guards were to slow to counter the scheme runners you were facing.  Which is a fair option, they favor schemes/Strats that are less about moving and more about staying.  To catch other scheme runners they often have to double move into combat and accept they might get hit first but if your opponent is hitting them or trying to escape from them, then they are often not dropping markers.  Sometimes though you have to be willing to drop a few more stones on an option that can really put the screws to scheme runners and put a bit of hesitation into your opponent.  A good example of this is Grimwell.  He is 9ss, an henchmen, and might seem like overkill for hunting down scheme runners but with Nimble, Wk5, and Unimpeded he is pretty good at sprinting at them and getting them caught in combat.  Unless they are a more costly scheme runner like a Silurid many are stuck with him.  In addition his 2 AP attack hits hard enough to strait out kill some scheme runners and the Ml on it is 7 placing at a point even dodgy scheme runners are going to find it rough to avoid if you got a high card you are willing to spend on it.  Austringers can sometimes do this too if you have them well placed.  Often I have a master give a hand into counter running, I have had Perdita blast away at scheme runners turn 1 and/or 2 and clear the board of a couple to hinder their efforts.  Having their two runners killed turn 1 can often put your opponent in damage control mode as they try to figure out what else can fulfill the task.  With McCabe I have slingshot models off to kill a scheme runner or two before as well.

Now Lady J has some issues with this as her method of dealing with stuff often means getting in sword range and making it no longer an issue.  Namely when you have a limited hiring pool that does not support her in this regard.  But then again that is the thing about Malifaux, you are suppose to build your crew after the scheme/Strats, opponent faction, and table are revealed.  With a small model pool you just have to accept that your options are limited till it is expanded.  Till then you will find your games are all good match ups or bad match ups with less inbetween ones.

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Cyranoinlondon said:

 

So what is our primary scheme runner for things like Breakthrough and Power Ritual, and how do we counter fast-moving scheme runners from other factions?

 

Guilds primary answer to fast moving scheme runners is GUNS. the faction has more attacks at range than almost any other faction. This typically means you have  a greater threat range, and can afford to use more powerful models to remove weaker models without compromising your position as much. 

And I think the main answer to break through and Power ritual is probably austringer + something. Guild doesn't have terror tots, or necropunks. they aren't the fast moving faction. what they can do is project a wall of force that denies the opponent in ways those factions can't achieve. 

 

 

[Ludvig]

Austringers counter the other fast scheme runners eith their sh7 attack that ignores LoS. Guards can't do squat to stop scheming since almost all other factions have df 6 scheme runners which the guards don't have a shot at hitting. If an opponent is daring enough to go for convict labour you might be able to place close but most of my opponents avoid it like the plague.

Guards can do exhaust and other condition based schemes reasonably well, the problem is that it's the easiest scheme in the game that any model can do without even trying. You could use a pair of guards as a cheap backup in turf war/extraction if you combo them with a heavy hitter. Combined with a sergeant they can get a couple of marker schemes done if your opponent is a friendly kind of person that doesn't try to stop them. With the 14ss you pay for that package you would expect them to do more, they likely will not defeat or even survive long against Ashes and dust which is actually less points. 

They can drain a card if the enemy has a low df beater and you can shoot it before it charges. They can also be sturdy enough to survive the first enemy attempt at killing them so Lucius can sacrifice the injured one for a soulstone to deny Hunting party.

Short answer: if you want to take a single runner, take the brutal effigy, if you want to take two guards, take three guild hounds instead  

[lusciousmccabe]

15 hours ago, Cyranoinlondon said:

Well thanks for the replies. I must say given the frustration I've read here about how Lucius plays he wasn't at the top of my shopping list!

I did read the PullMyFinger wiki, but perhaps hadn't given enough emphasis to the 'poor offense and movement'. I'd rather hoped my scheme runners could frustrate my opponents' runners rather than having to depute other resources to the job. And I'm not sure I agree they can be a nuisance when their primary attribute appears to be that they die as slowly as they move.

So what is our primary scheme runner for things like Breakthrough and Power Ritual, and how do we counter fast-moving scheme runners from other factions?

I'm interested because in my first few games against equally inexperienced players my Lady J crew (with the Brutal Effigy replacing her totem) did well. On one occasion I eliminated the opposing crew entirely! But lately as the game size has increased to 50SS I'm struggling to compete because I'm being given the run-around. I faced a straight out the box Tara crew plus Aionus last week, and I couldn't get near it.

Thanks

C

You heard the complaints about Lucius but not guild guards, how did that happen? ?

Being slow and steady makes them more suited to Distract  and similar schemes. They can give the condition and then stand in melee with kind of "go ahead, waste your time" attitude.

For the more speed intensive schemes you probably want to look at (in addition to EternalVoid's suggestions) the Pale Rider and possibly other horseback dudes. Hunters can also make decent anti-schemers/schemers as well.

In general though guild tends to focus less on the "add two random scheme runners to your crew" design philosophy. A lot of the time you instead have a couple of models from your crew contribute to schemes in addition to their other duties. So for example you might hire a Pathfinder to do some work for corner deployment and have one of your henchmen drop a marker in another corner after killing their way there. 

Similarly there are a fair amount of dual purpose schemers like Lawyers and Death Marshalls who might not be fast or evasive enough to complete a scheme on their own but can easily do part of one in addition to their main job.

[Vorschlag]

Pistolero plus 2 guard 6df positive defence flips...almost a 13 stone tarpit.

Add a lawyer for positive flips to terror tests and hopefully hand out hard to wound to add to their +1 armour.

Now on nearly 20 stones or alternatively a sergeant for scheme marker drop kicks.

Doing something useful with them will be the trick, once their in position you could possibly teleport into scheme markers remove them and walk back into the support bubble.

[lusciousmccabe]

5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Austringers counter the other fast scheme runners eith their sh7 attack that ignores LoS. Guards can't do squat to stop scheming since almost all other factions have df 6 scheme runners which the guards don't have a shot at hitting. If an opponent is daring enough to go for convict labour you might be able to place close but most of my opponents avoid it like the plague.

Investigate is probably their most impressive ability and I've found it very useful in a couple of games. Unfortunately I think they were costed as if it would be useful every game. ?

[Ludvig]

Just now, lusciousmccabe said:

Investigate is probably their most impressive ability and I've found it very useful in a couple of games. Unfortunately I think they were costed as if it would be useful every game. ?

If you could do it as a (0) after walking close or use it on your own markers to give them some extra movement tricks  it would feel a lot more worthwhile. I'm not sure I've ever been able to pull it off since they need to start close to the enemy marker and have LoS (it is "target" right?).

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah, it is pretty awkward.

It also has the issue of mostly being good when you both take a line in the sand or something, which is unusual.

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Yeah, it is pretty awkward.

It also has the issue of mostly being good when you both take a line in the sand or something, which is unusual.

Or convict labour where you are probably already denying the point if you are close enough to the marker to use the ability.

[Cyranoinlondon]

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in.

So if I have absorbed the info correctly:-

1. Guild Guard are really only good at a few very specific schemes.

2. You need to pick your crew to match the schemes and strats (and presumably the opposition) once you know what they are. So I need to expand my model collection pronto to give myself options. This is very different from my usual approach which is to build a straightforward army then learn to use it by playing it repeatedly.

3. If I need to complete schemes that require a fair amount of movement then hounds and watchers are good.

4. If I want to block fast moving opposition runners I should concentrate on shooting them down (good job I picked up the Ortega family!) or be prepared to send something nasty after them (eg Hunters or even a character model with a movement trick).

5. There is clearly another source of schemes that I'm missing. Some have been mentioned here that I can't recognise (exhaust, convict labour). Where is that?

6. My shopping list is now - Austringers, Hounds, Serjeants, Pale Rider (he looks really cool), and maybe the Hoffman box (I don't fancy the synergistic feel of his playstyle, a bit too much like Warmachine for my taste, but the Hunters and Watcher seem to be good additions).

That sound about right?

C

 

[Ludvig]

25 minutes ago, Cyranoinlondon said:

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in.

*snip snip*

That sound about right?

C

 

Sounds about right. I would hold off on going shopping crazy, if you buy austringers and hounds they should last you a long time until you are familiar with all your models. If you don't buy them you should should still have a decent chance at many schemes with the models you already have and you will find out what you are really craving soon enough.

the new schemes are found in the document "gaining grounds 2016" which is under "official play documents" zip file in the resources section on this site. http://www.wyrd-games.net/resources/

[ArcticPangolin]

47 minutes ago, Cyranoinlondon said:

2. You need to pick your crew to match the schemes and strats (and presumably the opposition) once you know what they are. So I need to expand my model collection pronto to give myself options. This is very different from my usual approach which is to build a straightforward army then learn to use it by playing it repeatedly.

Well, using the same crew for a few games really helps you to cement in your mind how they work, and how you can use them in new and interesting ways. There'll be times where the strat and schemes works for them and times where it's more of an uphill battle, but unless you buy 15 of a model and run a crew of only it you're going to be in with a chance (unless of course those models are Slop Haulers). It can be good to drip-feed new models into your starting crew as you'll have most of the crew's mechanics fresh in your memorybanks and can focus on how to get the most mileage out of your shiny new redshirts.

Where players lose is generally when they:

i) Forget the Strat and their Schemes

ii) Forget the opponent's Schemes

iii) Are playing against a crew with unfamiliar mechanics (and I'm not talking about Sparks)

iv) are running a bunch of models for the first time

v) have bad luck

vi) Are playing against an opponent with a greater mastery of their crew

vii) Are playing against an opponent with a greater understanding of your crew

viii) Any combination of the above

But I've always found I learn more by trying to squeeze as much as possible out of my guys in an uphill battle against the odds as I start to think harder about just HOW I can score my points that round or deny them theirs.