Summoning overview

[D_acolyte]

So new month and a new topic, I will admit that the month changed on me rather suddenly.

Today I will be talking about summoning, the power of it and my opinion on it but real quick I will state I like my crow deep fried. The reason for this is because through mark one and into early mark 2 I hated play vs a summoner well now the master I am most conferrable with is the summoning Dreamer.

Like I said I will take my crow fried.

As for the power of the summoners I tend to think of it as 2 things. First and I feel this is most important is what they can summon because this intern tells us the flexibility of the tool box the summoner has with him. The next one is how this effect your activation power. To this I will say the two strongest master that summons in my opinion, yes it is tautology but I did it, are the Dreamer and Ramos. They are also a good example of the two important strength of summoning.

Dreamer cares a good size toolbox of models to summon with actions. This toolbox includes some disruptor, a mainline combatant, enforcers, pests, and a scheme runner. In short he has almost anything you want for almost any situation or scheme. The next best toolbox is Nicodem but he does not have enforcers so he can not do the surprise hunting party. The downside is at least how I tend to run the Dreamer the model I summon tends not to add to my activation power that turn because I accomplice into it.

Ramos, this guy is the other end of the spectrum. He summons 1 thing if you do not look at his avatar, spiders, more spiders and even more spiders. He can summon them in duplicate or triplicate per an action he uses. This can rapidly just your activation power to that of a gremlin or higher. So for those that do not have a solid understanding of activation power in this case it is simply how many activation do I have to do stuff. The next best for this is not one model, hence why they are not the first but Hamelin's crew.

The issues with summoning comes in the form of cost. Things like the cards needed or if you need “raw” materials. The most common is that the model comes in slow, but there tends to be several way to mitigate this from triggers, to abilities, to actions, to not caring if the 15 rat is slow. Most summoners I have seen tend to figure out how to stop this pesky problems if it is an important model. Another common thing is that if you do not use raw materials like scrap or corpses your summons tend to come in damage. The worse master with a summoning action is Collodi. Some or even maybe all will disagree but he general summon at a premium needing one point higher for the card then normal and he needs scrap which is not necessarily common.

Trigger summoning is an interesting little things. Though I call it trigger summoning I am going to define it as summoning through a non summoning action, so this will include abilities like grow or actions like expunge that can trigger a summon. With models which have these abilities I tend to think of them as quarter to a half summoner just because of how difficult some of them are. It is almost better to call it model trading. With grow, which I tend not to have happen, I am killing one of your models to sacrifice mine and make a new one. This means that I have another point in activation power for that round and a better model but next round you are only down one. Compare this to some of the others. First is McMourning expunge which if it kills something a living or undead it can make a flesh construct which is almost as powerful as an actual summoning action in some situations. Then we have things like if a model dies because of fire or poison summon X which is also ok it just does not effect the turn it is summon and a pain to get off. So this to me makes them the weakest form of summoning models. I think Sonia falls into this group, I know she can summon I just never see her do.

So how do you tackle these guys?

Answer, know your enemy. Identify what they need and try to take that away. The almost sure fire one is cards. Just about all of these need cards. Also a lot of powerful summoning masters seem to be bubble masters so you might be able to mitigated it with terrain or crafty play.

I will try to put up a list of most of the summoning models and what they need in the next week, this list will not a comprehensive list because there are a lot of odd ones such as the guild autopsy. Ask any questions or leave a comment all are welcomed.

 

One of my friends asked if I will do my thoughts on the new masters fronts once they are all leaked. The answer is no but when I get my book from Gen Con I will do a post on my thoughts of there fluff, rules and how I would probably run them with what upgrades if people would like that. I do not think I will be the first because I tend to order my book and not go to Gen Con.

[Omenbringer]

Over all not a bad write up.

[D_acolyte]

Thank you.

It could be longer and go into more examples but then there is a size and depth vs how many are going to read it. I sort of glossed over something's but I think overall it covers it ok.

[Fog]

Saturday an opponent used Sue to give Joss finish the job and ate my turn 1 scrap... against gremlins...

It was an unpleasant game.

[KrazyIvan]

I run Levi 99% of the time, and I love kill-summoning Abominations right in the midst of the enemy. There isn't much to be done about it except kill Levi before he activates, or spread your models out. Otherwise I will put a minion by you that strips suits from CA actions, prevents 0 actions from being taken, causes duels to avoid damage as a passive ability, and potentially summons more Abominations. They are my favorite little tar pit. Most times my opponents then spends precious AP trying to kill the Abominations, and I am happy to spend high cards keeping it alive. My advice would be throw your minions at it, but otherwise just try to get you important models away from it. Trading master, henchman, and enforcer AP on killing it is a trap, and exactly what I want you to do.

 

[Ludvig]

Nice writeup.

I would add that Sonnia doesn't only summon when something dies to burning but when any burning enemy dies. I still haven't seen that compete with Ramos in number of summons but it means she can get new summons mid turn that get to activate.

Loving or hating summoners seems to boil down to wether you play them. I hate them  

[Jafar]

Great job!

I would add one additional factor. What card draws & tricks to help hand and soul stones, are available for master when she/he summons. For example Nicodem can create zombies and when they die draws card. There is also that Nanny guy in ressers. Leveticus can take Tally Sheet upgrade and get condition from effigy to get soulstones. Dreamer has this upgrade that allows him to draw 3 cards and discard 3 instead of 2. Ramos has upgrade to draw 7 cards not 6.

For my it's important to know if summoner after summoning will have more or less strong hand, or will be left with weak cards.

 

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, KrazyIvan said:

Trading master, henchman, and enforcer AP on killing it is a trap, and exactly what I want you to do.

Eh, it may be have been a freebie but it is a model similar to any other model (except that it is situated very annoyingly and has really annoying passives). If the Master is a killer then the player should make the normal decisions about which models to kill. Taking into account that the Abomination was free and therefore somehow less valuable is a bad idea. Kill it with whatever you need to kill it with. If the Master can one-shot it reliably whilst Minions would take multiple AP and still might not kill it, then the choice can be a really easy one.

[D_acolyte]

11 hours ago, Jafar said:

Great job!

I would add one additional factor. What card draws & tricks to help hand and soul stones, are available for master when she/he summons. For example Nicodem can create zombies and when they die draws card. There is also that Nanny guy in ressers. Leveticus can take Tally Sheet upgrade and get condition from effigy to get soulstones. Dreamer has this upgrade that allows him to draw 3 cards and discard 3 instead of 2. Ramos has upgrade to draw 7 cards not 6.

I did a post on opportunity cost in the game that used summoners masters as an example but there are so many ways for models to get cards or suffer discard I almost felt like that is a separate topic where this is an overview or introduction sort of thing.

For instance: Daydream sacrifice itself to give the Dreamer lucid, adding a mask to his cast for his turn. Dreamer stone or cheat a crow to summon Lelu so he is not slow and then put playtime on him to draw a card when Lelu damages with his attack actions, then accomplice from the Dreamer into Lelu to let Lelu heal and charge.

End result:

Activation power: no change this turn

Cards: net gain 1 maybe two

Cost: 1 stone

I could see doing a tips on how to play with summoner posts, I just not sure I should be the one to do it as I do not play all the summoners. If I do that post it will be in a month or two so I can digest it all. I have exp playing with: Molly, Karia, Dreamer, Collodi, Yan Lo so a good amount and have seen probably every summoner master with summoning action on the field.

[Omenbringer]

@D_acolyte

Not sure about your "End result" posted above, particularly in regards to Activation power. If the Day Dream has already activated in the turn and is then sacrificed to ease the summoning of another model then it does increase the Activation power by one for the turn.

Also I agree though that trying to write an article on summoning that covered all the summoners would be difficult, especially in regards to Som'er who has some rather interesting methods.

 

[D_acolyte]

3 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

@D_acolyte

Not sure about your "End result" posted above, particularly in regards to Activation power. If the Day Dream has already activated in the turn and is then sacrificed to ease the summoning of another model then it does increase the Activation power by one for the turn.

Also I agree though that trying to write an article on summoning that covered all the summoners would be difficult, especially in regards to Som'er who has some rather interesting methods.

 

So let me explain my end results a little more to make it clear.

The loss of the day dream as you stated does not have an effect on your activation power because it already activated. Also accomplishing Lelu causes him to activate right after the Dreamer and in doing so trades his addition to the activation power for a stronger set of activation.

Lets say you start with 7 models, so your activation power is 7. This can be used to stall important activations or to activate to counter various things, effectively you have 7 moves till your out for the turn. The day dream activates and sacrifice himself, this causes no change in the activation power because as you point out he has already activated so no matter what you would be at 6. Dreamer activates and summons and does playtime. This is where we can make some assumption on what the cost is for the summoning for simplicity I placed it at a stone for the crow as now any 11+ will qualify for the end result of summon and trigger. Takes us to 5 but back up to 6 because of summoning for activation power normally. 

The summon model comes in with 1 wound left so I tend to accomplice into him because he tends to die if he does not activate right after the Dreamer. This is a double spending of activation power taking us back down to 5 but it means our activation this time is stronger then normal. I tend to think of this to no change this turn in my head as I would end the Dreamer if he did not summon with 5 and still be at 5 even after the summoning because how I choose to spend it.

Next turn I will be back at 7.

The card gain from play time I have at 1 maybe 2 because I am basing it on what I summon the most, Lelu who has an attack at skill 6 and should hit often.

Now if we look at Ramos. He activates and if scrap is near him can summon 2 spiders at a good consistency, especially if you spend a card to cheat. This will increase his activation power by 2. Even if Ramos spend an activation power to accomplice he still has a net activation gain of 1 for that turn. On the off hand you spend a high tome and a stone you can make 3 spiders instead of 2.

Hope that clears up how I think of this. Might be a little odd but I am basically measuring it at point my opponent gets to activate.

[Omenbringer]

The Accomplice part was what I missed, that explains it.

[D_acolyte]

NP. I went up and edited the post to make it a little clearer.

[KrazyIvan]

20 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Eh, it may be have been a freebie but it is a model similar to any other model (except that it is situated very annoyingly and has really annoying passives). If the Master is a killer then the player should make the normal decisions about which models to kill. Taking into account that the Abomination was free and therefore somehow less valuable is a bad idea. Kill it with whatever you need to kill it with. If the Master can one-shot it reliably whilst Minions would take multiple AP and still might not kill it, then the choice can be a really easy one.

Indeed that choice needs to be made. My point is that often times I will summon that Abomination as a speed bump to keep killy models held up for my own reasons; usually to protect a waif or get another model into scoring position. I want my opponent spending activationa trying to kill the Abomination, and will often drop 10-13s, even Red Jokers, keeping Abominations alive as long as possible to drain AP. Whomever is on the other side of the table just needs to consider why I put that Abomination in the line of fire before investing AP in killing the model, because it could be more costly than they think.

[Math Mathonwy]

14 hours ago, KrazyIvan said:

Indeed that choice needs to be made. My point is that often times I will summon that Abomination as a speed bump to keep killy models held up for my own reasons; usually to protect a waif or get another model into scoring position. I want my opponent spending activationa trying to kill the Abomination, and will often drop 10-13s, even Red Jokers, keeping Abominations alive as long as possible to drain AP. Whomever is on the other side of the table just needs to consider why I put that Abomination in the line of fire before investing AP in killing the model, because it could be more costly than they think.

Naturally. I just disagreed that killing it was a "trap". If it needs to be done, then it needs to be done and usually it's better to draw out your good cards on something like that rather than into more important stuff which would happen if the opponent simply left the Abomination in peace.  

[D_acolyte]

This is a little late and no it is not a complete list but it is a good start:
Scrap summoning: Ramos, Collodi, Widow Weaver, Leveticus, Rusty Alyce, Toshiro
Corps summoning: Nicodem, Yan Lo, Seamus, Toshiro, Widow Weaver, Spare Parts upgrade, Maniacal Laugh upgrade, Guild Autopsy, Sabastian
Off of models: Som’er, Kirai, Ulix
No resources: Dreamer, Molly, Mech Rider, Ramos, Hamelin, Karina, Big Jake, Pathfinders
Other resources: Coppelius (eye condition), Kiria, Spawn Mother, Ulix, Rat King, Stolen, Desolation Engine, Ashes and Dust, The Sow, Mysterious Emissary, Carrion Emissary, Forgotten Marshal
Just cause: Shenlong, Kirai, Dreamer, Reva (Corps candles)
Off of triggers: McMourning, Karis, Obedient Wretch, Lenny, Datsue Ba, Leveticus, Rusty Alyce, Anna
Die near me (often with some sort of condition): Hamelin, Rat Catcher, Alps, Sonnia Criid, McMourning, Nekima

Transformers/combiners: Myranda, Malifaux Rats, Steam Arachnids, Coryphees, Abominations, Ashen Core + Dust Storm, Gupps, Terror Tots, Young Nephilim

Also someone pointed out that Ramos can also summon the Electrical Creation that I missed when I did the post originally.

[tmod]

8 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

This is a little late and no it is not a complete list but it is a good start:
Scrap summoning: Ramos, Collodi, Widow Weaver, Leveticus, Rusty Alyce
Corps summoning: Nicodem, Yan Lo, Seamus, Toshiro, Widow Weaver, Spare Parts upgrade, Maniacal Laugh upgrade, Guild Autopsy, Sabastian
Off of models: Som’er, Kirai, Ulix
No resources: Dreamer, Molly, Mech Rider, Ramos, Hamelin, Karina
Other resources: Coppelius (eye condition), Kiria, Spawn Mother, Ulix, Rat King, Stolen, Desolation Engine, Ashes and Dust, The Sow, Mysterious Effigy
Just cause: Shenlong, Kirai, Dreamer
Off of triggers: McMourning, Karis, Obedient Wretch, Lenny, Datsue Ba, Leveticus, Rusty Alyce
Die near me (often with some sort of condition): Hamelin, Rat Catcher, Alps, Sonnia Criid
 

Also someone pointed out that Ramos can also summon the Electrical Creation that I missed when I did the post originally.

Also don't forget Toshiro can summon Komainu from Scrap...

 

[D_acolyte]

1 hour ago, tmod said:

Also don't forget Toshiro can summon Komainu from Scrap...

 

Edited.

[Durza]

Mcmourning gets dogs off things dying near him if they have poison.

[D_acolyte]

Edited. Thanks people, keep them coming.

Also next month I am thinking about doing one on playing the differential and what that means.

[brdparker]

On 6/6/2016 at 8:54 PM, Fog said:

Saturday an opponent used Sue to give Joss finish the job and ate my turn 1 scrap... against gremlins...

It was an unpleasant game.

That is beautiful. I already field Sue whenever I can find an excuse, and I never noticed that Tread the Line didn't target friendlies.

 

I'll tack on Myranda's Shapechange, which is from a thematic standpoint more of a transformation, but uses the term "summon", along with the Gupps' evolving into Silurids off of kill trigger.

[Bengt]

4 hours ago, brdparker said:

I'll tack on Myranda's Shapechange, which is from a thematic standpoint more of a transformation, but uses the term "summon", along with the Gupps' evolving into Silurids off of kill trigger.

Other "transformers" are Nephilim growth. There are also "combiners", e.g. Malifaux Rats, Steam Arachnids, Coryphees, Abominations, Ashen Core + Dust Storm.

---

Carrion Emissary summons Mindless Zombies with the Shards and other stuff with the Destined condition.

Forgotten Marshal summons stuff when he dies (no resources).

Anna summons Mindless and Seishin off a trigger.

Mysterious Emissary summons Changelings off Scheme markers and his own Wds.

Big Jake summons himself sort of (no resources, but needs a friendly model in play).

Reva summons Corps candles.  

[Bengt]

Pathfinders summons Clockwork traps (no resources).

[D_acolyte]

Thanks, I added a new one section for Transformation/Combiners. Now I will have that song stuck in my head all day.

[Corwin]

On 6/7/2016 at 3:36 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Eh, it may be have been a freebie but it is a model similar to any other model (except that it is situated very annoyingly and has really annoying passives). If the Master is a killer then the player should make the normal decisions about which models to kill. Taking into account that the Abomination was free and therefore somehow less valuable is a bad idea. Kill it with whatever you need to kill it with. If the Master can one-shot it reliably whilst Minions would take multiple AP and still might not kill it, then the choice can be a really easy one.