May FAQ

[Justin]

Hey all,

The May FAQ is up, check it out:  http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/downloads/M2E_FAQ_Errata_5-1-16.zip

It is worth noting that one question from the previous (March) FAQ was removed: question 8 under abilities and actions that affect multiple models.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, DaGoat said:

I have been wondering this for a while.  Even in the previous faq it reads like you are comparing the start Ht and the end Ht.  So what do you do if say there is a 3 Ht wall and you want to go from one side to the other?  If the ground is the same Ht on both side of the wall, do you just ignore it and do your full Wk through it?

Thanks!

If you go by the wording of Flight and take it as written, then yeah, the model with Flight just ignores its way through the wall.

I suppose conceptually a model with Flight would go over the wall and then plummet (making good use of its ability to ignore falling) to ground level on the other side; and the Incorporeal model would just go through the wall at ground level.  That's sort of alluded to in the rulebook concerning Enclosed.

Probably the best thing (in my own personal opinion) would be to make sure that the path taken by the Flight model adds up along the way as far as Ht values go by checking the extremes along the way.  So you take the model on the ground, then you have it move to the top of the wall, then you have it move to the ground.  If there were more scenery involved, you'd really just want to check the high points--the model climbs to Ht X here and then climbs further to Y there and then ends up over there at Z.  I think that's going to be practical to do, and I think it's how most people would expect Flight to work.

So while the model with Flight "ignores" the Ht3 wall (ignoring all of the inconvenient traits like Climbable and Impassible), you're might feel like you want to account for the Ht3 difference along the way. 

Edit:

But, as far as the FAQ is concerned, you don't have to worry about it all.  Because it starts:

Quote

A model with Flight ignores terrain for all purposes while moving.

and then goes

Quote

However, the distance the model moves is still limited by the length of the move the model is allowed to take. Add the distance the model moved horizontally in relationship to its starting point to the distance the model moved vertically upwards (downwards movement is falling and it is never counted against a model’s movement total) in relationship to its starting point. This value may not exceed the distance allowed by the move the model was making.

So, for the sake of simplicity, you ignore the Ht3 wall entirely and don't deal with the Ht at all.

 

Edited May 4, 2016 by solkan
Hit by bird, a very informative bird.

[Myyrä]

Yay, flight finally got a FAQ that actually explains how it works. Now I just need to decide if I want to start crusading for vantage points or models getting killed next...

[TheRedZealot]

Is there a specific reason that the Model's flight distance isnt measured in a Diagonal? Im not sure I follow the need to measure the two legs of a triangle vs. the hypotenuse. The Rules themselves mention measuring from base to base for range for example. Is this really that different? 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, TheRedZealot said:

Is there a specific reason that the Model's flight distance isnt measured in a Diagonal? Im not sure I follow the need to measure the two legs of a triangle vs. the hypotenuse. The Rules themselves mention measuring from base to base for range for example. Is this really that different? 

I think the main reason would be this statement in the rules:

Quote

In Malifaux, all measurements are done from a top- down perspective. Elevation is not factored into the measurement, although model and object height are used in other ways.

That's the paragraph after the statement that measurements are from base to base.

Contributing reasons would include that your Ht6 building may not actually be 6" tall, and maintaining support for those playing Malifaux using Vassal.

[Artifact]

Regarding question 16, are 'one per Turn' and 'once per Activation' effectively the same restriction or is there a distinction I am not understanding?

[solkan]

14 minutes ago, Artifact said:

Regarding question 16, are 'one per Turn' and 'once per Activation' effectively the same restriction or is there a distinction I am not understanding?

Models can have more than one activation per turn, so there's a huge difference.

More importantly, "Once per activation" limits apply even if the activated model isn't the one with the action printed on their card.  So, for example, if Zoraida used Obey on the Emberling to make it perform Fan the Flames, Zoraida can't make Emberling do it twice during her current activation.

But if Zoraida gained Reactivate, she could do it again in her next activation that same turn.

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by solkan
Typo

[Artifact]

That is what I initially assumed, but the formatting of the question and answer made me think otherwise. Guess I am misunderstanding the context. To me it seemed as if the FAQ was ruling 'once per Action' actions were similarly illegal even in the event of subsequent activations.

[solkan]

What this means:

Quote

A model which has an Action with the “once per Turn” restriction may only take that Action once per Turn. Same answer for Actions which are “once per Activation.”

is

Quote

A model which has an Action with the “once per Turn” restriction may only take that Action once per Turn.

A model which has an Action with the  “once per Activation” restriction may only take that Action once per Activation.

It's that sort of "same answer".

Edit:  Actually, let me amend that.  The answer was:

Quote

No.  A model which has an Action with the “once per Turn” restriction may only take that Action once per Turn. Same answer for Actions which are “once per Activation.”

which means:

Quote

No (to all of the questions asked).  A model which has an Action with the “once per Turn” restriction may only take that Action once per Turn.

No (to all of the questions asked).  A model which has an Action with the  “once per Activation” restriction may only take that Action once per Activation.

since the question had all of the variations concerning "But what if the action failed, or if the action was being performed by Obey, or..."

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by solkan
Clarification.

[Seryjniak]

Hi guys after a game I have few questions in regards to flight FAQ from this document.

1. Do I understand this correctly - If a model has flight it can tottaly ignor a building and if straight line be drown from point A to point B and the levels of point A and B are the same (so no elevation change) I just move the model - no vertical shananagans needed ?

2. Can I say that I use both my AP for Walk action to move and then move over wider building that I would not be able to do with just one walk action ? As long as I end the movement on the other side of this building on the same elevation that I started ?

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Seryjniak said:

Hi guys after a game I have few questions in regards to flight FAQ from this document.

1. Do I understand this correctly - If a model has flight it can tottaly ignor a building and if straight line be drown from point A to point B and the levels of point A and B are the same (so no elevation change) I just move the model - no vertical shananagans needed ?

As long as you're not starting or ending in an Enclosed terrain item, yeah, that's how it works.

1 hour ago, Seryjniak said:

2. Can I say that I use both my AP for Walk action to move and then move over wider building that I would not be able to do with just one walk action ? As long as I end the movement on the other side of this building on the same elevation that I started ?

As far as the game mechanics are concerned, there's no such thing as a 'double walk'.

Each individual Walk has to be valid on its own.  So if you're not able to move past the building in one walk, you have to go over or around the building.

[icebreaker]

Quote

9) Q: How do the Flight and Incorporeal abilities interact with vertical terrain? Can a model
with Flight end its move a further vertical distance from its starting point than its Walk stat
would normally allow? Can a model with flight “leap” over a gap in two pieces of terrain?
A: A model with Flight ignores terrain for all purposes while moving. However, the distance the model moves is
still limited by the length of the move the model is allowed to take. Add the distance the model moved horizontally
in relationship to its starting point to the distance the model moved vertically upwards (downwards movement is
falling and it is never counted against a model’s movement total) in relationship to its starting point. This value may
not exceed the distance allowed by the move the model was making. For example, a model with a Wk of 6 and
Flight declares a Walk Action. It is on a Ht 3 building and wishes to move to a point on a separate terrain piece
(a Height 5 building) which is 3” away. It takes the model 5” of movement to get there (3” of horizontal movement
and 2” of vertical movement because the difference between the Heights of the buildings is 2, and the model ismoving upwards). Since the model has a Wk of 6, it can make it to the desired point on the Ht 5 building and still
has 1” of movement to use as it wishes once it gets there. Incorporeal models move in the same way, though they
may take falling damage if the end point of their move is on a lower Ht, depending on the terrain (see falling, Core
Rulebook pg. 42). (5/1/16)

Does It mean that models with flight ignore penalty for climb trait? In my logic distance should be 3"+((5-3)*2)) = 7"
 

Edited:
How to delete this post ? ) I understood that flight ignore any terrain, therefore models with flight do not use climb.

[Artifact]

On 5/6/2016 at 0:19 AM, solkan said:

What this means:

Thanks for taking the time to clarify. It was my fault for not following the context correctly.

[Goret]

This opens up so many questions.

So, lets say there is simple a Ht4 wall.  The model with WK 6 and flight is in base contact with the wall and wants to move to the opposite side of the wall.

1. does it just fly trough the wall 6" forward (like there is no wall) or
2. does it have to move 4" upwards and then 1" forward (falling 4" down for free without taking dmg) and is then allowed to take 1 more inch?

Is this FAQ only when you want fly to a higher ground or does this have be be taken into account in every horizontal move you take?

This whole FAQ would also have to be applied to "leap" right?

[santaclaws01]

43 minutes ago, Goret said:

This opens up so many questions.

So, lets say there is simple a Ht4 wall.  The model with WK 6 and flight is in base contact with the wall and wants to move to the opposite side of the wall.

1. does it just fly trough the wall 6" forward (like there is no wall) or
2. does it have to move 4" upwards and then 1" forward (falling 4" down for free without taking dmg) and is then allowed to take 1 more inch?

Is this FAQ only when you want fly to a higher ground or does this have be be taken into account in every horizontal move you take?

This whole FAQ would also have to be applied to "leap" right?

No. The wall is being ignored, unless you are explicitly not ignoring it. 

[solkan]

54 minutes ago, Goret said:

This opens up so many questions.

So, lets say there is simple a Ht4 wall.  The model with WK 6 and flight is in base contact with the wall and wants to move to the opposite side of the wall.

1. does it just fly trough the wall 6" forward (like there is no wall) or

Movement doesn't work differently just because the model is standing on the ground instead of standing on a wall.

So the model ignores its way through the wall moving six inches forward.  When the model moves in a straight line from its starting position to its ending position, and it's final position is the same elevation as its starting position (because it moved from a point on the ground to a point on the ground, or because it moved from the top of a Ht X scenery item to the top of a different Ht X scenery item) then you measure that straight line from the top-down perspective and that's your distance.

NB:  There's no such thing as a "double walk" except as a convenient way of saying "This is model is going to perform a walk to Point A.  Then it's going to perform a walk from there to Point B".  If a model wants to perform two walk actions to get somewhere, it performs each walk action completely before performing the second one, paying the movement costs separately.  So if a Wk 5 model with Flight wants to get to the other side of a Ht 20 building that's 6" wide.

 

54 minutes ago, Goret said:

2. does it have to move 4" upwards and then 1" forward (falling 4" down for free without taking dmg) and is then allowed to take 1 more inch?

Is this FAQ only when you want fly to a higher ground or does this have be be taken into account in every horizontal move you take?

Note the part in the FAQ where it also deals with losing elevation and falling.

Also, note the last sentence:

Quote

Incorporeal models move in the same way, though they may take falling damage if the end point of their move is on a lower Ht, depending on the terrain (see falling, Core Rulebook pg. 42).

and the first sentence of the previous question:

Quote

Models which fall due to a push, fall immediately (models also generally fall immediately during regular movement unless they have Flight or Incorporeal).

In other words, models with Flight and Incorporeal DON'T fall immediately during regular movement.  Instead, they they fall at the end of the movement because the FAQ says to figure out the elevation change at the end of movement.

And, more importantly:

Quote

A model with Flight ignores terrain for all purposes while moving.

Quote

Incorporeal models move in the same way, ...

That's why you're not climbing up and falling down on any of the intervening terrain.

 

54 minutes ago, Goret said:

This whole FAQ would also have to be applied to "leap" right?

Note the three effects:

Quote

Flight: This model is immune to falling damage and may ignore any terrain or models while moving.

Quote

(0) Leap (Ca 5 / TN: 10): This model immediately moves up to its Cg, ignoring intervening terrain and models during the move.

Quote

Incorporeal: This model ignores, and is ignored by, other models and terrain during any movement or push. Reduce all damage this model suffers from Sh and Ml Attack Actions by half.

The differences they do tell you about are:

1.  Flight ignores falling damage.

2.  Leap uses Cg instead of Wk.

3.  Incorporeal applies to pushes as well as Walk.

So, yeah, "ignoring terrain while moving" pretty much has to be "ignoring terrain while moving" and leap is going to ignore terrain in a similar manner to Incorporeal--taking falling damage for

Disclaimer:  I think the FAQ entry is missing an allowance to let modes move down in elevation without falling because it's worded to address Flight first and then mentions that Incorporeal works "similarly."  That should be an oversight, since there's not much point in using Incorporeal or Leap if models are going to be constantly falling and taking damage trying to go down. 

So falling due to ignoring terrain should only happen if distance+elevation change exceeds the movement allowance.  So a Cg 6 model shouldn't go leaping to the ground off of a Ht 20 building, but a Cg 5 model would be able to safely leap off of a Ht4 cliff with 1" of horizontal displacement (not counting the 2" of falling that everyone gets to ignore).

 

[lusciousmccabe]

5 hours ago, Goret said:

This opens up so many questions.

So, lets say there is simple a Ht4 wall.  The model with WK 6 and flight is in base contact with the wall and wants to move to the opposite side of the wall.

It effectively flies through the wall. It starts and ends at Ht 0 so there's no change in elevation to account for, so it can move the full 6" straight into the wall and out the other side. The only exception is enclosed terrain since if it's a Ht 4 building with a roof you can't end the move inside without some sort of physical entry point. 

Otherwise when measuring flying moves you only care about the displacement of the model from its start position and any change in Ht if it is positive. The route the model might take between those points is irrelevant, so feel free to pick your model up and swing it around making seagull noises before putting it back down on the table.

 

[Goret]

Awesome, thanks all for the detailed answers!

 

[trikk]

On 4.05.2016 at 0:17 AM, Justin said:

(1) Cleaver (Ml 6R / Rst: Df / Rg: y2): Target suffers 4/5/7 damage. After killing a model with this Attack, this model heals 2/3/4 damage.

There are two effects there, dealing damage to an enemy, and healing damage. If both effects had to be valid for the action to be taken, Killjoy would be unable to kill enemy models while at full health (as models at full health cannot heal, and the entire attack would fizzle). It would be detrimental to the game to rule in this way.

"Adrenaline +1: At the end of the
Turn, this model heals exactly 1 damage and
then lowers this Condition's value by 1."

 

So if Ironsides is at full health she doesn`t lower Adrenaline as she doesn`t heal?

[solkan]

6 minutes ago, trikk said:

"Adrenaline +1: At the end of the
Turn, this model heals exactly 1 damage and
then lowers this Condition's value by 1."

 

So if Ironsides is at full health she doesn`t lower Adrenaline as she doesn`t heal?

Unfortunately, no.  From the healing rules:

Quote

Models may be healed by an effect (instead of taking damage). Some effects heal a specific amount of damage, while others generate a healing flip. When an effect heals a model it increases the model’s current Wounds by the number indicated. Healing cannot raise a model’s current Wounds total above its starting Wounds stat. Any excess healed Wounds are discarded.

So she heals 1 damage, discarding it as excess, and then lowers Adrenaline by 1.

 

[trikk]

I am aware of that and thats how I played but that kind of contradicts Justin`s example about KJ and heal.

[solkan]

7 minutes ago, trikk said:

I am aware of that and thats how I played but that kind of contradicts Justin`s example about KJ and heal.

I'd like to point out that the statement about Killjoy was a "If we ruled it like this, it would be bad" counter example concerning a different point:

Quote

There are two effects there, dealing damage to an enemy, and healing damage. If both effects had to be valid for the action to be taken, Killjoy would be unable to kill enemy models while at full health (as models at full health cannot heal, and the entire attack would fizzle). It would be detrimental to the game to rule in this way.

In other words, a "Hypothetically, if we accepted this reasoning, bad things would result" chain.  Not anything presented as good examples to reason from.