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Theorycrafting changes in current models


trikk

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Captain Dashal - He just sucks on so many levels. Maybe if he were 7ss he may be justified. 

Sonnia Creed - I really don't think any model should be able to hit any stat above a 7 (maybe 8 in very rare instances) especially one with 14" range and 3AP to boot. I'm okay with confiscated lore in general but I don't think it should have been able to boost her Ca actions.

Fransisco - For the same reason as Sonnia. El Mayor is one of the most insane stat boost with a nigh negligible cost. It should drop at the end of the turn, only increase stats by 1 and have a discard price attached.

Special Mention: Austringers because they give no craps about anything. Probably a little too effective for their cost.

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My only concern with cuddling much in the faction is that even with crews of the very best Guild has to offer, its not a faction you see tearing up the ranks outside one player.  Dropping our better models might improve choice within the faction, but it doesn't deal with the absurd stuff that Outcasts, Neverborn, Gremlins and the rest have at their disposal.  Most of our lack of choice comes from things rather sorely in need of buffs.

Redesigning the Guard would be my top priority.  I don't just mean the base minion, but the whole kit with Riflemen/Sergeants/etc.  I'd even consider just dropping the trait off Austringers and Pathfinders and give them a slightly different designation as they seem slightly out of step with the rest.  I'd look to redo most of their support triggers to be from Guardsman models instead of their tendency to require a duplicate of themselves so that, for example, a Hound next to a Guild Guard would be significant, and the Guard would benefit from Patrol.  Design the thing as a cohesive whole along the lines of the Freikorps.

A lot of our Henchmen just suffer from being redundant without overpriced upgrades.  Franc's so good because he's cheaper and his upgrade is quite cheap too.  Sidir for example, really feels like he might be worth 9 SS with By Your Side.  Hopkins would substantially better if Witch Hunt was free with a discard on use design.  Ryle's almost there; his upgrad is hilariously bad though.  Really though all of them have the problem of being slight variations on the same all rounder design.  They need to each be given a niche to keep one from trumping the pile.

Those would be my priorities.  There will always be bad models but these are the things that I feel would benefit the game most seeing some love.

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21 hours ago, trikk said:

What? :huh:

 

As for Belles a Ca8 Lure with 2 belles means youre master can go 20" into the enemy line without a chance to respond. Ability which has to just tie with 2 built in suits AND Ca8 is unavoidable by most masters, let alone other models. I`d say Ca6 built in suits Lure will usually go off too, but at least you have a chance to use a high card to deny it.

Im joking :D saw a lot of people hating on the girls so thought id post the complete opposite of what people were saying. 

Still think belles are priced perfectly as is though. They dont need errata in any way. I always picture them as being a 5ss utility model and mind game piece; which i think is reasonable really. 

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24 minutes ago, MR TORGUE said:

Still think belles are priced perfectly as is though. They dont need errata in any way. I always picture them as being a 5ss utility model and mind game piece; which i think is reasonable really. 

I think they'd be fine without that discard Trigger, but probably should have Ca 7 also. It's too common you end up in a situation where you choose not to cheat to save on cards because they can easily beat you and they just drop a low crow to deplete your hand anyway. Not to mention how annoying it is when they flip a middling-high crow and you're losing cards regardless.

 

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15 hours ago, LunarSol said:

My only concern with cuddling much in the faction is that even with crews of the very best Guild has to offer, its not a faction you see tearing up the ranks outside one player.  Dropping our better models might improve choice within the faction, but it doesn't deal with the absurd stuff that Outcasts, Neverborn, Gremlins and the rest have at their disposal.  Most of our lack of choice comes from things rather sorely in need of buffs.

Redesigning the Guard would be my top priority.  I don't just mean the base minion, but the whole kit with Riflemen/Sergeants/etc.  I'd even consider just dropping the trait off Austringers and Pathfinders and give them a slightly different designation as they seem slightly out of step with the rest.  I'd look to redo most of their support triggers to be from Guardsman models instead of their tendency to require a duplicate of themselves so that, for example, a Hound next to a Guild Guard would be significant, and the Guard would benefit from Patrol.  Design the thing as a cohesive whole along the lines of the Freikorps.

A lot of our Henchmen just suffer from being redundant without overpriced upgrades.  Franc's so good because he's cheaper and his upgrade is quite cheap too.  Sidir for example, really feels like he might be worth 9 SS with By Your Side.  Hopkins would substantially better if Witch Hunt was free with a discard on use design.  Ryle's almost there; his upgrad is hilariously bad though.  Really though all of them have the problem of being slight variations on the same all rounder design.  They need to each be given a niche to keep one from trumping the pile.

Those would be my priorities.  There will always be bad models but these are the things that I feel would benefit the game most seeing some love.

I agree mostly.

 

I think Francisco is not taken because of the 8SS cost, but for El Mayor, Ml7 with Min damage 3 and Enfratente and Finesse/Hermanos. He`s basically a Bodyguard.

Sidir is picked for By Your Side, Promises so for being a bodyguard/support

Dashel is picked for Riflemen so for being a support.

Queeg also has his niche of 7SS henchman with possible Promises with quite nice mobility.

 

While I love the Judge I seriously have issues with finding room for him in the list as he doesn`t excel in anything. His Ca are 5, his upgrade makes him a 11SS model and requires suits to be worth it. Francisco is pretty comparable in CC (lower moderate damage but Ml7), Sidir is less tanky, but has a heal and better upgrades.

Same for Samuel. The Emissary might make him more worthy as he can help with his mobility, set things on fire and use Flaming Bullets, but I find Sam to be way overcosted.

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Quote

I'd look to redo most of their support triggers to be from Guardsman models instead of their tendency to require a duplicate of themselves so that, for example, a Hound next to a Guild Guard would be significant, and the Guard would benefit from Patrol.  Design the thing as a cohesive whole along the lines of the Freikorps.

This.

 

Would love to see an upgrade for lucy that represents his mask. While it's on, it works like a smaller badge of office that improves on his melee buff aura, and when it gets discarded, it is instead flipped over and he causes terrifying and improves his devil's deal and can be reset by the butler. It's would be as if his mask gets knocked off mid-fight to reveal a horrible visage and change his tactics.

 

Would like to see an upgrade that is basically the fanciest peacebringer the guild has to offer, with expensive gilding and soulstone components that can be given to a master (where it would be sh7) or a henchman (where it would be sh6). Not much use for Dita and Sonnia, but to be able to give Lady J and McCabe a solid ranged option, McMourning and Lucy something to fire themselves when hanging back-of-line playing the support game, and giving Hoff and option to loop a sh7 weapon.

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2 hours ago, Karolicker said:

This.

Would love to see an upgrade for lucy that represents his mask. While it's on, it works like a smaller badge of office that improves on his melee buff aura, and when it gets discarded, it is instead flipped over and he causes terrifying and improves his devil's deal and can be reset by the butler. It's would be as if his mask gets knocked off mid-fight to reveal a horrible visage and change his tactics.

Would like to see an upgrade that is basically the fanciest peacebringer the guild has to offer, with expensive gilding and soulstone components that can be given to a master (where it would be sh7) or a henchman (where it would be sh6). Not much use for Dita and Sonnia, but to be able to give Lady J and McCabe a solid ranged option, McMourning and Lucy something to fire themselves when hanging back-of-line playing the support game, and giving Hoff and option to loop a sh7 weapon.

I like all of these ideas. But the idea of looping Sh7 makes me giggle out loud, a lot. Which means it is probably a very bad idea. A very very very bad wonderful idea. A wonderful idea. I'm still laughing. A lot. Probably a very bad idea for balance. And because it is a very good idea otherwise to give Lady J her pistol back, McCabe something to shoot for damage instead of conditions, and Lucius a reliable sniping attack (what, you think he'd bother dirtying his own hands?) I don't want the idea to be ignored altogether just because I'm tickled. TL;DR: Sh7 is probably too high so ask for a Sh6.

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19 hours ago, Karolicker said:

The rub is that it inhabits one of his upgrade slots. I like to imagine Hoff carting a peacebringer around wondering 'Why am I holding this? I could have brought my remote mines.'

Depending on triggers, this upgrade could add another dimension to sam, queeg, francisco and sebastian.

Has anyone ever had success with remote mines? 

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I've been thinking a lot about how to fix lucius and the main thing I came up with is to scrub his limitations.   Get rid of the once per model limit on his issue command.   Same with the one per turn on Lackeys.  Even let him do his thing with austringers.   I still don't think he would be tier one but he wouldn't be bottom if the pile anymore. 

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I think the Elite Training is a little bit confusing. A training that suddenly disappears once the masters isn't by your side any more seems a bit inefficent ( just for the wording). Also similar bubbles ( Nicodem ...) have a significant higher range which would synergize better with his mobility.

I agree for Issue command for Austringers would be good and not at all OP option as Austringers can, if i remember correctly, also profit from McCabes Badge of Speed which grants Nimble and a possibility to reactivate. Equally efficent and in my mind easier to pull off.

I would greatly appreciate him to have at least two good options for (0) Actions, maybe making what lackeys are for a (0) and remove the suit requirement of hidden sniper.

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A couple of models have already been touched on, but I'd like to see the Pale Rider and its compatriots receive 0SS upgrades to turn them up a notch.

I think on the face of it they're pretty good except perhaps against stuff that gets to ignore or turn off Df triggers, but they still feel like they're 1-2SS higher than they'd want to be for people to consider them a regular option alongside other high-cost stuff in their faction. The Mech Rider is a little better than its peers in this regard since it gets to start summoning models t2, but given that it's a bit weaker in combat and its stuff comes in at ~2 wounds, I don't see a problem with it. Heck, I'd even be ok with the 0SS upgrades being cross-faction, it's not like a Levi Rider list is going to be appreciably more broken compared to his other options.

Plus the Pale Rider looks sweet and I want to play it more often :)

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On 2016/5/1 at 7:58 AM, 4thstringer said:

I've been thinking a lot about how to fix lucius and the main thing I came up with is to scrub his limitations.   Get rid of the once per model limit on his issue command.   Same with the one per turn on Lackeys.  Even let him do his thing with austringers.   I still don't think he would be tier one but he wouldn't be bottom if the pile anymore. 

The problem with fixing Lucius that way is that the per-model limitation is part of his design description--command many different models instead of commanding the same model more than once.

It'd be better to change Lucius to command multiple minions per AP, through combinations of abilities and triggers.

 

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Yeah, I did notice that as one of the key distinctions between him and say Colette in the early days before it became apparent that he also just sucks. I'd totally be in favour of loosening some limitations though, his whole design is excessively cautious. 

From what I can see he changed heavily to remove an element of his v1.5 incarnation which revolved around out-activating, walking up, dropping an Austringer and then pumping 5-8 raptor shots at someone from out of a building with a much stronger elite training. In second ed they toned down every component of this synergy while also flat-out denying it with the non-Austringer and once per turn clauses. One of these changes probably would have done the trick, but IIRC he saw fairly little playtest in the open Beta while the anti-Austringer crowd were quite vocal.

In hindsight they probably could have kept him more of his v1.5 mechanics and he'd have a distinct playstyle without breaking anything. 

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36 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Yeah, I did notice that as one of the key distinctions between him and say Colette in the early days before it became apparent that he also just sucks. I'd totally be in favour of loosening some limitations though, his whole design is excessively cautious. 

From what I can see he changed heavily to remove an element of his v1.5 incarnation which revolved around out-activating, walking up, dropping an Austringer and then pumping 5-8 raptor shots at someone from out of a building with a much stronger elite training. In second ed they toned down every component of this synergy while also flat-out denying it with the non-Austringer and once per turn clauses. One of these changes probably would have done the trick, but IIRC he saw fairly little playtest in the open Beta while the anti-Austringer crowd were quite vocal.

In hindsight they probably could have kept him more of his v1.5 mechanics and he'd have a distinct playstyle without breaking anything. 

So, I've never played 1.5, and I've been avoiding looking at the 1.5 rules very much.  I bought the PDFs for the stories and I've been ignoring the model stats.  But, after looking at Mk 1 Lucius...

"Lucius activates, spends all of his AP making another model shoot, then sacrifices someone, and reactivates.  Then uses all of his AP to make that model shoot some more.  And then summons up a clone of the model to set up next turn's combo."

What is that, a Warmachine Mk I model design?  ;)  That's also not the sort of sequence that you can go "We're going to increase this model from henchman to master, so it has one more AP each activation, and everything will be fine."

 

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

So, I've never played 1.5, and I've been avoiding looking at the 1.5 rules very much.  I bought the PDFs for the stories and I've been ignoring the model stats.  But, after looking at Mk 1 Lucius...

"Lucius activates, spends all of his AP making another model shoot, then sacrifices someone, and reactivates.  Then uses all of his AP to make that model shoot some more.  And then summons up a clone of the model to set up next turn's combo."

What is that, a Warmachine Mk I model design?  ;)  That's also not the sort of sequence that you can go "We're going to increase this model from henchman to master, so it has one more AP each activation, and everything will be fine."

 

Meh, he wasn't particularly outrageous by 1.5 standards. The sacrifice for reactivate seems more powerful if you're thinking M2E model counts and he came with either a restricted hiring pool or a hefty SS cost. So he wasn't super competitive, but you could still run him fairly happily and in particular situations he was great. Also, he essentially had 3 AP before which means Henchman Lucius usually did as much or more than the master version in an activation.

Obviously I'm not starting a campaign to bring back the old Lucius, just pointing out that a lot of his failings are due to losing abilities that might not have worked in 2nd Ed and having them replaced with watered down versions of the same thing. Other models had much more drastic design changes (The Dreamer and Collodi among them as it happens) but I think they had more put into making sure the new versions worked, while Lucius mostly got a list of caveats. 

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The guardsmen (esp. including Dashel) need sorted: I think if they were better then Lucius might perform better by proxy. I like that they all have a gimmick, but I don't like they are generally too weak for their gimmick. All the henchmen need a bit of a sorting. And Lucius needs his mask: I love the idea of The Scribe picking it up after it's been discarded so he can reattach it too

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19 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

Lucius's Emissary - Instead of Back Stab and Minion Heal, give him a +2 to Ca and 0 action to declare 1 suit that becomes built for him. 

Dashel - Give him actual supporting Tactical Actions. 

All Guardsman models - Lower SS cost by 1. 

With you on Lucius' Emmissary and Dashel but lowering the ss cost on every guardsman must be a joke.

Guild guard would probably be worth their stones if they had a single point higher attack values, possibly also +1 walk.

Riflemen should be harder to kill than bayou gremlins but just a point of defence and a point of armour would probably fix them. A (0) push would definetly make them amazingly good since they could then disengage or go peekaboo from a safe spot.

Sergeants are sort of wonky. Their walk buff feels like it corrects something that should probably have been on every guardsmans profile from the start. 

Both Austringers and Pathfinders I find are super solid for their cost already and Wardens feel ok too.

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Make it a very short (0) push then, maybe even just 2" *, so there's a less than mostly-successful chance the riflemen can push out of combat. Or heck, stick THAT option as a guardsman passive aura on Dashel, see what happens. But I am starting to think that the camp of "redesign all guardsmen and Dashel/Lucius may become usable" have the better point. It's worth repeating what LunarSol said: any bonus that requires 2x guardsmen should just require the guardsman characteristic and not an identical model.

And to go way back in the thread, the only time I got use out of remote mines was against a Ramos player who had ground the game to a halt for ten minutes due to not grasping the difference between armor and Hoffman's defensive trigger, after complaining for five minutes that I'd brought Hoffman at all, again, totally tired of fighting him. I regret nothing. (Except, maybe, missing 1.5 altogether.)

Edited by Gnomezilla
*so they can push out of 1" melee engagement, but not 2"+
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1 hour ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I solute you for this ballsy quick-fix solution. Because let's face it, you could cram 60SS of guardsmen into a list and they'd still be crap. 

Shoot, I'd take 16 Guardsmen a game with lucius just to see how it goes.  Unless the schemes had 2 of these three: show of force, hunting party, and a quick murder.

Edited by 4thstringer
Gratuitous cursing for no reason.
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