how i would fix lucius

[SpiralngCadavr]

Nope. But, if they're not going to make errata on weak pieces, and they're not going to give masters new upgrades, and considering he's cross-faction so generic upgrades probably wouldn't fully solve the problem, it would have been a way to improve him. About all you have other than that is a mimic/guardsman, but then you're still faced with how it makes him run better than his competing minion-mancers.

[AverageBoss]

Just throwing in that I don't think Wyrd is 100% opposed to errataing existing models. Actually they did a pretty significant errata to metal gamin no too long ago. I do however think the errata is the last ditch thing Wyrd want to use to fix things, and upgrades are the preferred method.

[SpiralngCadavr]

AFAIK, they've only ever done it when there's an actual error or to make an overpowered piece worse, never to make a bad piece better.

[solkan]

So, while browsing through things to find somewhere where it was stated that one of the uses of upgrades would be to improve models, I came across this:

Quote

Lucius

Lucius is a control master who turns his AP into AP for his crew. This is another master archetype, and it can be seen in masters like Zoraida. However, Lucius puts a spin on this archetype by specializing in allowing a number of smaller models to take numerous actions, where a master like Zoraida will prefer to obey one or two heavy hitters over and over again.

Lucius has an ability that allows him to target a friendly minion within 18” after he performs a walk action. The target minion must pass a Horror Duel. If it succeeds, it gets to take a (1) action. In this way, even Lucius’s walk actions can turn into AP for his crew, and it creates a very flavorful feeling on the tabletop, as even his own crew is terrified of him. Of course, Lucius has a number of other fun tricks, he also excels at accomplishing objectives and placing Scheme Markers, but I’ll let you read those for yourself in the beta.

How does Lucius "allow a number of smaller models to take numerous actions"? 

What would I do to change Lucius?  Delete the word Walk from Commanding Presence and add "other than Charge".

Quote

Commanding Presence: After completing an Walk Action other than Charge, this model may target a friendly Minion model within 18" and LoS. The target must pass a TN 13 Horror Duel. If it succeeds, the target may immediately take a (1) Action.

Then almost everything that Lucius does is a (1) Action for a different minion, and you actually get closer to "numerous" actions, especially if the upgrade making the change added some trivial (0) Action so that Lucius becomes "In addition to whatever you're doing, here's 4 or 5 AP from minions that you have to use cards to reliably use." 

That would be able to be accomplished using an upgrade with wording like: "The Commanding Presence Ability applies to all non-Charge actions instead of just Walk." (or non-Charge Tactical Action, to keep Secret Objectives out of the way) and maybe add some way of lowering the target number in Commanding Presence.

That seems like it would accomplish making Lucius better than anyone else at commanding a bunch of minions to do stuff.  Because no one else would be able to activate and potentially produce 12 to 15 AP performed by minions (counting the triggers on Issue Commands).

 

Makes me wish I could go back in time and grab all of the files for the public beta instead of just being able to see the before and after versions... 

[izikial]

I love wyrd as a company but I think they would benefit having some one doing public relations and getting answered to hot button topics, I'm sure they do read what we say, but we don't often hear feedback

[admiralvorkraft]

I think they are probably really tired of hearing about how bad Lucius is.

I mean, I'm pretty tired of if and anyone who has been around the forums for a while knows I've started rant-threads of my own. Wyrd is well aware of the problems with him, as is everyone who plays the game.

I can get some work out of him with Hunters, Lawyers, and the right scheme pool. Guild has some substantially better minions now than we did in wave 1/2 so that helps, and frankly he's never been that bad in Neverborn. Yes he's worse than Collodi (and even the Dreamer) but he has some corner-case advantages over them and, lets face it, those masters are both pretty busted in the first place.

I would say that Neverborn Lucius is probably at least on par with Neverborn Zoraida, and significantly worse than Grem-raida, but that's largely a factor of her being able to hire Rooster Riders so...

[izikial]

we shouldn't be bored of hearing about how broken he is as he should have been fixed or at least a comment from wyrd saying "we know he is struggling and we are looking to correct this with a future releas" or "we think he is in a good place from internal testing and our data shows a roughly 50% win rate" or words to that effect, but insted we get nothing, leaving Lucius fans feeling unloved and I personally am tyred of going into a game knowing I have handicaped my self with more work for less payoff.

if they said we have no intended patch and are happy, I would be sad but at least I would know were I stand

and yes I know there are so many divers interactions that the next book is sure to affect him, but withought them recognising his issues I have no hope of him improving, as I said above, his emissary upgrade shows that wyrd arnt sure/dont want to do what is needed to fix him

the souring point for me is Tara, she was recognised as week so she got a fix for Karina and for the nothing beast, then she still didnt have good support so got a hench

[Durza]

12 hours ago, solkan said:

So, while browsing through things to find somewhere where it was stated that one of the uses of upgrades would be to improve models, I came across this:

How does Lucius "allow a number of smaller models to take numerous actions"? 

What would I do to change Lucius?  Delete the word Walk from Commanding Presence and add "other than Charge".

Then almost everything that Lucius does is a (1) Action for a different minion, and you actually get closer to "numerous" actions, especially if the upgrade making the change added some trivial (0) Action so that Lucius becomes "In addition to whatever you're doing, here's 4 or 5 AP from minions that you have to use cards to reliably use." 

That would be able to be accomplished using an upgrade with wording like: "The Commanding Presence Ability applies to all non-Charge actions instead of just Walk." (or non-Charge Tactical Action, to keep Secret Objectives out of the way) and maybe add some way of lowering the target number in Commanding Presence.

That seems like it would accomplish making Lucius better than anyone else at commanding a bunch of minions to do stuff.  Because no one else would be able to activate and potentially produce 12 to 15 AP performed by minions (counting the triggers on Issue Commands).

 

Makes me wish I could go back in time and grab all of the files for the public beta instead of just being able to see the before and after versions... 

I like that idea, although with all those horror duels going around he could probably use something to clear paralyze, maybe an aura or action like the Freikorp specialist, call it "I'm not mad, just disappointed."

[lusciousmccabe]

I think Zoraida easily trumps Lucius in terms of versatility if not power. With her you can at least build your list around the models you want. 

You could probably do something better with another master most of the time, but at least you don't have to warp your list to so she can do something she isn't even that good at.

[izikial]

1 minute ago, Durza said:

I like that idea, although with all those horror duels going around he could probably use something to clear paralyze, maybe an aura or action like the Freikorp specialist, call it "I'm not mad, just disappointed."

I thematicly like the idea that that would remove paralysis and give slow insted

[SpiralngCadavr]

21 minutes ago, izikial said:

the souring point for me is Tara, she was recognised as week so she got a fix for Karina and for the nothing beast, then she still didnt have good support so got a hench

I wouldn't be that sour about her henchman- the scion's pretty questionable . OTOH, I never thought Tara was very weak, it just happened that her two enforcers were terribly overpriced.

But, yeah. Lucius probably needed it more than another master's totem.

[necroon]

I'd think he would be interesting if he was changed to summon a generic changeling that he then turned into Guard models: Sort of like a Karai for guardsmen. Have the mimic he summons be a fast objective type grabber with low Wounds, Defense, and Willpower (Maybe the Changelings?) that he can then "summon" into a guardsmen.

This gives him a unique way to position some of the slower Guardsmen models and has a very neat them to it. Maybe even consider only being able to do so if enemy models (or possibly even models without the mimic characteristic!) can't draw LOS to them. Sort of like he's replacing the masses with Mimics / Doppelgangers.

I don't know: just spit balling / rambling. Either way yeah: I definitely feel like he needs something and I'd love to take him but every time I build him a crew (In Neverborn) I end up swapping him out at the last minute because the crew would do better with someone else at the helm. 

[Pikciwok]

We can always share our opinions how we would like to change the game (i.e. I would like summoner Pandora - releasing the Sorrows from her Box) but I think some of you who demand fixing Lucius are missing the point. The argument that he should be fixed because Collodi/Dreamer/Other Master is better is IMHO invalid. There are four strategies and six main schemes in the game, but 7 masters in every faction. It's impossible to find a perfect niche for every Master. Lucius offers us a few scheme marker tricks and bigger hiring pool. That's it.

There would be a real problem if Lucius wouldn't be able to achieve victory. I doubt that's an issue.

Personally I would like to try Lucius with Changelings (hired or summoned), two Pathfinders, and a model with Lure. Two opportunity attacks against the lured target (one copied from the clockwork trap, another from Suprise!) sounds great.
Or The Illuminated with hard to wound (Lawyers).
Or maybe a list that abuses Black Blood Pustule?  (Shamans + Hounds)

As long as he's playable - I'm satisfied. If you like a rocky road to victory - play Lucius. If you're not - there are other masters.

[izikial]

the reason we want a change is because in any competitive environment Lucius will not win, its been said on hear numerous times that by trying to eek out every advantage you end with a master that requires more from a player than any othere master and gives you a 15% win rate

the collodi/dreamer comparison is because in the same faction you have masters who have a unique style but who use the same idea of minion power but win games.

in the literal sense dose Lucius work? Yes he has rules that make him not a rules nightmare.

can Lucius win? Yes but only realy when an opponent is new or uninformed. Wining from a gotcha moment is neither satisfying or honourable

but then you ask the more probing questions, is there any reason to use Lucius in either faction, no he is worse then all 12 othere masters

has he ever I placed top 10 in a competitive fixed master environment, no

has he ever been used by some one placing top 10 in a fixed faction environment, no

he is a mess of unsupported ideas

with the age old question of what dose this master ask of me. He asks more than any othere master in the game, compare this to his potential power and there is a huge disparity

[Ludvig]

@Pikciwok I think we must have different definitions of playable. I agree that Lucius doesn't need to be "best" at any given aspect but he needs to have about the same win chance as every other master.

The game has taken several concious steps to move away from "fun and quirky but sometimes imbalanced" and approach "hardcore competative" in the form of gaining grounds and the exclusion of avatars from the normal rules. We need to remember that avatars were intended to be tournament legal but were made campaign exclusive since they weren't balanced enough to fit into the "normal" way to play Malifaux. Given the above, I think any master should be balanced against the others to be considered officially playable. Itis my honest opinion that isn't the case and I think that's detrimental to the ambition of making the game competative.

Just to clarify: I am not demanding anything from anyone. I am more and more moving to the point where I think miniature games should discourage competative play instead of actively promoting it and move back towards being a hobby primarily built on having fun. I also think the competative aspect is primarily being pushed by the player base and not the designers since less balance would give the designers more design freedom.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah, he's playable in the sense that the game doesn't break when he hits the field but I once said to my friend "Lucius is grand if you think of yourself as not having a master" which I thought of as being a compliment at the time, but was actually an awful condemnation.

From the perspective of being a reasonable choice in any scheme/strategy pool I'd say he's unplayable really. You basically run Lucius because you love him, want to deliberately handicap yourself, or some combination of the two. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, Lucius is pretty darn weak. I play him only because I like the theme and want him to work. And I expect I only win with him as much as I do because I'm more experienced in my meta than most.

And I don't care about perfect balance (it will never reasonably occur in any system with variable selection), but I do think there's a huge difference between an obvious low-end or situational range, and a unanimously considered competitively terrible choice.

[izikial]

a small note, I wasn't in wave 4 beta and I'm assuming some level of nda as i have seen no talk about it at all, so there may be something coming

[Freman]

I have the metal Lucius set, so no Scribe, but I do have the Puppet Wars Lucius as well and was thinking he'd make a cool "Mini-Me" Scribe.

Although now I'm thinking of Lucius as Dr Evil.

"I shall call him... Mini-Me."

[izikial]

19 minutes ago, Freman said:

I have the metal Lucius set, so no Scribe, but I do have the Puppet Wars Lucius as well and was thinking he'd make a cool "Mini-Me" Scribe.

Although now I'm thinking of Lucius as Dr Evil.

"I shall call him... Mini-Me."

use the pale rider but convert it to be your "laser"

[Freman]

Unfortunately I don't have that model.  

I bought a random selection of the metals, and he was in it.