Rate Masters into tiers

[Stryder]

Just need to point out - I am not Blutak. I am the previous Master, not the current one.

 

Also, I regularly play against MythicFOX, and have met InsidiouslyMad in many torunaments, both of them extremely good Arcanist players. I also dabble in them myself. I seriously doubt you could change my views on Feng or Kaeris. Even the others listed above don't think much of them.

[Adran]

Stryder is not the reigning Master, he's last years Master, Ant.

I'm surprised by Lilith and Viks on his list.

 

Since I'm now posting here, this is my tiering, based either on my playing with or against.

 

Top - Kirai, levi

2nd Marcus, Lileth, Dreamer, McCabe

3rd Sonnia, Molly, Ramos, Colette, Jack, Viks, Ulix, Pandora, Lynch

4th McMorning (guild) Perdita Rasputina,  Kaeris, Seamus, Yan Lo, Collodi, Sommer, Wong, Ophelia

5th Justice, Nicodem, McMorning (resser),  Zoraida, Von shill, Misaki

6th, Hoffman, Tara, mei Feng, brewmaster, Hamlin, 

7th Ironside, Lucius. 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Ah, yeah, you got a new Master - sorry about that (I thought "aah blutac" in Katadders's post was akin to "ah, damn!"  )

[Math Mathonwy]

Cool list, Adran!

Surprised By Perdita, most of the Gremlins (also, no Mah), Nico, and Hamelin (this one is the most surprising, I think).

But I would've honestly been very disappointed if your list didn't include any curve balls  

[trikk]

I believe the conclusions from this post are the following:

 

1) The master tiers are pretty meta-player dependant

2) cuddle Leveticus and Kirai

[Adran]

I haven't seen enough of Mah to rate her yet, (And I just realised that I hadn't added her), but from the little I've seen and what I think she is probably about 5ht tier. 

Perdita is a master I never seem to have trouble facing, so don't rate her that high once you know what she does. She is one that new players start with, and the horrors of trying to deal with a Df 9 master scar their entire malifaux life so they think she is a lot better than she is. (Or at least thast how it seems to me). 

I can't play Niocodem. Every time I try he falls down horribly. Almost every time I've faced him, I've done well. But He ought to be higher than I can get him to be. 

Some of the gremlin masters might well be due a tier promotion, I could see Ulix as a 2, and Sommer and Wong as a 3. 

Hamlin is probably better that I've put him, but I don't think he lives up to the hype to well. But then I've always thought that about him, even back in first edition. 5th tier perhaps. 

 

I'd agree that McMorning is the only Duel faction master that really plays significantly differently between the two factions. His Resser version might actually be as good as the guild version if more people stopped focusing on the poison route of it, but When I see a McMorning crew with Transfusion, I normally think I'm going to do well in that game

 

I'd also say that you can  beat masters from about 3 or 4 tiers above you if the game suits the lower rated rather than the higher rated, assuming equal skill. 

 

 

 

 

[daniello_s]

I thought Resser Mourning with his insane pushes and Flesh Construct summon-factory is better than you are saying guys.

Our local Resser player (best of us here in the Ireland I can add) is running him so efficiently I really don't know what to think about it. (not to mention when he uses Kirai...;))

[katadder]

34 minutes ago, Stryder said:

Just need to point out - I am not Blutak. I am the previous Master, not the current one.

 

Also, I regularly play against MythicFOX, and have met InsidiouslyMad in many torunaments, both of them extremely good Arcanist players. I also dabble in them myself. I seriously doubt you could change my views on Feng or Kaeris. Even the others listed above don't think much of them.

fair enough, to each their own. unfortunately cant take either to next tourney as not painted and heartfaux requires painting

[Stryder]

Don't forget it also depends on what a master is capable of. Von Schill is a perfect example of a solid master with little use. If you want to hit things, take Viks. If you want control, take Jack. If you want to move, take Misaki. If you want to tank, take Levi. If you want to out-activate, take Hamelin. What does that leave? A Jack-of-all trades? Hamelin or Jack himself can do that better, too.

Speaking in terms of the Meta (a term I use with much trepidation, because as far as I'm concerned the 'current meta' should largely be ignored and you should use what you are comfortable using and concentrate on getting the most out of that instead of using what everyone else tells you to, failing spectacularly and then whining about it to everyone on forum sites), remember that it is something like a big game of Rock-Paper-Scissors. It's constantly changing into something else. The masters I listed as competitive have the flexibility and capability to adapt to the Meta as it shifts, as well as being able to adapt and change strategy/tactics in game as the situation changes, thus making them more sensible choices.

[Nical]

Because my meta is small and I have "One faction for One Game" rule, I focus on Neverborn. And my standard of tier is not "How can he/she beat opponents" but "How can he/she adapt to situations"

 

Tier 1 - Dreamer, Collodi, Lilith

I think Dreamer is always one of Tier 1 master in M2E and he get good non-nightmare minions now. But he needs to watch out some threats can ignore his triggers. 

 

Collodi get good minions like Bunraku and Changeling. Changeling is a very useful toolbox minion and Bunraku is a good mid-cost minion and good substitute for marionettes in some situations.

 

Lilith get new nephilims by starter box, so she can use more tactical resources.

 

Tier 2 - Pandora, Lynch, Zoraida

Pandora is Pandora. Her Wp Attacks and denials are Brutal, but I don't think new models give more tactical choice to her like Collodi, because she is self-centered master.

 

Lynch is good master, but he is up to brilliance theme and I think new neverborn models don't have good synergy with brilliance except emissary. 

 

Zoraida have good denials and obey, so she is useful control master. But I think problems about her squishness and opponent's condition removal are not solved yet.

 

Tier 3 - Lucius

I sometimes think Lucius may not become "Tier 1" as Neverborn, because Neverborn have another minion-focused rivals. Dreamer and Collodi. And they can do more things(Summoning / Denial) than Lucius. 

 

So I like to take some austringers and doppleganger for poor lucius. 

[LunarSol]

For a single faction 3 tiers generally gives you a good idea of which Masters you should rely on, which Masters have useful tools you should have in your belt and which Masters are... well... generally just more limited.  I can see the need for further tiers when they're combined together, but I think 5 generally gets the job done, as its basically taking the 3 tiers from each faction and making a special bracket for the best of the best and worst of the worst.  I actually quite like Adran's list when I combine tier 2+3 and 5+6 for example:

Top - Kirai, levi

2nd Marcus, Lileth, Dreamer, McCabe, Sonnia, Molly, Ramos, Colette, Jack, Viks, Ulix, Pandora, Lynch

3rd McMorning (guild), Perdita, Rasputina,  Kaeris, Seamus, Yan Lo, Collodi, Sommer, Wong, Ophelia

4th Justice, Nicodem, McMorning (resser),  Zoraida, Von shill, Misaki, Hoffman, Tara, mei Feng, brewmaster, Hamlin, 

5th Ironside, Lucius.

That works pretty well for me on the idea of:

Top - Maybe in need of a cuddle

2nd - Go to competitive choices

3rd - Situationally powerful choices

4th - Slightly underwhelming choices

5th - Probably in need of some TLC

[Kadeton]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I can't play Niocodem. Every time I try he falls down horribly. Almost every time I've faced him, I've done well. But He ought to be higher than I can get him to be.

Man, I hear that, but not with Nicodem. For me it's Colette. She was my first Master back in M1E and I really, really want to like her, and lots of people rave about how powerful she is, but she just doesn't work for me. (Or against me, in the games I've played I can't remember losing to Colette.)

On the subject of Nicodem, I think he's one of the most overrated Masters. That's not to say he's weak at all, but a lot of people put him on a kind of pedestal of godly power and he's really pretty middle-of-the-road.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I'd agree that McMorning is the only Duel faction master that really plays significantly differently between the two factions. His Resser version might actually be as good as the guild version if more people stopped focusing on the poison route of it, but When I see a McMorning crew with Transfusion, I normally think I'm going to do well in that game.

The different hiring pools make Guild Lucius very different to Neverborn Lucius, but everyone here seems to hate him either way.

I've recently started focusing on Ressers, and I've found McMourning to be absolutely incredible. I've got a tournament on Saturday, so we'll see how that goes.

[Myyrä]

3 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

On the subject of Nicodem, I think he's one of the most overrated Masters. That's not to say he's weak at all, but a lot of people put him on a kind of pedestal of godly power and he's really pretty middle-of-the-road.

I feel like Nicodem relies too much on control hand to be able to win reliably, which is why he will rarely be seen winning any larger tournaments.

[admiralvorkraft]

I've come to rate Guild McMourning pretty highly for alpha scheming. He just pumps out markers and interacts extremely efficiently while being enough of a personal threat to contribute to board control. He has won me a couple games against a very competitive Dreamer player, for what that's worth.

Granted, I probably could have won those games with Sonnia too, but they would have looked VERY different.

[tomjoad]

I can't believe how many lists are leaving off the best 10 Thunders Master altogether. I know the faction hasn't earned a ton of respect yet, but I think Shenlong should be at least on a level with McCabe.

[huntroll]

Quite surprised how low Resser McMourning is on some people's list, half a year or so ago in a similar thread he was considered top tier. What happened? Is it GG2016 (which seems to suit Guild McM quite well)?

[Adran]

Doh, I forgot Shenlong as well. Similar to my Comments on Mah, I've not seen him enough. (Funnily enough the 2 of them are on my painting table at the moment waiting for a try). Probably mid table. I'd guess probably 4. He might just warrent a 3 on my 7 tier system, but I don't think he'd make tier 2 on the 5 tier version

But I don't think I've taken GG2016 into consideration. It might have a few tier changes, but probably not a huge amount of overall difference, as unless its the ability to do line in the sand with ease, its only a situation improvement, and as a general guideline the tier is mainly due to the ability to adapt to the situation. (or alter the situation to a better one for you)

I find that largely the Guild Lucius and Neverborn Lucius play styles are fairly similar. And they seem to be a similar power level. Where as Moonlighting typically makes for a very different way of playing McMorning, and the guild version supporting the probably more powerful Guild models, just seems better than the resser summoning version of him. I'm not sure if the typical resser model is as good to support as a similaly costed Guild model, because the ressers are paying for durabiltiy, and resummonableness where as the guild are probably paying for damage and force projection. 

You'll also find that there are a lot fewer threads about at the moment about the scary power of McMorning and summoning 5 flesh constructs a game whilst killing everything he faces. I think that is because more players know how to face him, and so his trick isn't seen as strong now as it was a year ago. 

 

 

[Red Moon Head]

21 hours ago, Stryder said:

The masters I listed as competitive have the flexibility and capability to adapt to the Meta as it shifts, as well as being able to adapt and change strategy/tactics in game as the situation changes, thus making them more sensible choices.

This line alone makes me wonder why people don't rate Som'er higher!? He's so damn adaptable

[PanzerHarris]

I'll offer my personal take on things - I certainly don't have Stryder's or Blutack's ability to beat the best, but have taken out 6 tournaments now and played in a stupid number of events overall.

Again, this essay is my personal view. This game is all about perspectives. Take Lady Justice - most people say she's awful, but she's one of my strongest Masters.

Guild

Top tier - McCabe

Competitive - Perdita, Sonnia, Justice, Hoffman

Just no - McMourning, Lucius

Speaking personally, McCabe is one of the most all-round Masters I think I've seen. He can quite cheerfully do the support routine by throwing around upgrades, using the netgun and providing Promises. But he can also change gear and use his mobility and big sword himself to really bring the pain.

Perdita, I can't get her to work. I can see what she does and she's a consummate noob-stomper, but a skilled player is able to dismantle the Family and nullify her. Sonnia is a brilliant casting Master but suffers from the same weaknesses as others of her ilk. I really rate Justice and have won two tournaments using her solely - if you can deliver her successfully and pick a crew around her, she will throw a spanner (OK, a huge sword) into the enemy plans. And Hoffman can be hard-countered with the relic hammers, but every time someone's tried that against me one of the big robots has flattened the hammer wielder early.

Never won a game with Guild McMourning despite an awful lot of trying. Lucius makes me so sad - his fluff and the idea of him is just amazing. But try and make it come together on the tabletop, and then look at other support Masters like Colette or even Hoffman, and you wonder why you're trying so hard to push sh*t uphill.

Ressers

Top tier - McMourning, Molly

Competitive - Nicodem, Seamus, Kirai (borderline top tier), Tara (borderline just no)

Just no - Yan Lo

A well-played Resser McMourning is a juggernaut of Poison, Flesh Constructs and Canine Remains. Being able to summon and benefit from better synergies with Resser models, in my opinion, makes the Resser version of the Doc one of the best out there. Molly is just a summoning beast and she is so hard to get at - if she's not throwing cards to reduce damage then she's being pulled and pushed around by Belles and Sybelle. Reactivating models and putting enemy models on negative flips for a turn, all for 0s, is almost the icing on the cake...

Nico drops down for two reasons - if he's killed his crews tend to fall apart, and of himself he doesn't offer as much as Molly does. Kirai drops because she can be countered. Much like Hoffman and his Constructs hate relic hammers, her crews get torn apart by casters. Resser Tara can be strong in the right hands - there are a couple of players in the UK who have demonstrated what she can do popping Rogue Necromancies and Punk Zombies around.

Sorry, but I don't Fear the Beard at all. Never seen him in action and thought 'wow, that's great'.

Arcanists

Top tier - Colette, Rasputina, Ramos

Competitive - Marcus, Kaeris

Just no - Ironsides, Mei Feng

Colette is pure filth. Rasputina is my highest-rated caster because of what her crew offers her - I've been on the wrong end of Ant's alpha strike Raspy and speed was not an issue, and having played Mr Bursnell so often I have a healthy respect for blasting at right-angles. Ramos is up there because again he's such an all-rounder but he can also bring in Significant minions.

I love Marcus but it's such a crew of glass cannons, and if your opponent has seen the tricks it's harder to pull them off. Kaeris has so many strings to her bow that it's not a case of what she does herself necessarily, but what she enables her crew to do.

Ironsides... When Joel Henry gives up on a Master because even he can't break her, it's probably a lost cause. And Mei Feng is one of very few Masters that I beat first time I played against her, even with all her tricks up and running. Really don't rate her.

Neverborn

Top tier - Lilith, Dreamer, Collodi

Competitive - Lynch

Just no - Zoraida, Lucius

Banned - Pandora

Given half a chance I would ban Pandora. Playing against a good Pandora player is such a negative experience that I feel it goes against what Malifaux is about. Yes, there are counters. But she's still incredibly difficult to deal with even if you have them.

Joel, Mr Piskosz and others have proved just how strong Lilith is. I find summoning Dreamer boring to play with and against but I can't dispute the effectiveness. And Collodi is the new hotness, and also really strong. Reducing an enemy model to 1AP and then controlling that AP yourself is horrible. And a special mention to My Will-ed Stitched who are benefitting from Fear Not the Sword from Brutal Effigy.

Zoraida and Lucius are support Masters in a faction that has Collodi, who can do everything they can't and really makes his crew sing.

Outcasts

Top tier - Leveticus, Jack Daw

Competitive - Viktorias, von Schill, Hamelin

Just no - Tara, Misaki

Leveticus is the filth. Can't argue with that having played with and against him. That hiring pool is amazing and he gains so much by jumping around off other models. Jack Daw can be incredibly frustrating to play against due to the curses and his own mobility, and he can really boost Tormented models.

I've got Hamelin down in the second tier because whilst he can swarm the board with rats, in a lot of circumstances I just don't feel they're that useful. He has some nice tricks but I don't rate them at the same level as Leve's or Daw's. Von Schill is a brilliant all-rounder and if the Viks get the jump on you, you've had it, but if you can get the jump on them then they're toast.

Tara I feel benefits more from Resser models than Outcast. She is playable in Outcast but there always seems to be a better choice. And I feel Misaki loses so much compared to her 10T guise that she drops down.

Gremlins

Top tier - Som'er, Ophelia

Competitive - Brewmaster, Ulix, Wong, Mah

Just no - Zoraida

Som'er, as has been covered by others, does everything whilst being next to impossible to pin down. I find Ophelia really strong due to being able to pick a target and then batter it with three 4/6/8 damage flips, whilst being sufficiently far away from retribution.

If you can get Brewmaster working he can be a really negative experience for your opponent, but it is hard to get him at his best and he has to be in the right situation I feel. Ulix is brilliant fun but has some horrific matchups, particularly Neverborn, where I would never take him. Wong drops for me due to the caster weaknesses of terrain messing with his effectiveness and being vulnerable to being attacked. And Mah again is great fun - if she doesn't want to kill things herself, she can push her crew around instead.

Zoraida I don't feel offers anything particularly special. The only time she was a pain in the neck was with Entourage in the scheme pool and she just Animal Shape'd her way across the table. Couldn't reach her to stop her. Otherwise, she tends to summon the voodoo doll that can occasionally be annoying but that's about it.

10 Thunders

Top tier - McCabe

Competitive - Shen Long, Misaki, Lynch

Just no - Mei Feng, Yan Lo, Brewmaster

McCabe is just as strong in 10T as he is in Guild. Here he just gets a load of new toys to work with.

Shen Long is daunting to play against as all the conditions move around and models push, but a lot of times I'm just not sure if it is Shen Long that's so good or Sensei Yu. Misaki really benefits from Shadow Emissary and Recalled Training, and Lynch is Lynch. Solid.

Brewmaster loses a lot from his Gremlin incarnation, enough to drop him here. Mei Feng and Yan Lo, I stand by prior comments.

[Archilus]

I dont get all the hate all the hate for Hoff..

[trikk]

Hoff is great until you are against a Armour-ignoring enemy - Viktorias for example. 

[Red Moon Head]

2 minutes ago, Archilus said:

I dont get all the hate all the hate for Hoff..

I have a standing theory that people concentrate too much on the construct theme whenever they take him and end up picking a whole crew based aorund powerlooping. 

I honestly think you are better having 3 powerloop targets and build the rest of the crew with otehr things like scheme runners or anti scheme runners. That way you are only really spending 1 ap from hoff (Which is usually from OSA anyway) to loop your 3 constructs. Then go to town with healing/machine puppets.

[Archilus]

11 minutes ago, Red Moon Head said:

I have a standing theory that people concentrate too much on the construct theme whenever they take him and end up picking a whole crew based aorund powerlooping. 

I honestly think you are better having 3 powerloop targets and build the rest of the crew with otehr things like scheme runners or anti scheme runners. That way you are only really spending 1 ap from hoff (Which is usually from OSA anyway) to loop your 3 constructs. Then go to town with healing/machine puppets.

Agreed, from my experince you usually just need to power loopa guardian and a peacekeeper. I sometimes also power loop a metal gamin, because Hoff with a CA10  is kinda cool

[Red Moon Head]

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

Hoff is great until you are against a Armour-ignoring enemy - Viktorias for example. 

There is a way to possibly out range the viks with hoff but it's a difficult match up for sure.

Emmisary, mobile toolkit + austringer and possibly a death marshal.

Toolkit gives +dg to emmisary.
Austringer moves up flank 7"
Death marshal charges Austringer and buries him.
Hoffman makes toolkit slow gains fast, loops in his otehr construct (probably peacekeeper) for free. (0) fro scrap and (1) to give targetting upgrade to emmisary. (1) Machine puppet with rams to give emmisary fast + Focus. (1) Machine Puppet Emmisary Masks to push 2" and shoot with Range 18" ignore LOS+Cover sh7 +damage flips. Repeat last 2 (except dont use rams for first one as he already has fast).

Emmisary activates with fast, + flips to damage, Built in rams (from discarding upgrade) and has a 12" sh7 ignores los and cover shooting attack with built in crit strike and +dg flips.

It's pretty sweet when you pull it off and it's situational on terrain but you can catch a vik on tehir back foot with it at times for sure.

[trikk]

I know its possible but your plan doesn`t take into account the rest of his army. And 18" is less than Vik charge range (Walk, Sisters in Spirit, +2dmg, Accomplice, Oathkeeper, walk, charge, whirlwind, melee expert)