Rate Masters into tiers

[OldManMyke]

30 minutes ago, Durza said:

Hey Confused1, try playing Mcmourning without using expunge for a few games, see what else you can get out of him, he's insanely fast with some other great actions, focusing on expunging something every turn is a trap in my opinion, especially if your entire crew is set up just to build and move a stack of poison around.

This, transfusion is a trap as well

[Confused1]

Not sure what I said that gave you the impression that I was only or even primarily using expunge. No, I meant the entire crew is set up to apply poison, not to move it. Plastic Surgery's movement requires McMourning to take damage from Poison, which means that you need to keep him tethered to Sebastian, and you need to keep Poison on him. As I said, it's incredibly disruptive when an opponent's condition removal - and they will take condition removal against Ressurectionists - strips his poison off. Now he loses his ability to push around, and it's very easy to trap and isolate him where he is. I don't see how he's insanely fast, particularly when he's out of poison and needs a Wk 4 Nurse or something fragile like the Chihuahua to run over and dope him up again. Plastic Surgery usually amounts to 10" of forward momentum at best; it gets him into the thick of things and then it's just something to help him apply big poison stacks.

Durza, is this what you meant by insanely fast? Or did you mean something else?

Look, OldManMyke, I see you're a big McMourning fan, I'm not saying he's terrible, I'm saying others do what he does better. I've played many games with him, I'm not saying he doesn't win. I agree, Transfusion is pointless, it makes much more sense to apply Poison with Nurses and Chihuahua for your own crew, and Plastic Surgery with Rancid Transplant. Again, the problem is relying on that for a lot of his mobility, when losing it in the wrong time means an Initiative flip can cost McMourning unless you burn way too much AP reapplying it. Or, they let him expend disproportionate resources killing something, take off his Poison after he activates, and he's stuck somewhere that became strategically pointless when he killed his target, and you have to spend AP walking him back in the game.

Yan Lo also has good mobility. Lightning Dance is a good ability. Using it correctly is what makes or breaks Yan Lo. Doesn't make Yan Lo fantastic. But, removing Poison removes a lot of McMourning's movement, especially if you can cut him off from Belle/Doxy support. Remove the Poison, and you can outmaneuver McMourning. If you're a Melee attacker, you need to be the one outmaneuvering. I really don't see how an Enforcer being repositioned with Swirl Spirits/Obliteration Symbiote, or a master with a better Melee attack and the ability to (0) and be placed back anywhere in your deployment zone and Lured back into position don't outclass Yan Lo and McMourning. That's what I'm asking: what are you bringing with your McMourning that compensates for others doing what he does better? Why would you take him over someone else? We all seem to agree, Expunge/Flesh Construct summoning isn't reliable. What are you bringing that I'm not, which removes his massive vulnerability to condition removal?

Here's what I am running, for reference. It's hard to say what else I've run him with, as I've played a lot of games and I adapt to Schemes, Strategies, and Opposing Faction, but Rancid Transplant and Moonlighting are always there, Sebastian always has Those Are Not Ours! and Unknowable Pain. I need something to threaten other parts of the board, so Rogue Necromancy with Pack or Dead Rider is going in, Shikome and Yin are clamoring for a spot, it's hard to say no to a Doxy, McMourning runs on 5-6 stones, and I probably want at least one Belle or Crooked Man, Unnerving Aura and Evidence Tampering are situationally good so those 31 points go FAST. I want to try Mortimer or Rafkin more, but there's never room.

[valhallan42nd]

Luscious and Yan Lo: Tier one forever.

[Stryder]

13 hours ago, Confused1 said:

Hi, I'm really not understanding how many of you ranked Resurrectionists. Having played them so much at this point, I'm really surprised at a lot of the common trends in how everyone ranked them, because it doesn't resemble what I expected at all. I was hoping some of you, particularly tournament Ressurectionist players like Stryder, could please explain to me how you evaluated these. I've read the thread about how much terrain, I'm up to date with the latest FAQs and Errata, I understand how close together tiers are, and I'm judging based on how well they deal with GG 2016 Schemes and Strategies against all 7 factions assuming statistically average fate decks. The Ressur tier list arrangements were just so bewildering to me that I registered to ask what's up.

Fine...this is how I would rate all resser masters as a list with reasons:

1. Nicodem - The trick to using Nicodem properly is easy. Just utilise whichever ability you need at that moment. The biggest mistake I see Nico players making is summoning what they can when they can, instead of summoning what they need when they need and using his other abilities as required. The flexibility to attack, defend or score and switch from one to the other instantly is all there with Nico, it's up to the player to use it all properly. I would go so far as to say that Nico is one of the top 5 masters in the game simply because of his flexibility, though his abilities favour a more defensive and tanky playstyle.

2. Molly (Horror) - Plays fairly similar to Nico, but replaces the defensive capabilities with Black Blood which is more of a deterrent. Slightly more focused on aggression than Nicodem as you drop summons in the thick of things. I would NEVER take the over-costed dead weight Sybelle with her (or any other master) over a Dead Doxy as Sybelle has to be at one end of the push, while the Doxy can be far away scoring you points while increasing your mobility. But why only Horror Molly? Simple. If you want to play Spirits, take Kirai instead. Speaking of which...

3. Kirai - More mobile than the other two but with a more fragile crew, Kirai is more focused on scoring points, but less focused on defense and attack. Resource management is a big skill in this game, and none more so than with this master. When played well, She's very good. Make a mistake, and your opponent will quickly gain the upper hand.

4. Seamus - For those games where the schemes will decide the outcome. You can reliably pin 6 points on Seamus and he'll usually get all of them with little to no support from his crew, leaving them free to contest the strategy and deny opposing schemes. A slightly unorthodox playstyle, which to be honest suits Seamus perfectly.

5. Yan Lo - Like Seamus in reverse, Yan Lo is for denying strategy points with his easy access to pushes, placement effects and defensive abilities. Useful a lot less often, but still has his place in a competitive environment.

6. Molly (Spirit) - If you want to play spirits, take Kirai.

7. McMourning - The problem with McMourning is that he doesn't 'fit' with the general resser theme of enemy manipulation. Sure, dumping poison on things can make them run away from him, but I once got him from one side of the field to the other in a single turn to expunge a Silurid which would have scored my opponent a winning Breakthrough point, so running from him is very hard. He's easier to learn and use than the other resser masters, but not all that effective. Too much focus on an expunge setup can be detrimental to your score, and using him as bait will only work for so long.

8. Tara - Not a bad master by any means, despite being at the bottom of the list. Like McMourning, she needs a decent amount of setup, but is less free with how you can go about that due to her own restrictions.

 

Now excuse me while I go put some earplugs in while you all ragehate etc...

[Confused1]

Ragehate? But this... makes sense. It's almost as if you rated everyone based on how well they could accomplish the actual win conditions, Schemes and Strategies, without needing their crew around to support them.

In context, I see now why you're not a big Tara fan. Instead of sequencing activations to set up, she requires perfect positioning, which means she's never really free to take Objectives herself, and her crew is forced to remain close to capitalize on enemies suffering from Dead of Winter or gain AP from Temporal Shift. Being that positioning intensive goes against how you play - and frequently win - Malifaux.

36 minutes ago, Stryder said:

The biggest mistake I see Nico players making is summoning what they can when they can, instead of summoning what they need when they need and using his other abilities as required. The flexibility to attack, defend or score and switch from one to the other instantly is all there with Nico, it's up to the player to use it all properly.

Great advice, I see a lot of people forget about Decay or Rigor Mortis and tunnel-vision hard on summoning. I should focus on this more with Horror Molly, and less on trying to summon or stay within Black Blood range; it may well make me less reliant on Masterful Dead, which means I can loosen my grip on my control hand. I hope that will improve my opinion of her significantly.

Otherwise, that made a lot of sense. Great post, thank you so much for responding to me, and for your post about Izamu. I never understood why people take him over Rogue Necromancy, and I'd never thought of running Graveyard Spirit tethered to him. Despite not being an Izamu fan outside Kirai, your justifications for Rogue Necromancy helped me use it better. Thank you.

[valhallan42nd]

14 hours ago, OldManMyke said:

This, transfusion is a trap as well

I dunno, Sebastian transfusing poison onto himself to power bloody harvest is pretty funny.

[ArcanistHero29]

The worst defeats I've experienced have been at the beard of Yan Lo; my opponents made it seem effortless too. I think he's unfairly rated a lot of the time

[Durza]

21 hours ago, Confused1 said:

Not sure what I said that gave you the impression that I was only or even primarily using expunge. No, I meant the entire crew is set up to apply poison, not to move it. Plastic Surgery's movement requires McMourning to take damage from Poison, which means that you need to keep him tethered to Sebastian, and you need to keep Poison on him. As I said, it's incredibly disruptive when an opponent's condition removal - and they will take condition removal against Ressurectionists - strips his poison off. Now he loses his ability to push around, and it's very easy to trap and isolate him where he is. I don't see how he's insanely fast, particularly when he's out of poison and needs a Wk 4 Nurse or something fragile like the Chihuahua to run over and dope him up again. Plastic Surgery usually amounts to 10" of forward momentum at best; it gets him into the thick of things and then it's just something to help him apply big poison stacks.

Sorry, usually when I hear build for poison it usually means building for a stack to transfusion off. You don't need to have your entire crew built to apply poison, while nice to have don't just add things to your list because it applies poison, have that as a secondary consideration. I've found Mcmourning himself can give out enough poison to cause trouble.

For his movement, you don't need to keep him tethered to Sebastian, I've found the end of activation push has been enough in most games.

What condition removal is giving you trouble? If it's witchling or Johan, then they need a specific suit, and clearing it off an enemy they'll want a high card, which is one less attack coming your way.

Durza, is this what you meant by insanely fast? Or did you mean something else?

Rancid transplant is range 8 and on a mask gives him a push into base to base contact, Scalpel Slingin' is range 6 and has the same trigger, he should not be easy to Isolate and trap, you should at least be in range of a walk then Rancid Transplant, even to a friendly to get out of trouble.

Look, OldManMyke, I see you're a big McMourning fan, I'm not saying he's terrible, I'm saying others do what he does better. I've played many games with him, I'm not saying he doesn't win. I agree, Transfusion is pointless, it makes much more sense to apply Poison with Nurses and Chihuahua for your own crew, and Plastic Surgery with Rancid Transplant. Again, the problem is relying on that for a lot of his mobility, when losing it in the wrong time means an Initiative flip can cost McMourning unless you burn way too much AP reapplying it. Or, they let him expend disproportionate resources killing something, take off his Poison after he activates, and he's stuck somewhere that became strategically pointless when he killed his target, and you have to spend AP walking him back in the game.

Losing his poison doesn't mean he has lost his maneuverability, and 1-2 ap and possibly a (0) to kill an enemy isn't disproportion resources to kill something, depending on what it is, if he's too far out to get back without his poison pushes then you've overextended, which is actually very easy to do, I do it all the time.

Yan Lo also has good mobility. Lightning Dance is a good ability. Using it correctly is what makes or breaks Yan Lo. Doesn't make Yan Lo fantastic. But, removing Poison removes a lot of McMourning's movement, especially if you can cut him off from Belle/Doxy support. Remove the Poison, and you can outmaneuver McMourning. If you're a Melee attacker, you need to be the one outmaneuvering. I really don't see how an Enforcer being repositioned with Swirl Spirits/Obliteration Symbiote, or a master with a better Melee attack and the ability to (0) and be placed back anywhere in your deployment zone and Lured back into position don't outclass Yan Lo and McMourning. That's what I'm asking: what are you bringing with your McMourning that compensates for others doing what he does better? Why would you take him over someone else? We all seem to agree, Expunge/Flesh Construct summoning isn't reliable. What are you bringing that I'm not, which removes his massive vulnerability to condition removal?

Honestly I think he's better than Seamus, both can cover a lot of distance and nuke something off the board, the difference is Seamus can place, but has to be out of LoS/discard a corpse and end near blocking terrain or a friendly scheme, then focus and flintlock to kill something, while Mcmourning can push over, maybe use 1 ap for a rancid transplant then (0) to expunge, both have killed a model but Mcmourning possibly has leftover ap and a flesh construct out of it depending on terrain and enemy positioning. 

How does Tara have a better melee attack? Mcmourning ignores armour and hard to wound and can heal up to 5 wounds an activation, and has 1 higher moderate and severe, if Tara wants a better attack she has to cast first.

While Expunge isn't reliable every turn, you can still get it off if you need it with rancid transplant, and even damage from his melee and the poison from infect.

Here's what I am running, for reference. It's hard to say what else I've run him with, as I've played a lot of games and I adapt to Schemes, Strategies, and Opposing Faction, but Rancid Transplant and Moonlighting are always there, Sebastian always has Those Are Not Ours! and Unknowable Pain. I need something to threaten other parts of the board, so Rogue Necromancy with Pack or Dead Rider is going in, Shikome and Yin are clamoring for a spot, it's hard to say no to a Doxy, McMourning runs on 5-6 stones, and I probably want at least one Belle or Crooked Man, Unnerving Aura and Evidence Tampering are situationally good so those 31 points go FAST. I want to try Mortimer or Rafkin more, but there's never room.

I've mostly played him as guild, but have had games as ressers, I usually run Plastic surgery and Moonlighting, maybe plastic surgery, spare parts or decaying aura depending on schemes/how I feel. If I take Sebastian I run his upgrade, and I don't usually take Unknowable pain. I usually take a beater and a nurse, and then fill the rest with what I think would be good for the strategy and schemes, while preferring stuff with poison it isn't a requirement. Also, I'd like to point out I don't like taking Belles for some reason, probably just avoiding the popular thing.

I do understand you feel other masters are better, I feel the same about Mccabe, I can't get him to work and don't have much success with him, but pretty much everyone else loves him. But this is personal preference, I'm biased toward Mcmourning, you're against him, this probably won't change your mind but it's fun trying.

 Sorry if this comes off a bit rambly, it's been a long day.

 

[Confused1]

1 hour ago, Durza said:

I've mostly played him as guild

HUGE difference. I initially played Guild, too straightforward for my taste, I'm probably better at them actually. Mostly played McMourning and Sonnia, with some McCabe.

In Ressurs, Precise on McMourning is as good as the extra range + Hunpo Assault, or extra range + Glimpse, and that one trigger that makes Som'er and Hamelin cry that I can't remember the name of.

Being able to give Precise to an Executioner? To a Rifleman? To pretty much anything with at least average damage and Critical Strike? That's why he's one of the best Guild Masters. At least, the biggest reason I see. Nurse + Witchling Stalker is 2 points less than Chiaki. It's not just handing out Precise that matters, it's handing it out in a faction full of Guns and Critical Strike triggers on a Master who has no need of Rams.

Also, it's worth noting that it's a lot easier to keep Poison on him when you declare Guild vs. Ressurectionists. If your opponent doesn't include survivable or redundant condition removal in their list when you declare Ressurectionists, they're either metagaming, implying the skill gap is so great they don't need to care what you're playing, or they're too new to know that most Ressur stuff is overpriced around the premise that it will either be summoned, or that what it's fighting will be crippled by a condition. Whereas, if you declare Guild? Who uses conditions, and leaves them on long enough to remove? You? Yes, you Poison and Precise your own models. Sonnia? Congratulations, she ONLY nuked you. Way to deny her that Stalker, champ. Lucius? I mean, I guess paralyzing his own models counts. Hoffman? Removing Power Loop is a severe annoyance, but it won't take Howard Langston's Rams away. Perdita? Lady J (who is a worse McMourning IMO)? McCabe? Upgrades, not conditions.

To be fair, I haven't much Hoffman experience, removing Power Loop might be a bigger problem than I think. Still, even 2/7 Masters who actually use conditions enough to warrant bringing removal when you otherwise wouldn't run that model makes McMourning much more likely to work. They're not expecting conditions, so they don't bring condition hate, and without getting hard countered, McMourning can generally push around as long as he has counters.

Also, while Austringers lose 3" of push over Doxies, the 18" range and the lack of a flip needed is way better for moving McMourning in and out of fights. Not to mention the synergy with Uppers...

Having Francisco around drastically increases Doc's longevity. Sidir works too, but I liked him better with Sonnia. Guild doesn't lack for amazing Henchmen though; only Sammael's card isn't "wait did I read that right?!?" The Judge adds mobility but I find him redundant.

Overall, Guild McMourning fits with the faction much better, and they benefit much more from his support. He's propping his crew up, rather than the other way around.

[Durza]

On 5/5/2016 at 1:37 AM, Confused1 said:

HUGE difference. I initially played Guild, too straightforward for my taste, I'm probably better at them actually. Mostly played McMourning and Sonnia, with some McCabe.

In Ressurs, Precise on McMourning is as good as the extra range + Hunpo Assault, or extra range + Glimpse, and that one trigger that makes Som'er and Hamelin cry that I can't remember the name of.

He doesn't just have precise on his attack, catalyst + built in infect, the heal on hits and a push with scalpel slingin' puts his attack as better than Yan Los and Taras in my opinion. Hunpo assault is good, but really requires the Emissary to be great (I was thinking of brutal Khakkhara here, a Ca8 spirit barrage with  to attack and damage is very nice.), glimpse the void is too unreliable and sympathetic echoes is resource intensive, needing a crow and a stone, while Tara can get 6 attacks off a turn she has better things to be doing with her ap. Each of the masters are different enough that straight up comparisons aren't that great though.

Being able to give Precise to an Executioner? To a Rifleman? To pretty much anything with at least average damage and Critical Strike? That's why he's one of the best Guild Masters. At least, the biggest reason I see. Nurse + Witchling Stalker is 2 points less than Chiaki. It's not just handing out Precise that matters, it's handing it out in a faction full of Guns and Critical Strike triggers on a Master who has no need of Rams.

And then you come across someone who doesn't rely on armour or hard to wound and the action is useless, I've found On order of the Governor's secretary... I love saying that the better ability, and even if I need precise I've found Mcmourning can take care of most things that rely on armour or hard to wound himself, and if they don't have either, cool, Mcmourning can take it on anyway.

Also, it's worth noting that it's a lot easier to keep Poison on him when you declare Guild vs. Ressurectionists. If your opponent doesn't include survivable or redundant condition removal in their list when you declare Ressurectionists, they're either metagaming, implying the skill gap is so great they don't need to care what you're playing, or they're too new to know that most Ressur stuff is overpriced around the premise that it will either be summoned, or that what it's fighting will be crippled by a condition. Whereas, if you declare Guild? Who uses conditions, and leaves them on long enough to remove? You? Yes, you Poison and Precise your own models. Sonnia? Congratulations, she ONLY nuked you. Way to deny her that Stalker, champ. Lucius? I mean, I guess paralyzing his own models counts. Hoffman? Removing Power Loop is a severe annoyance, but it won't take Howard Langston's Rams away. Perdita? Lady J (who is a worse McMourning IMO)? McCabe? Upgrades, not conditions.

Mcmourning does fine without poison, you seem to think condition removal completely neuters Mcmourning, he does fine without a stack of poison on himself, an 8" push on rancid transplant is plenty to get him around, and if he needs it on enemies he can throw around enough poison with ease. How much condition removal is being taken against you? If lots of your opponents actions are condition removal, thats less attacks coming your way, or less interacts going on. Personally I've found condition removal is really only used for big stuff, like a stack of burning or paralyze, and if it's used on poison it's usually just on that last point that will kill a model, and will be easy enough to reapply or just kill the model anyway, and if you spread enough poison around and your opponent tries to clear it all they are just hurting themselves.

Also, while Austringers lose 3" of push over Doxies, the 18" range and the lack of a flip needed is way better for moving McMourning in and out of fights. Not to mention the synergy with Uppers...

Mcmourning gets in and out of fights just fine in my experience unless I overextend, at which point the 2" push from an Austringer likely wont save him, but the extra from a Belle or Doxie might just be enough.

Having Francisco around drastically increases Doc's longevity. Sidir works too, but I liked him better with Sonnia. Guild doesn't lack for amazing Henchmen though; only Sammael's card isn't "wait did I read that right?!?" The Judge adds mobility but I find him redundant.

I've found Frank can't keep up with Mcmourning and dies too quickly for me to take too often, and I've never gotten Sidir to do much, nor have I seen him do much when used against me or in games I've watched. 

Overall, Guild McMourning fits with the faction much better, and they benefit much more from his support. He's propping his crew up, rather than the other way around.

I don't see him being propped up by his crew in ressers, he works fine mostly on his own, extra poison being thrown around is nice, but he doesn't need it. Even if he does need to give out support, injection is a fantastic ability that's better in ressers, as they have a lot of stuff that can use the poison to heal instead of needing to be cleared off. I haven't played enough games with ressers to get a clear personal ranking yet but with what I have played in my opinion Mcmourning is nowhere near as low as you rank him. 

 

[Xerri]

Hey,

Im new to the game and was wondering if there is any updates on tier list im thinking of playing  the following masters

Levi, Lucas, Seamus and Mc Mouring, and thinking maybe Parker, would like to know if anyone of them are tier 1, if not a strong master.

[Paradigm]

8 minutes ago, Xerri said:

Hey,

Im new to the game and was wondering if there is any updates on tier list im thinking of playing  the following masters

Levi, Lucas, Seamus and Mc Mouring, and thinking maybe Parker, would like to know if anyone of them are tier 1, if not a strong master.

I would put Lucas in top tier. Levi was substantially Cuddled, and probably sits pretty nicely somewhere around the middle. The others are all good, but not overpowered in any way.

[Xerri]

Would you be talking about Lucas McCabe? and who would you say tier 1 would be? ATM?

[Adran]

I think Levi is still very strong, probably tier 2 in my list of 7. but it's important to understand that even turning up with the "worst" master in the game against the " best" , player skill will still be the biggest factor in determining the winner. and as you might see from the lists, people have quite different opinions on which are the top masters and which are the worst. 

[daniello_s]

Agreed on Levi. He is still strong and can be placed somewhere in the middle of tier 2 in Math's ranking.

[Xerri]

I ended up going jack daw, just working out lists for him that will be good. Have had some help with us good  anymore is always welcome.

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Damn, did Nicodem come 'round here.

I know you went Daw, but I'd say play who you want. I've done really well with Lucius among my other NB masters. There are certain masters that have a harder time, but none are unplayable.

[Trample]

Nicodem did make an appearance here, but there are a whole pile of new masters to add to this list! I'm not sure anyone has enough experience with them to sort them out yet (I don't have enough with the original ones yet) but it would be interesting to hear what people thought. My initial impression is that Reva and Nellie rate pretty high on this scale and the rest seem to be pretty mid tier. It's early though. The only new master I've played with is Parker and I'm still not sure about him. I think the Raiders and Dead Outlaws are going to help him out quite a bit. 

[Math Mathonwy]

12 hours ago, Trample said:

Nicodem did make an appearance here, but there are a whole pile of new masters to add to this list! I'm not sure anyone has enough experience with them to sort them out yet (I don't have enough with the original ones yet) but it would be interesting to hear what people thought. My initial impression is that Reva and Nellie rate pretty high on this scale and the rest seem to be pretty mid tier. It's early though. The only new master I've played with is Parker and I'm still not sure about him. I think the Raiders and Dead Outlaws are going to help him out quite a bit. 

My impression is that Sandeep is probably the mightiest of the new Masters. And Zipp is pretty boss as well. But I have minimal experience with the new guys so far.

[FinalForm]

I think after lots of playtesting this thread can return to 1st page

My general thoughts on new masters:

T1: Nellie, Sandeep, Zipp
T2: Parker, Titania, Reva

Don't have any idea on Asami, but to me she is good t2 or higher
Also after january errata Lucius is around low t2 or good t3, Ophelia is t3 and Tara top t2 or low t1. Maybe due to Prompt changes Colette is more like low t1 or good t2.

Everything in my post is my opinion and can be very subjective due to our community. 

[Skylifter-1000]

I have way too little experience with the game, but I'd also be interested to see which masters you guys see in what tiers now after book 4. 

[Niinoi]

How about book4?  Any opinion update for tier list?

[Math Mathonwy]

12 minutes ago, Niinoi said:

How about book4?  Any opinion update for tier list?

Note that this thread is pretty old in that a lot had happened and not just new models but new errata as well. I'm thinking that my new tier list would be:

Tier 1: Perdita, Somer, Kirai, Ramos, Colette, Dreamer, Collodi, Jack Daw, Leveticus, Wong, Zipp, Nellie, Sandeep, Reva, Lilith, Nicodem, Marcus, McCabe
Tier 2: Sonnia, Resser McMourning, Tara, Molly, Seamus, Rasputina, Mei Feng, Zoraida, Lynch, Pandora, Vikkies, Von Schill, Misaki, Hamelin, Ulix, Mah Tuckett, Shenlong, Parker, Asami, Titania
Tier 3: Guild McMourning, Lady Justice, Hoffman, Yan Lo, Ironsides, Lucius, Kaeris, Ophelia
Tier 4: Brewmaster

Compared to my previous list, the distance between the tiers has shortened, I think. Especially between tiers 2-4.

[Adran]

 

This is a slightly more update discussion (although I keep referring back to this thread in it) on the topic. I'd suggest reading the 2 together, as this thread has the bulk of the discussion, and the other thread largely has discussion on book 4, and how it and the errata changed things from what is said here. 

 

[Skylifter-1000]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

 

This is a slightly more update discussion (although I keep referring back to this thread in it) on the topic. I'd suggest reading the 2 together, as this thread has the bulk of the discussion, and the other thread largely has discussion on book 4, and how it and the errata changed things from what is said here. 

 

I think the other is a little too limited, discussing only best and worst masters and digressing a lot. This thread is a lot more informative for me as a relatively new player. So how would you rate the masters currently?