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Puppeteer

New player Lilith crew help

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I've played about a dozen games so far with Neverborn, most with dreamer and a few with Lynch. I've been looking at Lilith and want to learn how she plays. The crew I've thought of to start this is -

Lilith -- 7ss
 +Beckon Malifaux - 1ss
 +On Wings Of Darkness - 1ss

Primordial Magic - 2ss

Insidious Madness - 5ss

Insidious Madness - 5ss

Mysterous Effigy - 4ss

Nekima - 13ss
 +The Mimic's Blessing - 1ss

Tuco - 7ss
 +The Mimic's Blessing - 1ss

Waldgeist - 6ss

 

Any suggestions as to if this is usable as a general start to learning her would be greatly appreciated.

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The beauty of the game is you can learn with anything. I see some interesting synergies you have potential for with this list, but a few things I'd consider (which I'll get to). What I'd like to ask you first is what do you plan to do with the 2x Insidious in the Lilith crew? The reason I ask is because while they are great models they mostly focus on WP 'debuffs' and the WP duels you force with this Lilith build are Wicked Vines and Tangle Shadows (both which are good, but Wicked vines is amazing).

 

So I'd suggest dropping Tuco and using a Doppleganger. Depending on the matchup and scenario go with either Mimics or Retributions Eye on Dopple. For Nekima I suggest either Pact or Fears Given Form (again depending on situation). Pact if you need her to be VERY aggressive and don't want the BJ to ruin your day. FgF if you are going against a large group of models potentially. 

Oh and if you have access to Hannah, here is a fun one where you have two Rush of Magic (Lilith + Primordial), and Arcane Reservoir, and with On Wings can even see more cards. So that's 9 cards you get to see (keep 7), and if you need to you can stone to see 3 more and discard 3 more (potential of 12 cards seen; which is about 22% of the deck).

 

Neverborn
50ss Crew

Lilith -- 6ss
 +On Wings Of Darkness - 1ss
 +Beckon Malifaux - 1ss

Primordial Magic - 2ss

Doppleganger - 7ss
 +Retribution's Eye - 1ss

Hannah - 11ss
 +Fears Given Form - 1ss

Nekima - 13ss
 +Fears Given Form - 1ss

Terror Tot - 4ss

Waldgeist - 6ss
 

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I would say paying that whalloping 12 points for Hannah is not really worth it when usually just Lilith + Primordial magic already lets you draw 8 cards and keep 6, which is good enough to ensure a decent hand without sinking too many points into it.

Now, one issue you might find is: Nekima is really, really powerful. She will get bogged down, focused, rushed and whatever the hell else your oponent can do to keep her from mulching their stuff, which she will if she has the chance. I often run models like the Black Blood Shaman and Mister Graves with Nekima, as supports for her.

The shaman can heal and add some ping damage if you are surrounded or fail to kill an enemy by only just. And Graves can potentially allow for silly yet awesome first turn charges (Dangerous, but might work if you do it at the tail end of the turn and then get initiative next.)

What I am saying is: when you take Nekima you end up building your list more around her than Lilith, which might be cool, but is something to keep in mind.

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4 minutes ago, DaRedWun said:

I would say paying that whalloping 12 points for Hannah is not really worth it when usually just Lilith + Primordial magic already lets you draw 8 cards and keep 6, which is good enough to ensure a decent hand without sinking too many points into it.

Now, one issue you might find is: Nekima is really, really powerful. She will get bogged down, focused, rushed and whatever the hell else your oponent can do to keep her from mulching their stuff, which she will if she has the chance. I often run models like the Black Blood Shaman and Mister Graves with Nekima, as supports for her.

The shaman can heal and add some ping damage if you are surrounded or fail to kill an enemy by only just. And Graves can potentially allow for silly yet awesome first turn charges (Dangerous, but might work if you do it at the tail end of the turn and then get initiative next.)

What I am saying is: when you take Nekima you end up building your list more around her than Lilith, which might be cool, but is something to keep in mind.

Very valid points. I agree on the Hannah comment but it is quite liberating and yes requires really knowing how to use these models in unison. But yes I think your suggestions are probably a better starting point. Graves is AMAZING in a Lilith crew for the reasons you describe. I'm not a huge fan of BBS even though it does serve a good role (just a little pricey for me).

So far key takeaways are grab a doppleganger and a Mr. Graves and you'll be at a good starting point....still curious what OP plan was for the Insidious Madness. 

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I don't have the card on me, but I'm pretty sure Wicked Vines is vs. Defense, not Willpower.  Lowering someone's Willpower enough to reliably use Tangled Shadows with a lower card or against a high Df target is definitely nice, but certainly not necessary.  Lilith's AP is very flexible, so there's nearly always something you could be doing instead if you don't have a good Tangled Shadows target.

I love Hannah. She's easily one of my favorite Outcast models. That said, Hannah is largely wasted in that crew since once of the best things about her is the (0) Make a New Entry to copy a non-master (1) Ca Action. She offers solid zone control and a durable frame to hold a location, but Lilith doesn't really need help with that. Stripping suits in a 4" aura is nice, but again not very necessary in most cases for Lilith. The 3/4/6 damage track (Edit: 2/4/6 with blasts) is already similarly available without blasts in either Johan or Mr. Graves, both of which have their own utility and are much less expensive.  As a bonus, Johan with Retribution's Eye completely crushes things like Riders and anything relying on armor, especially if it's a construct.

One concern I have in the original post's crew is the excessive scheme running.  Two Insidious Madnesses, the Mysterious Effigy, and the Primordial Magic.  I'm a pretty big fan of the Effigy since for only 4ss it can be a nuisance, is reasonably quick, and gives Lilith a handy push to get away from things she doesn't like.  I nearly always take the Primordial Magic, too.  It's not that the Cherub is bad, but it sometimes doesn't do its job and gets killed once it starts doing its job.  The Pukesnake always does its job from anywhere on the board.  I'd take only one other scheme runner, either that Insidious Madness or a Terror Tot, and upgrade the other to something else using some of your cache.  Lilith has a nice starting cache of 4ss and doesn't use too many herself most of the time, although Nekima can eat them like candy if she gets focused.

Given that your other crew are several Nephilim, you'd get decent play out of a Black Blood Shaman.  It can help keep Nekima topped off and add some more splash damage if she finds herself surrounded.  Another option, and a personal favorite of mine, is Johan.  When taken as a mercenary he is 7ss and provides a relic hammer and condition removal to Lilith's crew - both things she likes very much.

The rest of the crew looks just fine, although I'd probably drop Mimic's Blessing from Tuco at minimum and probably from Nekima as well - although she certainly does like having it, I just usually need the stones for something else.

Edited by Kirby
Clarifying Hannah damage

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9 hours ago, Kirby said:

The 3/4/6 damage track is already available in either Johan or Mr. Graves, both of which have their own utility and are much less expensive.  As a bonus, Johan with Retribution's Eye completely crushes things like Riders and anything relying on armor, especially if it's a construct.

Hannah is actually 2/4/6, but with blasts. And you can give her Fears Given Form, which is nice. 

I'm looking forward to trying her out with the Dreamer (because he loves cards) and Lynch (because lol). Hadn't really thought of her with Lilith.

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Ah right, right.  She's definitely awesome, but I'd still have a hard time finding 12ss for her in a crew where her (0) wasn't utilized to a solid effect.

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On 4/19/2016 at 9:39 AM, Puppeteer said:

 

Tuco - 7ss
 +The Mimic's Blessing - 1ss

 

This is rough Tuco looks great but having 8 stones on this model is a bit much when you can take other models that do more for the cost. Tuco is between a rock and a hard place he is a thematic model at best for the game. I have him, but i only run him when i am teaching people the game and I don't care about winning.

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Lilith Cache 6
Wings of Darkness 
Beckon Malifaux 

Primordial Magic 

Nekima /- Hooded Rider 
Mr Graves /- Trapper 
Doppelganger 
Johan /-Trapper 

One of these models can have Retributions Eye or Mimics Blessing (or anything else you fancy). If the Hooded Rider is in for Nekima, bring two. 

Any combination that makes a pair of Depleted, Tots, and Mysterious Effigy. Depending on strategy/schemes. 

That makes 8 models. You can play very aggressive or quite cagey. Lilith can protect your beaters by putting down forests, kill threats, or use Wicked Vines. She will provide you with stellar hands almost every turn. The 4ss minions are fun to toy around with. Depleted are great for Holding Points while Tots are great runners, the Effigy somewhere in between. 



 

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6 hours ago, RobertSirc said:

This is rough Tuco looks great but having 8 stones on this model is a bit much when you can take other models that do more for the cost. Tuco is between a rock and a hard place he is a thematic model at best for the game. I have him, but i only run him when i am teaching people the game and I don't care about winning.

I particularly think that upgrade is wasted on him since he can't be charged anyway.

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Thank you all, this was really helpful.  And I have been having issues with getting the scheme markers I need out so I went a little overboard on the runners. I definitely want to try her with Johan and a trapper.

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One of the standard go-to lists for Lilith was popularized by the top UK Neverborn player, Greg Piskosz:

Lilith -- 7ss (5, 6, or 7ss depending on if you take the upgrades in parentheses)
 +Beckon Malifaux - 1ss
 +On Wings Of Darkness - 1ss
 (+Aether Connection - 1ss)

Primordial Magic - 2ss

Nekima - 13ss

Doppelganger - 7ss

Johan - 7ss
 (+Retribution's Eye - 1ss)

Mr. Graves - 8ss

Mysterious Effigy - 4ss

Terror Tot - 4ss

 

You can hear his explanation of the crew, how it works, and why he likes it here: http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-18-master-spotlight-lilith/

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29 minutes ago, Kirby said:

One of the standard go-to lists for Lilith was popularized by the top UK Neverborn player, Greg Piskosz:

Lilith -- 7ss (5, 6, or 7ss depending on if you take the upgrades in parentheses)
 +Beckon Malifaux - 1ss
 +On Wings Of Darkness - 1ss
 (+Aether Connection - 1ss)

Primordial Magic - 2ss

Nekima - 13ss

Doppelganger - 7ss

Johan - 7ss
 (+Retribution's Eye - 1ss)

Mr. Graves - 8ss

Mysterious Effigy - 4ss

Terror Tot - 4ss

 

You can hear his explanation of the crew, how it works, and why he likes it here: http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-18-master-spotlight-lilith/

Mind you with this swapping out the hooded rider with Nekima is a decent substitution if you want to keep him in the back field killing scheme runners 19 inch threat range is pretty sick.

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