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Sexism in Gaming


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1 minute ago, morella said:

for those who are choosing to care about stopping harassment, there is still a disconnect where many don't perceive a lot of the threatening behaviors going on. I think that is likely to be the more fruitful discussion.

I was just having this discussion elsewhere a little bit ago- I think a lot of it stems from people generally assuming that they're right.

So, you makes some off-color joke. Maybe it can be taken as a veiled threat, or maybe it's just as funny to the other person. The problem is, since you're generally a pretty funny guy who'd never say anything mean, you don't know if you've crossed the line.

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6 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

I was just having this discussion elsewhere a little bit ago- I think a lot of it stems from people generally assuming that they're right.

So, you makes some off-color joke. Maybe it can be taken as a veiled threat, or maybe it's just as funny to the other person. The problem is, since you're generally a pretty funny guy who'd never say anything mean, you don't know if you've crossed the line.

Basically what I meant, thanks for the example. These are the blurry areas that even well intentioned people have difficulty navigating, and aren't necessarily generalizable.

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1 hour ago, cegorach said:

And then white straight males get to have a dose of what they have been serving everyone else in the world for a good few centuries now.

I strongly dislike statements like this.

Unless they are 100s of years old, those theoretical white straight males will not have been the ones doing the discriminating for 100s of years.  
Saying they get a taste of what they've been doing is just not true.  They didn't do it. 

Blaming someone for something that happened before they were even born just ain't right, no matter what their race/ethnicity/gender/sexual preference is.

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2 minutes ago, Nexus said:

I strongly dislike statements like this.
Unless they are 100s of years old, those theoretical white straight males will not have been the ones doing the discriminating for 100s of years.  
Saying they get a taste of what they've been doing is just not true.  They didn't do it. 
Blaming someone for something that happened before they were even born just ain't right.

There's something a little hypocritical there, yeah.

It could easily be changed to something like

Quote

And then white straight males get to have a dose of what they have been benefitting from for a good few centuries now.

and then there's some truth to it, but it's just as unfair as any other form of prejudice to assume any given person is an agent of the problem.

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18 minutes ago, Nexus said:

I strongly dislike statements like this.

Unless they are 100s of years old, those theoretical white straight males will not have been the ones doing the discriminating for 100s of years.  
Saying they get a taste of what they've been doing is just not true.  They didn't do it. 

Blaming someone for something that happened before they were even born just ain't right, no matter what their race/ethnicity/gender/sexual preference is.

People may not be responsible for the legacy, but they are responsible for realizing said legacy has long-lasting effects leading into the present day, and if they choose to, consciously or unconsciously, perpetuate those effects rather than standing against them.

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1 hour ago, Dirial said:

Could you please elaborate? What does the statistic whether the gaming culture is more or less unequal/sexist/racist/etc. have to do with the distinction whether I want to save the world or the gaming culture? What does it have to do with realism? What does it have to do with the question if even one such incident is one too much?

Especially since you claim that the gaming culture is the one we talk about and have the power to change.... Why does it matter if its better or worse than the rest of the world? Would the result that it's statistically better mean that we don't need to change it?

I'll be happy to. If we, as gamers, happen to be less sexist, or as sexist, then the average person then we don't really have a problem with sexism in gaming. We have a problem with sexism in society. On the other hand if we do happen to be more sexist thensociety at large then I would agree that we do have a problem with sexsm in gaming.

I just happen to think that demonizing a group that would be better then the rest is a good way to antagonize them as well a push them away from you cause.

Math nailed it. Section 3 is what he's talking about.

And no, I have zero sympathy for you, Tez, that systems like laws protecting minorities or affirmative action laws give a group that isn't you an advantage that they wouldn't otherwise have. A half-century of legally patching our culture with things that support minorities or women* doesn't count for more than the time before or the ongoing racial profiling and general violence that goes on in this country.

*No, affirmative action isn't perfect or even close to it, it's a mess because it's more efficient and fair to make broad generalizations based on numbers than for government organizations to go case-by-case, but it's better than nothing.. Not to bring this full-circle, but I think you were saying something about statistics being an argument you'd believe?

In terms of "white guys need protection"... Are juries not going to believe you when you say someone hurt you? Are people going to use your identity in place of an insult? Are cops going to assume you're violent so shoot you when you move strangely? Are you going to be lynched for what color skin you have or who you like to sleep with? Do you have groups who claim it's their right to hate you and wave a flag proclaiming it as their heritage? Are you going to have to have states pass laws saying that it should be fine to hate you? With the most recent trend, are you going to have hoards of internet fanatics hound you from afar until your company fires you?

 

 

 

About affirmative action. You are wrong. I'm sorry but you are. As I said before, there are affirmative action in place in the STEM fields. There is also a study that shows that women are favored for a job in STEM's when compared to a man with the same qualifications.

 

Gringos and Cracker do exist as derogatory terms

Look up #killallmen

no need for laws it's already fine to hate white men.

And as for the last one... Look up Tim hunt, dunglegate, shirtgate, etc.

 

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I don't have terribly much to add, partially because I don't experience things I perceive as harassment on any sort of regular basis at my local hobby places.  But I can say that the hobby shops I hang out at, there are a number of female staff members (Less than males, but still involved in hobbies) and players who frequent the store.  Although from what I've seen they tend to play more of the card games and roleplaying, I don't know that I've ever seen a female tabletop war gamer.  Although again, I don't have quite as much experience with tournaments or such, that draw in larger quantities of players.  I mostly just go up to meet friendly faces and sometimes catch a game, often times just discuss games.

Although I did note one of the women playing D&D get out some Malifaux miniatures for representation of a battle, so I suppose that implies she plays or at least owns them.  Unfortunately Malifaux is altogether a game which my local (Within half an hour drive) stores seem to have very little player base, though I've seen multiple people remark of interest, there is no regular play groups.  So it's hard to say if someone into the game avoids playing at the shop for their own reasons, or just because it's not an easy place to find opponents.

I have known personal relations who are into games that have been entirely inappropriate people.  The type that thinks any inflammatory or derogatory joke is better, because he catches more ears and raises more reaction when using them.  Not exactly the type of person you want to hold onto as a friend, and as much as anyone might disagree with such opinions there is often little you can really do to change the way someone acts when they still get what they generally want (attention, it would seem in this case).  Not that I can speak on his motives or life's story.

On the positive side though, I did overhear a conversation at the local shop I've more recently started hanging out, regarding the general concept of harassment or sexism in the frame of sports.  I don't follow sports really, so I don't know if they were discussing a specific event occurring recently or just the idea in general, but the conversation was about the power of fame and, as the one guy called it, hero worship.  And how sports stars have gotten away with things many people would consider deplorable, that if they were not in positions of national spotlight they would have easily been reprimanded in far heavier ways, or the fact that even after such events (The one specifically they were mentioning was a married star being caught with prostitutes) the fact that it has nearly no impact on how people view them.  Rather the opposite, when people of high positions who are regarded with esteem or looked up to, it marginalizes those unethical acts and can sometimes make more impressionable persons view them as less unethical.

Although I'm sure the gaming community isn't free of this trapping, I'm glad at least that we don't have larger profile incidents, or persons inflicting that sort of positive reinforcement of negative actions.  It might be more common than I think though, I know I don't follow leading tournaments for any of the games that are more popular (Magic, 40k, I really don't know games would have larger profile events).  So at least I hope it isn't a big issue for gaming.

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57 minutes ago, Pyrflamme said:

People may not be responsible for the legacy, but they are responsible for realizing said legacy has long-lasting effects leading into the present day, and if they choose to, consciously or unconsciously, perpetuate those effects rather than standing against them.

I definitely agree.
I just don't like it being implied that future generations should be punished for our mistakes.

This is on us to fix.  Nobody else.

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Harassment in my gaming area is  at minimum and it's mostly gossip based and sometimes people percieve competitive playing as harassment. I don't recall there was any sort of verbal harassment against people of different sex, ethincity, sexual preference, but there are some tensions between diffent game communities (40K & Fantasy Warhammer for the most part) and between communities in different cities. That's all I know about in my META and most of unpleasntness is mostly contained on the internet. I haven't sensed anything remotely antagonistic in my Malifaux community, besides some competitiveness and maybe some ageism (one of the players is jelous of one of the underaged players who gets the best prizes at tournaments).
Our henchman is very good at his job at helping solving any difficulties that spring up.

Unfortunately the girl gamers in wargaming hobbies is critically low in my META and it seems that there is no more than one girl playing miniature games at one a time. We have one female Malifaux gamer (and zero girl players in other miniature games) and I'm certain the atmosphere would be different for the better if there were more girl players in our community.
I really liked Gnomezillas quote about friendly banter involving female players (I'm not going to reqote it, you can read it on the previous page).

On the other hand in board game circles and roleplaying games there are much more female gamers, which I ascribe to the wargaming population because most of the girl would be enthusiasts feel like it's a special club.
Which is an interesting topic I'll try to look into and ask around.

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I'm very glad that Wyrd has chosen to open this conversation again, and that the response from the company on this issue has been unequivocal. I'll admit when the allegations of misconduct surfaced it threw me for a loop, and I worried for a morning whether I was going to have to distance myself from a company that I really love. I'm glad that I don't.

It's hard to admit when you've been in the wrong. In my teens there were a couple of times when I was "that guy" - I was used to women finding me attractive and I behaved inappropriately when that didn't happen, continuing to flirt or dance at people who in retrospect were clearly not interested. I know that I acted inappropriately even as I vocally labeled myself a femenist. Remembering those times and acknowledging the harm that I caused, the the privileged position that I was acting from, that's painful but the pain helps to motivate me to not be an asshole in the future. I've also been the victim of that same sort of attention - mostly from men but occasionally from women so I understand the way that objectification feels.

I can't repair the harm that I've caused, in large ways and small. But I feel a responsibility to educate others, and to take steps to make the spaces that I occupy safe for women, for my fellow queer people, for people of color. It is a moral obligation for each of us to recognize the harm that we have done through action or inaction and to take steps in our own imperfect ways to make up for that. It's not enough for me, or any of us, to simply not be assholes - on a grand scale there's already an excess of asshole in the gaming community and the world at large - if we care about making gaming something that is open to women and minorities then we have to be actively anti-asshole.

That means not only confronting harassing behavior when we see it, but also stepping back to make room for female and minority voices. It means putting a premium on their experience because it includes things that we cannot necessarily see. And yes, it means that taking other perspectives into account when designing models and writing fluff - something that Wyrd has done a better job on than pretty much any other company in the business, but even they have some room for improvement.

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49 minutes ago, Pete said:

I'll be happy to. If we, as gamers, happen to be less sexist, or as sexist, then the average person then we don't really have a problem with sexism in gaming. We have a problem with sexism in society. On the other hand if we do happen to be more sexist thensociety at large then I would agree that we do have a problem with sexsm in gaming.

I just happen to think that demonizing a group that would be better then the rest is a good way to antagonize them as well a push them away from you cause.

Ah. I think this is the point where we have to disagree: Gaming is part of society. I don't see the benefit of making a distinction there. If there is even one sexist person in gaming, we have a problem with sexism in gaming, regardless of the norm outside of gaming. Assuming that the rate of sexism in gaming is lower then the norm in the society (a horrible concept, by the way), that is in no way reason to pat our collective backs and stop striving for improvement.

Also, I'm not trying to demonize any group, especially not my own. I'm saying that my group has to change its ways. Reluctance to do so, I perceive as clinging to our ingrained sense of privilege. I honestly feel that that won't do for a society (or a small part of it) in the year 2016. It just won't do.

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14 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

That means not only confronting harassing behavior when we see it, but also stepping back to make room for female and minority voices. It means putting a premium on their experience because it includes things that we cannot necessarily see. And yes, it means that taking other perspectives into account when designing models and writing fluff - something that Wyrd has done a better job on than pretty much any other company in the business, but even they have some room for improvement.

4i5EK.gif

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40 minutes ago, Pete said:

Gringos and Cracker do exist as derogatory terms

Look up #killallmen

no need for laws it's already fine to hate white men.

And as for the last one... Look up Tim hunt, dunglegate, shirtgate, etc.

 

I wasn't saying there weren't derogatory terms for white people (my mom's japanese, and I sure shut her down when she used one on my white wife), but that isn't the same as calling things "gay" as a general negative term, or the extremely common humor/insults involving calling men women.

And y'know what? I actually did look up the donglegate one (arbitrary choice) and no, I don't consider someone getting fired over sexist jokes to be the same sort of targeting as someone getting harassed until they were fired PS. a bunch of rape and death threats.

And no, I'm not going to say that no one on the side I believe in has ever done anything wrong or is otherwise completely innocent, but I wholly believe that certain perspectives are far more prone to targeted violence when they disagree.

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Are you people sure you arent making up issues where there are none? 

I really thought wargaming hobby is a carefree enviroment where guys and maybe sometimes some girls get together and enjoy a shared hobby free of pointless social/political discussions..until I saw this thread.

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4 minutes ago, Archilus said:

Are you people sure you arent making up issues where there are none? 

I really thought wargaming hobby is a carefree enviroment where guys and maybe sometimes some girls get together and enjoy a shared hobby free of pointless social/political discussions..until I saw this thread.

I've got nothing like some of the things I've heard, but y'know what? My wife's a gamer, and she's occasionally gone into gaming stores, and in all but the most female-friendly (usually dual board game and mini game stores) of them, she's treated like an idiot, whether or not she talks the talk or can describe strategy or anything else that would indicate she's as much a gamer as a guy. And even if it were just passive insults and not harassment that I've often seen described, that would still be a problem.

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2 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

I've got nothing like some of the things I've heard, but y'know what? My wife's a gamer, and she's occasionally gone into gaming stores, and in all but the most female-friendly (usually dual board game and mini game stores) of them, she's treated like an idiot, whether or not she talks the talk or can describe strategy or anything else that would indicate she's as much a gamer as a guy. And even if it were just passive insults and not harassment that I've often seen described, that would still be a problem.

My wife once went into a game store alone to buy an RPG for me. Everyone stopped and stared at her (it was a little hole in the wall place) when she walked in, and when she asked for where she could find the book, they gave her a standing ovation.

Oddly, she didn't feel inclined to go back :-P

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28 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

It's hard to admit when you've been in the wrong.  (...) But I feel a responsibility to educate others, and to take steps to make the spaces that I occupy safe (...)

+1. I was too polite to be actively negative to people, but I certainly know I feel guilty about how dismissive I was related to all sorts of stuff I didn't really understand in high school and college. I'm sad to admit that a lot of it took knowing people in groups I'd variously rejected, but it did, and when I realized what an ass I'd been about it, I realized a lot about my sheltered perspective, minority or no, and wanted to do what I could to make up for it and keep others from being similar jerks.

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13 minutes ago, Archilus said:

I really thought wargaming hobby is a carefree enviroment where guys and maybe sometimes some girls get together and enjoy a shared hobby free of pointless social/political discussions..until I saw this thread.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if it were so? If the social discussion was pointless because there wasn't a problem - because it would be just as carefree for everyone as it is for you?

Sadly, it isn't so.

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13 minutes ago, Archilus said:

Are you people sure you arent making up issues where there are none? 

I really thought wargaming hobby is a carefree enviroment where guys and maybe sometimes some girls get together and enjoy a shared hobby free of pointless social/political discussions..until I saw this thread.

Even though Aaron already addressed this, let me quote from the post I linked to earlier (written by a white man):

"I’ve seen it happen before and I watched it unfold regarding this article now. “That seems exaggerated.” Such an innocent remark. Especially taken against the context that you do need to be very careful about what you read on the internet. (When I’m checking news sites, even on some of the most trusted sites on the planet I’ll often go to multiple sites to verify events). The problem, as I see it, is that “that seems exaggerated” can lead to “I think the author lied about some of that” to “how can I believe any of it if some of it is a lie?” And taken in the context of “I never see that,” the slippery slope of dismissal has reached the bottom of the hill and the author is either viciously attacked for “compromising her situation,” if not outright lying or perhaps even worse, simply ignored.

Even I’ve felt those tendrils burrowing through my empathy, hollowing out my capacity to believe.

So then I’ve wound back to the question bugging me, especially given the possibilities that its all exaggerated: why have I felt compelled to draft up a giant post and make a public stand? Because of another experience a few months ago.

A woman in the industry that I’ve gotten to know and respect over the last year had just returned from a convention; a con I’ve attended and immensely enjoyed several times. And during a conversation discussing that con, she matter-of-factly tossed out numerous instances of sexual harassment across just the few days of attendance: ugly and incredibly brazen, right out in front of people. Now in each case, she backed the guy off with strength and some choice words; she certainly wasn’t looking to anyone for help, as she can take care of herself. But it was—for me—the stunning juxtaposition of how much she enjoyed the con (and will keep attending)…and oh, yeah, the usual sexual harassment.

Think about that for a moment. “The…usual…sexual…harassment.” I’ve attended well over a hundred conventions all over the world. And I can recall maybe one or two instances of being uncomfortable in all those years. And yet she keeps going to cons year after year with “the…usual…sexual…harassment.” Just like the woman in that article…just like so many women…."

Yeah...

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Just two weeks ago I went into the store I've been going to for 3 years and got a comment about it being "welcome" if I fell into a guy's lap and it'd be "bad for you, but great for me!" after I said excuse me and apologized for causing extra distress in a crowded room just to walk by while my boyfriend (who's hand I was holding at the time) was not even half a foot away from me. 

While that's not the worst of things I and other women have experienced, it's those tiny things that make it really uncomfortable to even say the most mundane of things. I laughed at the time, trying not to make a big deal of it and take it as "a compliment", but it still made it hard to get up and go walking by again for fear of actually falling onto this guy. And of course, then my BF was mad for about an hour or two until the guy left the store. Adding to that, now our entire D&D table was awkward and uncomfortable about bringing up anything risque on the off chance this guy ran off his mouth again (he's not known for keeping his face closed and he commented on it again to a few other people VERY loudly). 

On almost every occasion that's "nerd related", I have a majority of people ignore me and turn to talk to my BF or ask him rules when, not even a minute prior, he's explained that he's new to the subject and doesn't know it as well as I do. OR, the subject shifts from the actual awesome geeky conversation to "Wow, you're like a unicorn". Then of course, there's the weird looks from across the room. I've been boob grabbed and ass slapped in other locations, had people flat out question if I even knew what I was talking about, tell me to stop talking so "the boys can talk" despite being the LITERAL store designated rep for the product being discussed, have experienced the awkward commentary of "needing to clone you so that everyone can have you" or being asked to sit on someone's lap. 

Little things add up and while from the outside they don't seem "That bad", they are. 

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24 minutes ago, Talismaniical said:

Little things add up and while from the outside they don't seem "That bad", they are.

I dunno.  I wouldn't say they don't seem bad.  I probably wouldn't be comfortable if a guy said he would be fine with me falling into his lap.  (As a side note, I'm a male, but the concept remains the same.)

Certainly, none of the things you stated are things that I would find acceptable to do personally.  But I don't come from a very typical mindset, I don't think.  I wouldn't do those things with friends in casual, nor would I in public with strangers.  But I'm a fairly reserved person.  I really can't imagine thinking of women as being.. somehow under qualified to simply know things, like a game, or having it be explained to me by a woman.  I mean, I get the obvious sexual harassment issues and how that potentially crops up as a problem (Society is not the best at making that sort of behavior frowned upon), but I really don't understand being dismissive of people for no reason, especially based on outward qualities such as gender or race.

And while I agree that things may be inappropriate, I really don't know the correct solution to "minor" incidents like that.  People are often want to take issue with being corrected, and, I personally am not one to aggravate issues.  Like you said about just "laughing it off", if the reverse is stating the obvious (That it's not acceptable to say such things), I could easily see that blowing up in people's faces for suggesting things like that.  And then you come to the stickiest part of the problem, who ends up being sided against.  And I doubt the end result will typically end in rainbows and happiness, although I can't say for sure.  It's definitely an issue that, while socially ingrained, is deeply related to the persons you're interacting with.  I guess the best we can hope is that people are as reasonable as possible, and not simply ignorant, because that's the only avenue to alleviating the situation.

 

And while interacting with strangers often requires slightly more tact, I see the problem when people are friends in public, and are far too casual about certain situations (Like discussing personal affairs or relations), and this, frankly, doesn't help.  Because while it may be OK to discuss things like that, and perhaps with certain circles you are comfortable talking of such matters, the issue becomes that discussing it in public, it sets a tone for anyone who can overhear you, and intentional or not it lays the way for people to accept that sort of behavior across the board.  Even if one only considers it a discussion acceptable with personal acquaintances, it opens the door for the larger entity to feel it's OK, and blurs the line of when it is acceptable to behave in certain ways.

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Well, this entire discussion was prompted by a specific post by a specific person,  which we don't have to get into.  But I've seen this happen in several different communities now, gaming being the most recent.  It is that several things are brought up in a way which paints the community about which the complaints are being raised as "the worst" or a "haven for misogynists" etc.. etc...  Which can really bother people in that community and perhaps make them more defensive than they otherwise would be.   

 

Secondly, we all like to think we are good people, and the community contains people we've all known personally in our lives and respect.  It bothers all of us to find out these things happen, and it also bothers all of us to be painted in certain way (and is often why discussions about privilege are difficult).    

My particular view is that there is not a "sexism problem" in gaming.    There is just a general "sexism problem". <- that's a period.    However, something we can do as a community in threads like this is to talk about how it should be handled and corrected within the space that we share.

 

When you say X is a problem IN GAMING, it implies that there is something above and beyond what you would experience in life otherwise.   Framing the discussion as a call to action, rather than laying blame at a communities feet is likely a better way to go.

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