11th Thunder Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 On phone so I am not quoting and dividing up. I use the headcanon I guess only because I cannot personally effect the actual canon. It only lets me challenge the patriarchal assumption that swm is normal when it is brought up I guess, but is all I am able to do with the models at hand I guess. I suppose it comes from being into fan fiction in the first place. I certainly think that gaming in general (not just wyrd, but here we are) needs more representation of marginalised groups. It is hard to challenge the patriachy if it seems like everything is catered to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Pickles Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 7 hours ago, Hagisman said: wargamers in other games who came out as LGBT, but left the hobby soon after. Each story had different reasons for not going to tournaments or game nights any more. I feel this might be mo 2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said: Infinity has a transgender character (Avicenna) and, well, Carnevale has Gnagas (gay prostitutes who dress as women - this is based on history but can't be considered a positive representation) but that's all I can think of. Which is indeed really sad. OTOH there aren't all that many minis game characters whose sexuality is known but it wouldn't kill to have some (positive) representation, surely. Flint in Guildball is gay too 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, 11th Thunder said: On phone so I am not quoting and dividing up. I use the headcanon I guess only because I cannot personally effect the actual canon. It only lets me challenge the patriarchal assumption that swm is normal when it is brought up I guess, but is all I am able to do with the models at hand I guess. I suppose it comes from being into fan fiction in the first place. I certainly think that gaming in general (not just wyrd, but here we are) needs more representation of marginalised groups. It is hard to challenge the patriachy if it seems like everything is catered to them. Are you sure you wish to challenge the patriarchy with a game where one of the most popular characters is a necrophiliac serial killer with a harem of undead hookers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11th Thunder Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 1 minute ago, huntroll said: Are you sure you wish to challenge the patriarchy with a game where one of the most popular characters is a necrophiliac serial killer with a harem of undead hookers? I wish to challenge the patriarchy with every single thing in the world 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 While we're on the topic of underrepresented groups... TT are a really mixed bag for me... there are some very pan-asian stereotypes there that sometimes get under my skin, and some of the japanese language stuff is frustrating*, but I do, at the end of the day, thoroughly appreciate the effort Wyrd put into not making there be a token asian set. * I'll admit it... I'm kind of a language nazi- it's mostly clear but easily corrected mistakes, on par with "its" vs. "it's" or bad linguistics like an 18th c. character using an obviously 20th c. turn of phrase, it just happens to be particularly frequent with the Japanese fragments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceViking Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Just now, SpiralngCadavr said: * I'll admit it... I'm kind of a language nazi- it's mostly clear but easily corrected mistakes, on par with "its" vs. "it's" or bad linguistics like an 18th c. character using an obviously 20th c. turn of phrase, it just happens to be particularly frequent with the Japanese fragments. Not a fan of Hate Darkness the Resser master? A lot has been said (though not necessarily in this thread) about the Geek Social Fallacy and other similar problems for bad behavior in gaming. One thing I like to discuss in these situations is the effect of society and the media on what is considered "acceptable" behavior and how that messes with subcultures. I remember reading a few years back about how Dave Chappelle's biggest regret on his own comedy and TV show was how he pushed racial slurs and racial language into the mainstream of American society, to the point that caucasian fans of his were quoting said slurs to him from his own comedy bits. The rush of "edgy" comedy in the mid-2000s played a big role in this that's not really commented on, and why otherwise well-meaning people might say horrible, insensitive things without realizing it.* The main front, as I see it, is dealing with the people that will shape up if called out on bad behavior, or learn bad behaviors like this from others and parrot it. *This is not meant to excuse the behavior, but understand why it exists. This also does not apply to the really egregious bad behaviors like sexual assault/harassment that's been dragged into the light from conventions and led to things like Cosplay Is Not Consent and harassment guidelines. That's just people being douchebags. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 14 minutes ago, 11th Thunder said: I wish to challenge the patriarchy with every single thing in the world Goddamn straight. (...umm, no pun intended.) Spaceviking, heh, yeah, not so much. Also, well put. I think a lot of PC stuff boils down to thinking for 10 seconds about whether something you're about to do is categorically okay to do, or if it's okay because the someone famous/society/the bigger boys said it was okay (or implied it through doing it themselves). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierowmaniac Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 41 minutes ago, morella said: I've read a lot of comments on this subject the past few days. It hurts that I have seen friends say they wouldn't tolerate the sexist behavior, and I know this to be false. It makes me angry that some men seem to think that anything short of assault is no big deal. And this is why we've got to come together has a community to change this attitude. We all need to challenge offenders at the tables and not just on the forums! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archilus Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 5 hours ago, Dirial said: Anna Lovelace. Whats wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceViking Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Just now, Archilus said: Whats wrong with that? That wasn't her original name. It was Lizzy Lovelace IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archilus Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 1 minute ago, SpaceViking said: Lizzy Lovelace I still dont see it (Excuse my Eastern European barbarism). Though I´d say Anna sounds better 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolpertinger_press Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Archilus said: I still dont see it (Excuse my Eastern European barbarism). Though I´d say Anna sounds better "Lizzy" sounds a lot like a common slur straight men use to describe gay women. I'm guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted April 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Just now, Archilus said: I still dont see it (Excuse my Eastern European barbarism). Though I´d say Anna sounds better It is certainly not something everyone would see (Wyrd didn't), but the point is more that when an issue was brought up, we did our best to deal with it. I'd rather not rehash what the issue was, but suffice it to say that changing it was an easy fix to allay someone's concerns. We don't need to bring it all up again here just to address what is, essentially, a historical aside. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Wallace Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 I think this discussion has been handled well. I know the issue is a tense one, where opinions can clash and people can feel hostility coming from both sides. I know proper decorum requires us to speak politely, but that we're doing so at least proves that we respect one another to do so. That means something. We're here to play games. Enjoying ourselves is not about letting go of our sensitivity to others, dismissing someone base on any kind of divisive line--real or imagined--is just bad form, to put it as politely as possible. A community that includes and respects all equally is a healthy one, it's one that thrives. So let's follow that path, walk the walk and talk the talk that invites more players to play without fear of having to face some sort of archaic discrimination born out of ignorance. We all win that way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 46 minutes ago, 11th Thunder said: I wish to challenge the patriarchy with every single thing in the world Have you thought about starting your own gaming company with like-minded individuals and developing your own game with Kickstarter funding? That would be a bit more efficient instead of complaining about constant catering to the patriarchy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archilus Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 3 minutes ago, huntroll said: Have you thought about starting your own gaming company with like-minded individuals and developing your own game with Kickstarter funding? That would be a bit more efficient instead of complaining about constant catering to the patriarchy. Id call it Gengerhammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookami_Tez Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 I find it a bit funny thinking there is so much call for LGBT (how ever you write it. Not english speaking so can't remember it all) Just checked Wikipedia (yes not very good source, but hey it's something and I should be asleep) in the US 3,8% of the people identify as LGBT. That is a huge minority. And not saying that minorities shouldn't bee represented but. If we take how many there are named characters in Malifaux and screen that through that 3,8% margin. There shouldn't be that many. There should be some, but not too many. Then comes the topic of how hard it is to make minorities in games now days. It is really laborious work I am sure, as if you do it even a little wrong you are gonna get lot of hate. Gay man who is stylish and very open sexually, could very well fall to a stereotype and people don't want to see that. So it may be just better to not touch the subject at all. What comes out of the harassment and such, it is unfortunate. And I am sure that if something like that is brought to the attention of any company employing such people or customers they would most likely be fired or told to behave or leave. But as someone here already pointed is there a real statistic, not just hear say and somewhat anonymous accusations, that harassment is more common in gaming spaces then in the rest of the world. I need statistics. I need facts. There is also a huge screaming about these kind of thing in collage campuses but what the data shows is that people on campuses are less likely to encounter rape or harassment. But above else one thing that is forgotten too many times now days. "Innocent until proven guilty." That is the mantra of western democratic justice system. This is why every accusation needs to be heard with a high dose of skepticism. Well I am off to sleep. Should have went an hour ago. Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Alternative sexuality statistics fairly accepted as lower than reality, as there's been quite a bit of stigma historically and there are still places where it's dangerous to be anything outside of the norm. And some is more than none currently represented. And regarding statistics, it's equally well-established that the stigma involving sexual assault means that the reported cases are the minority, and then there are the added victim psychology and growing up with a cultural mindset that downplays assault as such ("asking for it"), and frankly the psychology of police that often share the skepticism you're talking about (often due to not recognizing the expression of system shock), that are a barrier to reporting anything. So, sorry for your doubting opinions, but statistics don't hold up when the data's extremely incomplete. There's room for healthy skepticism, but what you're talking about I feel was wholly responded to in the OP: 10 hours ago, Aaron said: Additionally, I'd like to say that claims that "I've never seen it" or "it's not all communities" are not beneficial to the discussion. This is anecdotal at best (as expressed by Nathan in his thread on community), and, at worst, it minimizes the experiences that others are having. I believe that these sort of statements often come from a place of trying to express solidarity (i.e. "You would be welcome here!"), but they approach it the wrong way. Despicable behavior exists in the gaming world, whether you see it or not. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post cegorach Posted April 7, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Ookami_Tez said: I find it a bit funny thinking there is so much call for LGBT (how ever you write it. Not english speaking so can't remember it all) Just checked Wikipedia (yes not very good source, but hey it's something and I should be asleep) in the US 3,8% of the people identify as LGBT. That is a huge minority. And not saying that minorities shouldn't bee represented but. If we take how many there are named characters in Malifaux and screen that through that 3,8% margin. There shouldn't be that many. There should be some, but not too many. Then comes the topic of how hard it is to make minorities in games now days. It is really laborious work I am sure, as if you do it even a little wrong you are gonna get lot of hate. Gay man who is stylish and very open sexually, could very well fall to a stereotype and people don't want to see that. So it may be just better to not touch the subject at all. What comes out of the harassment and such, it is unfortunate. And I am sure that if something like that is brought to the attention of any company employing such people or customers they would most likely be fired or told to behave or leave. But as someone here already pointed is there a real statistic, not just hear say and somewhat anonymous accusations, that harassment is more common in gaming spaces then in the rest of the world. I need statistics. I need facts. There is also a huge screaming about these kind of thing in collage campuses but what the data shows is that people on campuses are less likely to encounter rape or harassment. But above else one thing that is forgotten too many times now days. "Innocent until proven guilty." That is the mantra of western democratic justice system. This is why every accusation needs to be heard with a high dose of skepticism. Well I am off to sleep. Should have went an hour ago. Haha. I'd argue that you shouldn't need 'facts' - you should need only one fact. That fact that these things happen. The problem with that line of reasoning is that it boils down to an eventual weighing up of a ratio between the level of discomfort those in power (in this case generally straight white males) *should* be willing to tolerate in their pastimes versus the number of rapes/abuses/harassments they are comfortable with occurring as a result of the power imbalance perpetuated by their choice. That's what the actual argument is behind the reasoning and you're hardly alone - in fact it represents the majority view. This doesn't make you a bad person at all and it certainly doesn't mean you endorse these things happening. And I'd say that the majority of people who share your majority view are the same. But the thing is, that point of view includes within it an implicit acceptance of these bad things happening. The minute any one of these percentages you are looking for is more than 0% then they are real things. "*Only* 0.5% of women at college are raped. That's awesome, right? Such a low number!" Until you take the time to realise that of a million women in college in our nice shiny Western nations, that's 50,000 women. These are not things we should rationalise. There's not a percentage of women in ANY area of life that we should find to be an *acceptable* ratio of abuse targets. There should not be a situation where you say to a gay person 'Well, if there were only another 500,000 of you in America then we could have one of the 100s of the minis in our range be gay. Sorry 'bout that.'. And so on and so forth. That's how power structures are defined and maintained. We who have power (currently straight white males such as my glorious self) like to rationalise our privilege and dole out scraps to those below us on our own terms. That's kind of awful and responsible for much of the hurt in the world. I applaud how Wyrd has handled this situation - it's head and shoulders above any other mini company I've seen. Simply being frank and open about it and encouraging this kind of positive discussion is a big step forward in an industry not known for its progressiveness. Zero tolerance for abuse is the message and while (as pointed out above) this isn't the same as inclusiveness, it at least cleans the slate to allow you to build a better framework for that. There are people who will read this thread and disagree, who will put their own privilege ahead of the very real suffering and pain of others unlike themselves. But I feel in this community that these people are in the very small minority, and the more these kinds of discussions are had, the more they will leave to find places more welcoming to their point of view. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archilus Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 Is it really so importqnt for a character in a wargame to be gay? Almost all Malifaux characters dont actually have a defined sexuality and it should be krpt that way. Its not important fot a wargames setting and does nothing to enhance the story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeeblee Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 Hi everyone. I recently found an article discussing anecdotal evidence in the frame of the recent events, and I think everyone should give it a read: http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2016/04/why-should-we-listen-to-anecdotal-evidence-of-harassment-in-gaming/ Similarly, I'm not a fan of seeing the "make your own" argument popping up again, which prompts me to share the following article as well: http://www.destructoid.com/why-make-your-own-game-is-a-bad-argument-against-criticism-285695.phtml Overall I think this discussion is being handled far better than the previous one, and that is wonderful. To add my hat into the LGBT representation in the game, I think there are a few suggestions that are being thrown out, but not being picked up on both sides. Yes, it's true that you can't really represent a sexual orientation on a single figure without being horrifically stereotypical. However, all of the instances of confirmed sexual orientation which others have brought up are in the fluff. That's not in the figures, it's in the books. That's where they want to see the representation occur. We want to see a homosexual character in the stories who also has a model in the game. The model doesn't have to scream, "I find the thing arousing!" but the story could cover that. It's similar with trans characters. As it turns out, you can't spot a trans person just by looking at them every time. Additionally for the case of visibility and representation. There are countless articles about, "I would have never become an astronaut if it weren't for [fictional character matching my race/gender/sexual orientation]." Children learn to limit their dreams to the perception of what is available to them. Representation also helps with normalization. Fewer people will feel like freaks if we give them more figures in media who are like them. Fewer people feeling likes freaks means fewer people suffering from depression and anxiety, and so on and so forth. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexus Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 'Baritone Lola' may be some variation of LGBT. ...though I don't think a homicidal c1own is exactly role-model material... Not that every member of the LGBT community needs to be held to some perfect standard as a role-model, they're allowed to be imperfect too. And maybe that actually sends a stronger message, you don't need to be "perfect" you just need to be you. Even if that means being a homicidal c1own. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted April 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 Signing off for the night so I won't be able to watch... so I'm locking this thread. I'll unlock it in the morning. I just don't want anything crazy to happen. Sorry to those that are in bad time zones for my locking. I still <3 you. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 5 hours ago, 11th Thunder said: All the relationships so far in canon are straight, which is fairly terrible, and to be honest most of the references seem pretty out of place to me. For what it's worth, I tried to show depth and intimacy in the relationship between Tara and Karina during their cameo in "The Dead Man's Ball" (in Shifting Loyalties). Sorry for breaking curfew, Aaron! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted April 7, 2016 Report Share Posted April 7, 2016 9 hours ago, Kadeton said: For what it's worth, I tried to show depth and intimacy in the relationship between Tara and Karina during their cameo in "The Dead Man's Ball" (in Shifting Loyalties). Sorry for breaking curfew, Aaron! Tara is heartless and Karina is quite crazy. Those are bad implications... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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