Sexism in Gaming

[cegorach]

I get the strong feeling you are confusing 'random comments someone made on tumblr' with 'people being physically abused and harassed in the real world' and conflating society at large with the gaming community (and since I'm more than guilty of that, fully understandable).

38 minutes ago, Ookami_Tez said:

 

Well in the western world at least for now we have freedom of speech and expression. As long as it doesn't violate other persons freedoms. This is why many people hate morality police be they Leftist SJW or Rightwing Religious fundamentalists.

 

I'd suggest that freedom of speech and expression are not open-ended things, and they differ considerably between nations in legal terms. Rule of thumb - if you're using freedom of speech to be a d*ck, it doesn't matter whether that's *legally* acceptable, you're not in the moral right simply because you *can* do it. You're being a d*ck. You can do it, but don't be surprised or upset or claw for moral high ground if people call you on it. The instances being discussed here are white dudes moaning because they can't say or do things that offend people. Personally, in these instances I'd say if you can't say something nice, just be quiet, don't make yourself out to be a martyr for personal freedoms.

43 minutes ago, Ookami_Tez said:

My idea of Trauma is going trough near death experiences or other horrible shit. We are not dump. We just don't like it when people are said mean things on Twitter and they say they have gotten PTSD from those mean tweets. Sorry I just don't buy that.

That's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about people who suffer physical or emotional abuse. See above about confusing tumblr and real life. These experiences being discussed are awful, real things that happened to real people in the real world. So yes, trauma.

44 minutes ago, Ookami_Tez said:

Because they gather up mobs of people ready to put up a pyre and burn them before the police and other authorities get their job done. It is usual to bring out death threats on the internet as an example of sexism in this discussion. But there are actual men who have to look out of the window to a 100 people yelling at them because of a crime they hadn't committed. Somehow I find more sympathy for the person hiding inside his home from a mob then the public figure who gets death threats from trolls. (Though I do say death threats should always be sent to the authorities so they can actually handle the situation. Real threat or no. They should be found out and dealt with.)

I really, truly do not buy this fantasy notion of poor, victimised white dudes cowering in their basements while hordes of pitchfork waving feminists scream outside for their deaths. I hear it a lot these days and it's pretty weak. But sure, there may have been a small handful of men who have been wrongfully accused and this turns into a mob riot (though in the gaming community I have never, ever heard of this). You do realise that this is being used to downplay the physical, emotional and sexual abuse of people, right? That of just women, we are talking about millions worldwide and within the space of history, probably a good few hundred or even into the thousands within the gaming community alone.

I don't think this provides an effective counterpoint for it to be regularly brought up in the discussion as if it holds some kind of validity. Again though, I think you are mixing up your arguments and talking about something else, about tumblr (which isn't relevant to the real world or the gaming community in terms of the point you are responding to).

51 minutes ago, Ookami_Tez said:

Yes. If we have a reasonable doubt about the accusation we should ignore it. And I am not saying people don't get harassed in this community. I just think it is not because of the community. It is because of individuals in the community. As there are in each and every one of the different communities. Online or Offline.

So you don't believe awareness raising to prevent awful things happening should occur if there is possible doubt about a given comment? Well, that's your prerogative but I'd strongly disagree - and I'd suggest this attitude is a very strong reason why awful things do happen. Casting doubt on any accusation is the main reason why abuse is allowed to flourish in the world and if you're going to insist on 100% veracity for every accusation then you're certainly rubber-stamping a lot of awful things.

No one that I have seen has said it is 'because of the community'. Isolated instances aside, it's been pretty clear that abuse isn't conducted in mass-group efforts. Yes, it is individuals doing these thing most times, as in any community.

The point is that the community's attitude can encourage or discourage these things occurring.

I'm arguing (and Wyrd is too, and many other people here) that the community's attitude should be clearly stated upfront zero tolerance for abuse. That as a community, we declare that we will not allow or support these things and will act in any way to prevent them. 

The only counter position to this is that you have *some* tolerance for abuse, within whatever boundaries you choose to define.

I doubt that's what you're trying to say (at least I hope not) so I think what I'm hearing is that you're disagreeing with the methods used to assess and enforce abuse on a philosophical level?

Fair enough, but I'd caution that while a philosophical argument about personal freedom of expression is all well and good, we are talking about consequences on the other side of the fence up to and including reported physical assault and rape. I'm yet to be convinced that you can equivate that with any feeling of censure a given white dude may feel.

[cegorach]

I'm just sad I've seen this same topic occur more than a few times over the years in the wargaming community.

My personal experiences are always so pleasant and the people I game with so awesome, it breaks my heart to hear about awful people doing awful things and I don't understand why there has to be a debate about it

[Ookami_Tez]

3 hours ago, cegorach said:

Rule of thumb - if you're using freedom of speech to be a d*ck, it doesn't matter whether that's *legally* acceptable, you're not in the moral right simply because you *can* do it.

Just because it offends doesn't mean it is just being a dick. Just to quote Christopher Hitchens, not to use him as authority but just because he but it so well. "If someone tells me that I've hut their feelings, I say, ´I am still waiting to hear what your point is.´ In this country, I've been told, ´That's Offensive´ as if those two words constitute an argument or a comment. Not to me they don't. And I'm not running for anything, so I don't have to pretend to like people when I don't." This is why I at least resonate so strongly against this behavior. Because there are people who escalate them being offended with words like harassment, rape and sexism. This why being a dick isn't illegal but sexual harassment and rape are.

3 hours ago, cegorach said:

That's not what we are talking about here.

Just commented on what I feel what is trauma cause you implied to know what, people like I, think is trauma.

3 hours ago, cegorach said:

I really, truly do not buy this fantasy notion of poor, victimised white dudes cowering in their basements while hordes of pitchfork waving feminists scream outside for their deaths.

Just saying it does happen and there is actually evidence for it like the UVA rape case that was briefly mentioned here. And it is not that we are playing victims. We just point out that bad shit does happen to other people then the LGBT community and women.

3 hours ago, cegorach said:

I'm arguing (and Wyrd is too, and many other people here) that the community's attitude should be clearly stated upfront zero tolerance for abuse.

I want to find a community where there is clear evidence that it has tolerance for abuse. Show me the data. Show me something other then people just saying without any evidence that there is a problem. And explain to me how I can help. If it happens in a small town in the middle of the US, there is little that I can help form halfway around the world.

One thing I find that no one ever tells me in these discussions. How do we stop it. I mean murder has been illegal for quite some time. But still there is murder. Solve that first if you can. Cause I am pretty sure people dying is much worse then people being harassed in their gaming shop. Just to prioritize more. And I don't make light of harassment. But there is just bad shit in the world. And there is nothing that any of us can do about it. This is why I lock my front door. Cause bad shit just happens.

[SpiralngCadavr]

5 hours ago, Ookami_Tez said:

My idea of Trauma is going trough near death experiences or other horrible shit. We are not dump. We just don't like it when people are said mean things on Twitter and they say they have gotten PTSD from those mean tweets. Sorry I just don't buy that.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

Anecdote time- I had one nightmare client a few years back who started freaking out and threatening to take me to court and try to financially ruin me over a few hundred dollars, some subjective phrasing, and him actively ignoring some details of the contract (which had admittedly been pretty poorly put together). Now, he was on the other side of the country and I eventually got him to back down, but it was getting really threatening and I was getting pretty worried/it took some more experienced friends in freelance to help me figure out how to legally push him out of my life. I still get kinda' stressed writing about that ass.

So, when people talk about aggressive anonymous threats and whatever, I can easily sympathize with someone getting upset when a bunch of strangers on the internet start threatening them with rape or murder. Some people are crazy, and when they're anonymous and you have no idea where they are and they do know where you are, it can most certainly be threatening. And, even if they don't take the initiative to do anything physically to you, there are tons of cases of people stalking victims online and getting them fired, and you have no idea if this person and the people they know are crazy enough to do that to you, or if they're just a jerk who said something mean because they didn't like you.

Regarding PTSD, you're basically making the argument that people's experiences are invalid because they aren't as extreme as someone else's. Say you got your finger cut off in some accident. Say someone else got their whole arm cut off in another one. Does their arm getting cut off somehow invalidate the experience and pain of your finger getting cut off?

Also, PTSD before being recognized as a real thing was attributed to a "lack of character." In other words, don't reject something just 'cause you can't understand it.

[Lucidicide]

Okay, I think things are probably on the edge of being too much with some of the recent arguemnts, so I'd encourage a refocus, some deep breaths, or a good night's sleep

[Dolomyte]

     So I figured I would hop in. Humanity in general is terrible, at our roots we are all selfish evil people. Nurture is attempting to civilize nature, and with certain people all the education and corrective actions can only take them so far. I've never seen someone get raped at a LGS or a con, but I am sure it happens. I've seen a ton of guys who creepily go all white night when a female gamer comes into the store (Hello m'lady, let me hold the door for you and pull out a chair for you, and is there anything I can get for you, would you like me to buy you water or some food from the food court, etc. etc. etc.) I've also seen the opposite where a clique of guys make snide remarks or talk trash a bit too loudly about said gamer as well. At my LGS we have a few players who are mentally handicapped, to be honest the same scumbag stuff happens to them if someone is not there to stop it. I live in a pretty racially inclusive area, so we have a large diversity factor, so I don't see a ton of racism, but I imagine if your LGS is in Oregon or Rhode Island when people of color come in they get treated like unicorns and or terrifying monsters.

 

     Changing the appearance or poses of miniatures is not going to make people stop being douche's to women. The only way to stop that would be to act as tough in person as people seem to do on the internet. See a guy harassing a woman playing? tell him to knock it off or get out. See a group of mouth breathers talking about what they would do to her in the corner while she is shopping? Call them out on it. embarrass them more then they already embarrass themselves with whatever chain wallet they are still wearing. (joking, but no seriously, stop wearing chain wallets)

 

     There are a ton of reasons people are the way they are, you won't change them, we can gentrify everything so that we play we flat tokens in appearance similar to checkers, and write missives so that rulesets can only refer to characters as Piece X or Piece 347. And if that's the direction you want to go, awesome, have it, write your own game. The other option is we treat bad gamers, men and women, like we treat cancer, and remove them from the body of the gaming community. Ban them from your events, forums, facebook pages. They will either adapt or move on to something else. Instead of trying to pass the responsibility on to the community at large or game companies, take the responsibility upon yourself and your group of friends / LGS. If you change it there, it will change nationally.

[retnab]

Couple things on some of the messages that have been posted in the last few days.  First, "white knighting" or being extra kind and helpful to someone because they're female is still a kind of sexism, the proper term is benevolent sexism (as in, the person thinks the girl needs your help because they're a girl).  Also when it comes down to it, sexism (and any -ism) really just means "based on sex."  A good exercise for people may be to use the replace text feature on MS Word or whatever other program and replace the words sexism or sexist with based on sex and see if it's still sounds true.  I've definitely read some things above that have been described as "not sexist," but I would say were definitely "based on sex."

Also, small point with the freedom of speech point above that lots of Americans seem to not know, Canada actually does NOT have freedom of speech laws, but instead has an anti-hate based system, which is why most loud members of Westboro are actually permanently banned from coming up here.

[zeeblee]

I honestly have not been keeping 100% on top of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been posted, but I believe the XKCD comic on free speech does a great summary of why people and companies are allowed to call you out (and potentially even reprimand) speech:

[Ookami_Tez]

3 hours ago, retnab said:

I've definitely read some things above that have been described as "not sexist," but I would say were definitely "based on sex."

This would mean that anything that promotes sexuality is sexist. My liking of females is based on their sex. Sorry thats how it goes as does for homosexuals. A homosexual man likes other men based on sex. That is not sexism. Sexism is discriminating based on sex. I would say that even bars out the argument about white knighting being sexism. As they are not discriminating based on sex. Though I think it is in poor taste to just over woman stuff because it is rare to see one in a gaming store, again it is probably an inept way of social and sexual conduct from the man.

3 hours ago, retnab said:

Also, small point with the freedom of speech point above that lots of Americans seem to not know, Canada actually does NOT have freedom of speech laws, but instead has an anti-hate based system, which is why most loud members of Westboro are actually permanently banned from coming up here.

I have to say I am not familiar with Canadian law about these, but I think this is the wrong way to head this. The most efficient way to discard irrational and bad ideas is to bring them to the open marketplace of ideas. Let it be scrutinized and criticized. If it really is a bad idea it will fall into a minority or die away all together. This is the way the scientific method is done and it has a long track record of supplying us with so much that I find it odd that people are against it. Westboros as an example everyone knows they are bigoted, looney christian sect. And no one else takes them too seriously, but Canada is actually so afraid of them yelling their bigotry that they need to silence them. (In a way.) This is why I am pro-free speech always.

 

On the XKCD comic. True they can show you the door but if they didn't counter point your arguments. They have done nothing but buried their head in the sand and pretend the argument is there. No matter how bad of an argument it is.

[Dolomyte]

5 hours ago, Ookami_Tez said:

This would mean that anything that promotes sexuality is sexist. My liking of females is based on their sex. Sorry thats how it goes as does for homosexuals. A homosexual man likes other men based on sex. That is not sexism. Sexism is discriminating based on sex. I would say that even bars out the argument about white knighting being sexism. As they are not discriminating based on sex. Though I think it is in poor taste to just over woman stuff because it is rare to see one in a gaming store, again it is probably an inept way of social and sexual conduct from the man.

I have to say I am not familiar with Canadian law about these, but I think this is the wrong way to head this. The most efficient way to discard irrational and bad ideas is to bring them to the open marketplace of ideas. Let it be scrutinized and criticized. If it really is a bad idea it will fall into a minority or die away all together. This is the way the scientific method is done and it has a long track record of supplying us with so much that I find it odd that people are against it. Westboros as an example everyone knows they are bigoted, looney christian sect. And no one else takes them too seriously, but Canada is actually so afraid of them yelling their bigotry that they need to silence them. (In a way.) This is why I am pro-free speech always.

 

On the XKCD comic. True they can show you the door but if they didn't counter point your arguments. They have done nothing but buried their head in the sand and pretend the argument is there. No matter how bad of an argument it is.

The police are notified if you make threats at school violence, killing the president, etc, via your facebook, twitter, or even text messages. Literally have four calls a week dealing with that. You don't have the freedom to text a friend privately anymore, let alone the freedom to say what you want in public without reprisal.

And white knighting is not sexist, it's disgusting and creepy. It makes people come off like they want to skin the girl and wear her fask as a mask as they do a little kooky dance. Women who are gamers want to be treated as gamers, not women gamers. Equality is being treated the same as everyone else, regardless of any difference. If everyone just enforced treating women, LGBT people, handicapped, the same as we treat people of the same gender and race, it would not be a problem.

 

[SpiralngCadavr]

6 hours ago, Ookami_Tez said:

On the XKCD comic. True they can show you the door but if they didn't counter point your arguments. They have done nothing but buried their head in the sand and pretend the argument is there. No matter how bad of an argument it is.

Or it's just not worth their time to explain why stupid is stupid for the tenth time.

[Lucidicide]

I'm locking this down for awhile. I think tensions are on the rise.

[Aphotic]

Is this in regard to the article posted?

 

IMHO, Wyrd responded. A company who has a code of conduct and who upholds its employees to that code of conduct, isn't responsible for whatever happened. It's not Wyrd's fault there are "bad" people out there.

 

Taking "sexism" out of gaming is like taking "sexism" out of fishing, or driving, or hunting, or or or.

 

Everyone has an opinion. AS a society, we should stop trying to regulate everyone's opinion, and focus on bigger issues. This nonsense has to stop.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Aaron
Removing some unnecessary language.

[Linus Mcmold]

This short video is mostly about video gaming community, but its points can be shared with issues in this thread.

 

[Lucidicide]

21 minutes ago, Aphotic said:

Is this in regard to the article posted?

No. This is in regards to our community wanting to have a discussion about sexism in gaming. There were a few threads posted both here and other places by people who wanted to have be able to voice their ideas and opinions.

Many of those discussions got shut down to make sure they didn't get overly negative. In an effort to make sure our community is able to talk about the things they want, this thread was started as a place for them to do so. However, since it is very easy for these discussions to turn negative, special rules were implemented for this thread in particular (leading to heavier moderation here).

[Lucidicide]

OFFICIAL NOTICE

When I next lock this thread, it's going to be for good. I think a lot of great discussion has occurred and ideas have come to the forefront. I want to encourage people to continue to be open to other ideas than their own, and to continue to push for the best community we can ask for.

However, many hot button issues begin to degrade over time, so I think it's best to let this one sit for awhile. If people feel there is more they want to say, they are welcome to bring it back up after a few weeks have passed. I think some time will help ensure that new ideas come out and cool heads prevail.

Thank you, and thank you all for participating.

[Ookami_Tez]

On 4/9/2016 at 9:33 PM, Ookami_Tez said:

One thing I find that no one ever tells me in these discussions. How do we stop it. I mean murder has been illegal for quite some time. But still there is murder. Solve that first if you can. Cause I am pretty sure people dying is much worse then people being harassed in their gaming shop. Just to prioritize more. And I don't make light of harassment. But there is just bad shit in the world. And there is nothing that any of us can do about it. This is why I lock my front door. Cause bad shit just happens.

As my last message on this topic I will bring this up again as I don't think any one addressed. The point is for those who think this is such a problem that we need to step in. Tell me how to solve it within our community. As it seems really much that bad things are impossible to take away in the large scale so how could we in the small scale. This is the same problem that is in all so called SJW circles. There is only problems and no answers to problems. But yeah it was an interesting talk I hope I at least made some one think about this again.

[TheSpinebuster]

Anecdotally, what initially led to me to actually getting into Malifaux was its better-than-industry-standard representation for women and non-white characters. Sure, people want more (and hopefully previews like those fabulous Guild reporters are indicative of some cool things along those lines in book 4), and it's important to press game creators and companies to be better in all fashions, including representation. (And Wyrd has shown serious growth in this manner, too, which folks don't give them credit for.) 

29 minutes ago, Aphotic said:

Taking "sexism" out of gaming is like taking "sexism" out of fishing, or driving, or hunting, or or or.

There's actually an important difference between gaming and those other activities, though, which is why these issues are perhaps brought up more often for gaming: Gaming is, by nature, social. You are required to have contact with other people (usually an entire community) to play games, while fishing or hunting are solitary or small group activities. Because of the prevalence of social interaction, it behooves the people participating to be welcoming and at least polite to other people. Folks don't often realize how little things they do or say can be off-putting (or worse) to folks from different backgrounds or of different genders or races. The important thing is to have open dialogue and to learn from others, which I'm grateful to Wyrd for allowing to happen here.  Wyrd has really won some serious kudos from me for the way it's handling the situation.

 

[SpiralngCadavr]

39 minutes ago, Ookami_Tez said:

As my last message on this topic I will bring this up again as I don't think any one addressed. The point is for those who think this is such a problem that we need to step in. Tell me how to solve it within our community. As it seems really much that bad things are impossible to take away in the large scale so how could we in the small scale. This is the same problem that is in all so called SJW circles. There is only problems and no answers to problems. But yeah it was an interesting talk I hope I at least made some one think about this again.

I'm sorry, I don't think you've been listening. If you're looking for solutions, there've been a ton of people saying what solutions are, in this thread.

 

The TL;DR list. Don't ignore it. If you see it, don't say to suck it up/asking for it/it was your fault/I've seen worse and don't generally be an insensitive tool because you haven't experienced it and you're being unsympathetic. Be active, both in recognizing stuff, and when you recognize stuff, do something about it, call people on their BS. And think before you do something stupid because you assumed something of others. Don't assume that those bad things are lies/aren't happening around you/aren't something you perpetuate.

No one's expecting to singlehandedly change views on a massive scale- that takes incredible charisma and intelligence and the right circumstances. But it's easy to affect your physical and digital communities by being a better person and encouraging others to do so, if you've got the initiative and the spine.

[Math Mathonwy]

16 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

Be active, both in recognizing stuff, and when you recognize stuff, do something about it, call people on their BS.

This, so much this! Getting any human-activity to be sexism-free is something that probably won't happen during our lifetimes at least but it's the tacit approval that allows it to flourish and that is something that can change. In other words, it's less about changing the bad apples and more about getting the good apples to boot the bad ones out of the basket. Don't tolerate sexism and there will be less sexism.

[Omenbringer]

I agree that communities should do what they can to curb sexism and racism when observed, however I disagree that it happens unobserved in every single community. That assumption is one of the reasons I have stayed out of this thread. Having followed this thread from the start, though, all I will add is that Wyrd has been better than most at curbing sexism in their games when it has been mentioned (Anna Lovelace being the best example of a successful campaign, though there were vocal complaints about Gracie and Seamus previously that were largely unsuccessful). There are still plenty of sexist references in the game that could be addressed, however for me the most noticeable is the continued use of gender-specific pronouns (specifically the use of "She") in the books instead of gender-neutral ("they"). Replacing "he" with "she" is ultimately no different. I would like to see future publications use the appropriate gender-neutral form in all materials not specifically referencing a male or female.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Huh. I thought "they" wasn't properly used in the singular, but turns out it was until recently. Yeah. +1 on a slightly anachronistic but otherwise correct "they."

[admiralvorkraft]

+1 for the singular They from me as well.

There have been a lot of good things in this thread. I appreciate what Wyrd is doing to address sexism in the gaming community, and I hope that we as a gaming community are able to continually improve access for under-represented groups. 

I do want to touch on the idea that the only way we could have a non-sexist game is to play with abstract or blank chits. Adding characters that reflect a broader range of human experience will only make the game and world of Malifaux more vibrant, more unique, and more dynamic. I think a lot of the art we've seen reflects a great trend in inclusivity on top of an already great game.

And really, I would love it if as a community the most controversial thing we had to deal with was RatJoy. I think we're getting closer to that reality with every conversation like this one that we're able to hold in a respectful and receptive way.

[Lucidicide]

With RatJoy coming up, there can be no happy endings. And thus, I say to you... Good night, and good luck.