Sexism in Gaming

[Tokapondora]

I hope I'm not rubbing any feathers the wrong way here but I find some of the rules placed on this discussion peculiar.

 

When looking at Wyrd's models and fluff, I'd be hardpressed to find anything I could call racist, homophobic or sexist in the slightest degree.

Yes, some TT units bring vaguely Asian archetypes to the table, but so does every other units. Light exaggeration is a good way to bring some flair to 30mm of unit. 

The representation of lgtb characters I don't see as a real issue, to be honest, as the vast vast majority of units don't have the slightest hint of any sexual preference. If you want to make characters gay, sure, if you want to make them straight, sure. Just try not to get to a point where you feel like you have to have a tally going on. 

As for the sexism-concerns, at least those listed, I frankly wonder. I know you're not going into it but I can't for the life of me see why the name Lizzy could be considered even remotely sexist, and admittedly not knowing what Lust's abilities were called beforehand I have to ask if this was a matter of sexism or sexuality (which, especially for a character like Lust is fine and to a degree expected to have). 

 

All that really leaves is the community, which I know we're not allowed to say is fine but I frankly have never had or heard anything negative about, and I've played in almost every gathering across my country. I've never seen people's race or sexuality be cared about in the slightest. Only being a woman has garnered some attention, and even that has been in a supportive and inviting tone (read; not patronising).

 

This doesn't mean I'm dismissing people's experiences, it's simply me giving my experiences. If you start a thread on the discussion of sexism and don't allow the voice of people feeling their community is actually doing really well and going strong you're doing nothing but paint a dark picture over the heads of people who do well. 

 

Im guessing I know what sparked this thread and frankly I want to say I feel Wyrd has done nothing that would exclude or be uninviting to any group of people, and that any negativity would be something found in people who came to the hobby with their baggage . This being my first wargame, I have felt nothing but support for who and what I am, and frankly I'd like to  state that I am quite pleased with my experiences.

 

Again, not entirely in line with the rules but I feel positive voices should also be heard. It's those voices that invite new people in and set a better tone for everybody involved.

 

 

 

Also, let's not turn this into a priviledge debate. It's not going to get us anywhere and detach this topic from the thread into something with no winners.

[Solicitor 6]

34 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

All that really leaves is the community, which I know we're not allowed to say is fine but I frankly have never had or heard anything negative about, and I've played in almost every gathering across my country. I've never seen people's race or sexuality be cared about in the slightest. Only being a woman has garnered some attention, and even that has been in a supportive and inviting tone (read; not patronising).

 

This doesn't mean I'm dismissing people's experiences, it's simply me giving my experiences. If you start a thread on the discussion of sexism and don't allow the voice of people feeling their community is actually doing really well and going strong you're doing nothing but paint a dark picture over the heads of people who do well. 

 

Again, not entirely in line with the rules but I feel positive voices should also be heard. It's those voices that invite new people in and set a better tone for everybody involved.

 

Here's the thing, as I understand it.  And I will caveat by saying I understand where you are coming from, because I was there at one point too.  It took some significant discussions with my wife and others to help me understand.

Whenever someone goes "that doesn't happen in my community" or "I have never treated a woman/LGBTQ/ethnic minority/religious minority like that," you are taking away from the experience of the individual who has and making it about yourself, which subtly undermines them.  It is unintentional, but it fails to allow a conversation to move forward as it is a form of shutting down the conversation.  You've never seen a woman harassed at your game store?  That's great, but how does that help the woman who has just told you she is leered at or degraded at the one she went to.

The point of this thread is not to just paint the community in a dark light about this universal issue that can appear more prevalent given we are a microcosm.  The point is to acknowledge what is out there so that we are more aware of it and can be vigilant.  That we learn to step up and say something, even when it may seem like an innocuous comment from X, because "that's just X being X." 

If you are wanting to promote your store/community/group in such a situation (and are sincere about it), extend empathy and sympathy to the person who just related their experience.  Then, if geography permits, invite them for a game at your place because you can promise them they will be treated like a gamer just like everyone else there.

[Squirrelich]

1 hour ago, Talismaniical said:

At any point you hear someone go "That made me really uncomfortable" and your immediate response is one of these:

But do I really have to wait until someone says they're uncomfortable before pointing something out as being unacceptably bad? Some of the examples given feel like it would have been appropriate for anyone around to have spoken up (if they were so inclined), even if the recipient of the comments/actions didn't say they were uncomfortable. I don't want to white knight for someone who doesn't want/need one, but I would want to be part of the solution to these situations.

tl;dr: how can I help?

[Pete]

48 minutes ago, Kbonn said:

When you say X is a problem IN GAMING, it implies that there is something above and beyond what you would experience in life otherwise.   Framing the discussion as a call to action, rather than laying blame at a communities feet is likely a better way to go.

This. A million time.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Dirial said:

Ah. I think this is the point where we have to disagree: Gaming is part of society. I don't see the benefit of making a distinction there. If there is even one sexist person in gaming, we have a problem with sexism in gaming, regardless of the norm outside of gaming. Assuming that the rate of sexism in gaming is lower then the norm in the society (a horrible concept, by the way), that is in no way reason to pat our collective backs and stop striving for improvement.

Also, I'm not trying to demonize any group, especially not my own. I'm saying that my group has to change its ways. Reluctance to do so, I perceive as clinging to our ingrained sense of privilege. I honestly feel that that won't do for a society (or a small part of it) in the year 2016. It just won't do.

Why is it an horrible concept? It's an observation of reality (or asking for one if you prefer). While gaming is part of society it's not all of it. Key word being part. If you're sick and you've got a fever, there's no point in focusing on the fact that you're filling cold. It's a symptom, your flu is the problem. Same here. We can sooth the symptom of sexism that pop up here and there, but if you want to "fix" the problem you are most definitly looking in the wrong place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't believe our culture or "subculture" is sexist.

[SpiralngCadavr]

1 hour ago, Kbonn said:

When you say X is a problem IN GAMING, it implies that there is something above and beyond what you would experience in life otherwise.   Framing the discussion as a call to action, rather than laying blame at a communities feet is likely a better way to go.

100% anecdotally, yeah, I do think it's a problem. I think I do see sexism in general nerd culture a lot more than I do in any other facet of my life. Bigots seem much more comfortable to speak up within the (previously more and still somewhat) exclusionary nerd culture.

...which isn't to say there aren't far more extreme expressions elsewhere, just that I would actually hazard that gaming is not a microcosm that represents the equivalent of society at large- just look at the demographics of any gaming convention and you'll see groups feel more welcome than others, that are not representative of the norm.

[Squirrelich]

17 minutes ago, Pete said:

Why is it an horrible concept? It's an observation of reality (or asking for one if you prefer). While gaming is part of society it's not all of it. Key word being part. If you're sick and you've got a fever, there's no point in focusing on the fact that you're filling cold. It's a symptom, your flu is the problem. Same here. We can sooth the symptom of sexism that pop up here and there, but if you want to "fix" the problem you are most definitly looking in the wrong place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't believe our culture or "subculture" is sexist.

If I have a piece of paper colored in different shades of blue, I would say the paper is blue.

If I section off a corner of that paper, I would say that section is blue.

even though it is the entire paper that is blue, a section of it is still blue, even if it is no more/less blue then the rest of it.
paper = society, blue = sexism/racism/other "...ism"s, section in the corner = gaming ( a part of the greater whole of society)

Now if we decided that the color blue was bad I would try to erase it anywhere I could on that piece of paper. However, the scope of this forum doesn't apply to the whole of the paper, so we fix it where we can, even if it is just a corner.

Edit: Its not about assigning blame, its about making it better in areas that we can affect.
Edit 2: not to say we shouldn't try to make it better everywhere, but we know we can start here because everyone here has common ground and a way to communicate

[LunarSol]

1 hour ago, Talismaniical said:

On almost every occasion that's "nerd related", I have a majority of people ignore me and turn to talk to my BF or ask him rules when, not even a minute prior, he's explained that he's new to the subject and doesn't know it as well as I do. OR, the subject shifts from the actual awesome geeky conversation to "Wow, you're like a unicorn". Then of course, there's the weird looks from across the room.

I personally consider this stuff to be the real problem, even if they're the most minor of issues.  Physical contact or just the suggestions of it, intimidation, threats, and the other presumably obvious zero tolerance stuff are much bigger issues, but they can only really exist unpunished in a community insular enough to develop a tolerance at any level above zero.  It's the little stuff that creates the uncomfortable atmosphere that makes the inclusion of women anything but the norm.

Sociology is cool thing to study from time to time.  Groups of people are just the strangest things for an individual to observe, but the way we huddle together around familiarity for protection using outsiders as a way to bond is... well, insane if it weren't so natural.  An outsider approaches and someone drives them away to strengthen the bonds amidst the group.  I'd love to say there's happy, easy answers, but while history will provide you with no shortage of examples; I'm not sure it provides much in the way of solutions.

Really, the only important thing is that we remain vigilant and aware of how the things we say affect others.  The hardest part is that in some ways, that awareness is generally more than enough to creating a sense of discomfort, the sense that there's an outsider.  I do agree though, the answers is making sure there's help from authority.  Recognizing the more sociable who can act as ambassadors and the having store owners or anyone the group will look up to willing to bring people in line is absolutely needed to bring outsiders in.  

As for the zero tolerance stuff; well, there's no excuse for that.  That's just straight up "you wouldn't do that to anyone else here" levels of crossing a line and if it happens, well, they don't end well, but they need to be dealt with. 

[Talismaniical]

1 hour ago, 7thSquirrel said:

tl;dr: how can I help?

 

15 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I personally consider this stuff to be the real problem, even if they're the most minor of issues.. snipped! As for the zero tolerance stuff; well, there's no excuse for that.  That's just straight up "you wouldn't do that to anyone else here" levels of crossing a line and if it happens, well, they don't end well, but they need to be dealt with. 

 

I think LunarSol pretty much answered that in their post (snipped it here, but definitely go back to it if you'd like to read it). 

Being aware and paying attention so you DO catch it when someone could really use a hand in a crap situation or just being kind to them afterwards are all you really can do at the end of the day. By being kind, I don't mean like... bowing for someone and opening every door and going way out of your way all silly like. I mean just, say, example here, when I've been in a group of people and one completely ignores me, having just one person bring the conversation back and pointedly look at me for a response is one of the best feelings. Or when someone makes a buttawful comment, someone else even just gives the offender a look (not a violent look, just a "Come on, dude..."). I know it's EXTREMELY hard to figure out what's happening when sometimes (there are a few times where me and BF get home and I comment on someone having said something or done something that he didn't even notice), but knowing that someone will notice what happened somewhere in the room 75% of the time is lovely. No one is 100% Ever Vigilant. It'd be unfair to expect such.

Just like it's the little things that hurt, it's equally the little things that help the most. 

I just hope that maybe some of what I've posted in this thread helps.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah... a lot of it (at least in terms of how I try to live and what I think helps?) is taking those moments where someone's being a jerk, and you know it, and it feels awkward to confront them over something stupid and little and it's not doing any real damage and probably nothing bad would happen if you just let it go... but instead you don't make excuses about it being insignificant as a way to justify avoiding conflict, recognize that you might be starting a fight, and call someone on their BS, because it makes the environment just slightly better when jerks aren't allowed to step all over everyone else because no one's doing anything.

A lot of the time if you confront someone reasonably enough, they'll just say "oh, my bad, didn't realize X" and correct it once it's addressed as a problem, or maybe they're just a jerk, at which point at least someone called them on it.

[Linus Mcmold]

I wholly agree with this statment.

2 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

100% anecdotally, yeah, I do think it's a problem. I think I do see sexism in general nerd culture a lot more than I do in any other facet of my life. Bigots seem much more comfortable to speak up within the (previously more and still somewhat) exclusionary nerd culture.

...which isn't to say there aren't far more extreme expressions elsewhere, just that I would actually hazard that gaming is not a microcosm that represents the equivalent of society at large- just look at the demographics of any gaming convention and you'll see groups feel more welcome than others, that are not representative of the norm.

My experiences of sexisms in gaming groups are more prominent with the internet than IRL. I'm following a local RPG group on facebook and I read a couple of topics about sexism in the group members games and there are always people defending their opinion that it's makebelieve and that it's how realism is and how it shouldn't make people uncomfortable. Girl players opinions being a minority in those groups are usually shut down by the sheer amount of "logically opinionated" posts.
I predominantly remember the bigoted "it's made up, so it's okay" logic of it all.

So I'm a guy if it isn't obvious.
Since my late teens I've had my first run ins with nerd subculture in a local SF club and I was delighted to see that there were girl nerds (it was during the 90's, since I'm an 80' kid), the only thing that I found odd, was that there were card games present I remember there weren't any women present. I also remember that I thought card players were like super nerds and weren't as social as other people I met there.
My primary gaming poison back then were RPGs, which had some girl players, but not a lot.

Later I found out about miniature games through Blood Bowl, Confrontation and 40K (which I gave up after my demo because I was told how I was "supposed" to play it). So I had my spider sense tingling about Warhammer like games and avoided them because I thought that those games were played only by wannabe macho assholes. I only appeared on larger events to look at better painted minis and to be a waiter for my club (different one than the Science Fiction club I mentioned earlier) which was hosting the games.
Well as I found out there are ok people playing Warhammer games, but mostly are pushy macho wannabes. And I should add to my last post that I'm probably aware why girls avoid miniature games in my area.
One of my friends and the only girl at the club got into Malifaux through the hobby part of the game and I remember she shared the same experience with her Warhammer Fantasy demo as I had with 40K. She was told how she was supposed to play it.
I'm not sure if this is sexism, but it's too pushy of a way to get people in the game and even if I'm a guy I was put off by the machismo or however you call it.
Anyway, there were always sexist types of players present now that I remember, I've just learned how to avoid them in my games (which were usually RPGs) and for the Malifaux META it seems my henchman almost hand picked the players and rooted out wannabe assholes.
I don't know how he did it, but our META is quite pleasant.

On to the topic. I'd like to say that most of the male population I've associated in my life aren't aware about other gender, or sexual minorities problems and wouldn't even start to comprehend the problem after their first run in with a micro-sexism and what privilege means because from my experience they usually gloss over it.
I'm also aware that most of the guys aren't sexist, but there is some kind of indoctrinated sexism and homophobia hardwired in their heads (as well as my own), for instance how it's hard for ment to cry and speak honestly about their feelings (without it having an every day banter cover up story).
In my experiencemost of the sexist and homofobic stereotypes come from peoples upbringing.
I think it's a hard journey for most men (even for me on some points) to become aware to sexism, because they aren't brought up to see it from the view point of other gender, or sexual minority. Nowdays it seems it's easier to come into contact with social awareness, but somehow people still find it weird and won't think too much into it.

I have a hard time accepting something when I'm told how it is, before I'm able to process it on my own terms and other people are probably like me and are slow to accept facts from a different point of view. But life makes you more aware to other people and if you choose to open up you can talk with almost anyone and share opinions on the same level. It's just that drama happens in between your awareness moments...
I think I got myself derailed, sorry for the long post and probably bad English and stumbling through my words.
I've tried to write from both opposite ways of tumbling with this topic, I hope I made sense...

And as the lunarsol said (I'm paraphrasing): awareness is the key.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Linus Mcmold
clumsy sentences and grammar

[Pete]

1 hour ago, 7thSquirrel said:

If I have a piece of paper colored in different shades of blue, I would say the paper is blue.

If I section off a corner of that paper, I would say that section is blue.

even though it is the entire paper that is blue, a section of it is still blue, even if it is no more/less blue then the rest of it.
paper = society, blue = sexism/racism/other "...ism"s, section in the corner = gaming ( a part of the greater whole of society)

Now if we decided that the color blue was bad I would try to erase it anywhere I could on that piece of paper. However, the scope of this forum doesn't apply to the whole of the paper, so we fix it where we can, even if it is just a corner.

Edit: Its not about assigning blame, its about making it better in areas that we can affect.
Edit 2: not to say we shouldn't try to make it better everywhere, but we know we can start here because everyone here has common ground and a way to communicate

The piece of paper is entirely inanimate so it's a really bad comparison.

[Ookami_Tez]

2 hours ago, Solicitor 6 said:

Whenever someone goes "that doesn't happen in my community" or "I have never treated a woman/LGBTQ/ethnic minority/religious minority like that," you are taking away from the experience of the individual who has and making it about yourself, which subtly undermines them. 

Aren't you also undermining his experience on how he sees the community?

It is odd to me how so many seem to think that people reacting to women differently then to men is already sexism. I find women attractive so when I meet a woman who I am attracted to I tend to change my mannerism from what I would do with a guy. This is not sexism. And true some may be a douche about it. But I still don't find that sexism. Sexism means a person has a prejudice or is discriminating because of it. Just making a off colored joke about a girl sitting in his lap is not sexism. It is probably his way of flirting. Not very well. And I can understand that you would be awkward or even a bit disgusted about it. But that doesn't make it sexism.

But I am confused about this. Cause where I see girls gaming. Be it at a con away from my usual gaming friends or at the local shop. Women are always held sacred. This is even a stereotype based on real stuff. The girl who comes into a group where males make up the majority and they are treated way better then their male counterparts.

Aaargh. Can't compress thoughts to good words. Will try again tomorrow need sleep now.

[Viks_Masamune]

Wyrd, tell your staff to gather around as I lay down this one important tenat...that's it, come on in.  You ready?  Ok, here goes...Do not make this wonderful game into some type of political or social crusade.  It's a game.  We are adults.  I understand that there are some "sensitive" people out there who are chomping at the bit to find ANYTHING to point and scream at, but do your best to understand that your core fans are reasonable adults, and enjoy the game on its main merit, and that is entertainment.  

Edited April 7, 2016 by Aaron
Unneeded hostility.

[cegorach]

28 minutes ago, Ookami_Tez said:

Just making a off colored joke about a girl sitting in his lap is not sexism. It is probably his way of flirting. Not very well. And I can understand that you would be awkward or even a bit disgusted about it. But that doesn't make it sexism.

Yes it is. The implication is sex - she's not sitting in his lap to read Dostoevsky.

The 'joke' is that instead of being a person, she's a sex object that can be passed around - and with the example given, the objectification is even more depersonalised given her partner is present. Dude, this is a REAL PERSON. She's RIGHT HERE (in this thread). This is not OK. This is not a 'joke'.

This is not flirting, bad or otherwise.

This is an awful, insecure man trying to exert power over a woman in order to get the approval of his peers. He's putting her down, reducing her to a joke. Using her gender as a weapon to utterly minimise and bully her to make himself look big in front of his friends.

That's the very definition of sexism.

No kidding, anyone who did that to my fiance in front of me would be laid out on the floor a second later. Figuratively speaking of course. And that's not because she can't defend herself, it's just that she's a lot nicer than I am  

What I am seeing from your posts are a lot of assertions that implicitly support people doing these awful things. As I said before, it's clear you don't mean to do any harm. I guess what I'd ask you to consider is while that's the case, choosing to downplay or minimise these things directly contributes to them happening.

The reason why horrible men do horrible things is that they know that most of the time they will be surrounded by people with views similar to those you have put forward - well meaning, but not particularly concerned about these matters and most likely to write them off as 'jokes' or 'harmless'.

No guy would dare make that kind of joke in front of me - at least he would never do it twice. And I'm OK with that. My partner is not an object for someone else to use for their own insecurity. And neither is anyone else's if I'm in the room.

Would you be OK with someone else using your partner that way?

[cegorach]

16 minutes ago, Viksmasamune said:

Wyrd, tell your staff to gather around as I lay down this one important tenat...that's it, come on in.  You ready?  Ok, here goes...Do not make this wonderful game into some type of political or social crusade.  It's a game.  We are adults.  I understand that there are some "sensitive" people out there who are chomping at the bit to find ANYTHING to point and scream at, but do your best to understand that your core fans are reasonable adults, and enjoy the game on its main merit, and that is entertainment.  

I don't think it's main merit is just 'entertainment'. It's about being 'social' - there's so much more to it.

And that broad spectrum includes the awful behaviour that DOES exist - behaviour you are trying to downplay in counter to it simply being recognised by Wyrd.

This is not about people being 'sensitive'. This is about me, and many, many others, personally knowing people who have suffered experiences of abuse through gaming. And when you try and minimise their experiences by calling it 'sensitivity', I really wish you could be sat in a room with just one of these people and hear a blow by blow account of the pain they suffered. And that's just one. There will be thousands, across the world. Those stories in the post that kicked this all off? I've heard much worse. Utterly horrifying stuff.

Wyrd are not even vaguely making this a crusade. They have responded as best as can be done to an unsubstantiated allegation that has gained a lot of traction because so many people identify with the core message.

They have responded by actually taking a stand to make their position clear, instead of angrily rebutting and ending up with all the Men's Rights Activists and other assorted awful people coming out from under their rocks to provide support. That's what a lot of other companies would have done and it would turn these forums into a smoking pit of toxicity.

By handing it the way they have not only has plenty of constructive, polite debate been had, but the more...extreme...people have realised that this isn't something they can leverage to spew poison.

In terms of marketing and PR, not to mention basic human decency, Wyrd have chosen the best practice approach to manage this and I applaud them for it.

[Gnomezilla]

To Tokapondora, without quoting, top of page 5:

I know why the 'don't just say it's not a local problem' rule was set in this discussion; I agree it is needed otherwise true stories of problems will be shouted down; I also say your post is the best possible disagreement with it. They were good views, written well. To all the guys crying reverse-sexism, read Tokopondora, let him speak for you, without rancor and without repression.

[Lucidicide]

Alriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Wyrdos. I'm tired, which means my moderation may take a dark turn... so I'm locking for the night.

See you in the morning!

[yool1981]

17 hours ago, Talismaniical said:

Just two weeks ago I went into the store I've been going to for 3 years and got a comment about it being "welcome" if I fell into a guy's lap and it'd be "bad for you, but great for me!" after I said excuse me and apologized for causing extra distress in a crowded room just to walk by while my boyfriend (who's hand I was holding at the time) was not even half a foot away from me. 

While that's not the worst of things I and other women have experienced, it's those tiny things that make it really uncomfortable to even say the most mundane of things. I laughed at the time, trying not to make a big deal of it and take it as "a compliment", but it still made it hard to get up and go walking by again for fear of actually falling onto this guy. And of course, then my BF was mad for about an hour or two until the guy left the store. Adding to that, now our entire D&D table was awkward and uncomfortable about bringing up anything risque on the off chance this guy ran off his mouth again (he's not known for keeping his face closed and he commented on it again to a few other people VERY loudly). 

On almost every occasion that's "nerd related", I have a majority of people ignore me and turn to talk to my BF or ask him rules when, not even a minute prior, he's explained that he's new to the subject and doesn't know it as well as I do. OR, the subject shifts from the actual awesome geeky conversation to "Wow, you're like a unicorn". Then of course, there's the weird looks from across the room. I've been boob grabbed and ass slapped in other locations, had people flat out question if I even knew what I was talking about, tell me to stop talking so "the boys can talk" despite being the LITERAL store designated rep for the product being discussed, have experienced the awkward commentary of "needing to clone you so that everyone can have you" or being asked to sit on someone's lap. 

Little things add up and while from the outside they don't seem "That bad", they are. 

Just for my information, where do you live exactly? I have a hard time understanding why any bystander would tolerate this kind of behaviour, especially boob grabbing or ass slapping (this is very offensive in my book).

I am not doubting the truth of it, I am just wondering where such a thing can happen in modern Western society.

In a way, you are "lucky" this happened this way. Because there were witnesses to the behaviour.

The cases of harassment I have seen in "real life" (we have very few women in our gaming club so I have never encountered a case in my "gaming life") are a lot more dangerous and destructive. They happen when nobody is looking. The guy will get close to the girl, even if blatantly unwelcome (and even openly rebuked), will insist heavily about his room location and even assault her when there is no witness. Some guys go even so far as to sneakily give GHB (I think it's called roofies in English no?) to girls. Then it is even worse for the girl because she has no proof or anything.

Any of the above things actually happened to more than one friend of mine. They don't talk about this much because this is still taboo somehow. Nevertheless, I have been told too many stories of the same kind by too many different women that I can easily believe that there are some assholes out there that can do very shitty things.

[Dirial]

15 hours ago, Pete said:

Why is it an horrible concept? It's an observation of reality (or asking for one if you prefer). While gaming is part of society it's not all of it. Key word being part. If you're sick and you've got a fever, there's no point in focusing on the fact that you're filling cold. It's a symptom, your flu is the problem. Same here. We can sooth the symptom of sexism that pop up here and there, but if you want to "fix" the problem you are most definitly looking in the wrong place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't believe our culture or "subculture" is sexist.

The societal norm for sexism is a horrible concept just like murder is a horrible concept. It might be an observation of reality, just like murder, but that doesn't make it less horrible.

Also, making a discrimination between sexism as a cause (as you claim for sexism in society) and as a symptom (sexism in gaming) seems really artificial. Thus, to stay in your image of a somatic illness: It not "feeling cold while you have a fever". It's more like a cancer. Yes, it may have started somewhere else in the body. But it has infected the hand. Just because you know it didn't start there or isn't even worst in the hand, doesn't mean you stop treating it in the hand.

What I'm trying to say: Gaming is a sexist sub-culture. It doesn't really matter if it's more or less sexist than the past/the rest of the world/the rest of society/the LGS you frequent/the game of another company/what have you. It only matters if there is sexism and how we can achieve that it's less sexism in the future.

[Talismaniical]

1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

Just for my information, where do you live exactly? I have a hard time understanding why any bystander would tolerate this kind of behaviour, especially boob grabbing or ass slapping (this is very offensive in my book). .. SNIP SNOP ..Nevertheless, I have been told too many stories of the same kind by too many different women that I can easily believe that there are some assholes out there that can do very shitty things.

I've lived in five different states in the US and I've been going to conventions in those states and others for a good number of years now. In all of these locations, I've had some level of negative experiences. No, I pinky swear I don't find the dirtiest store I can and go snooping there. (In fact, the dirtiest part of my current store is this one woman who came in three weeks ago and dropped such a massive load that the bathroom has just never been the same... No matter how much bleach, it's tainted forever. FOREVER.) In a good majority of my own situations, no one had noticed what happened or didn't even realize it was a problem in the first place, in the same way that a good number of people have gone "I've never seen that before, what are you talking about, that doesn't happen" or "but isn't that GREAT? Someone thinks you're attractive!". 

But even when people are witness to things or are informed about something that happened, sometimes, they've already made their own opinions. I've been told a lot of "get over it" and "it could have been worse, so drop it" type things over pointing out things that bothered me. I know other girls who have been told that they're lying or that it's natural because "boys are boys" and "boys can't stop thinking about their weiners, you know! haha!". Among other things.

As I said earlier though, the responses closely aligned with the phrase "Where is that? That doesn't happen here" or "YOUR place is bad" tend to not be beneficial ( I know that you specifically didn't intend to offend with the question, this is more of a blanket statement to hopefully help others understand and approach the topic differently). There isn't a location where no bad things can ever happen. There's always the chance that someone, somewhere in the room, can do anything. There's always a chance that one person is actually kind of a douchecanoe in certain situations.

Be proud of where you are being free of the problems others have experienced, but never stop being aware that it could happen. I, and I'm sure others, are extremely happy to know that some of you haven't experienced what we have, just don't let that block you from understanding and being honestly aware that there's always a chance of bullhonkey happening. Just because bad things can happen, doesn't mean you can't still have fun.  

14 hours ago, Ookami_Tez said:

Sniiiiip ~Just making a off colored joke about a girl sitting in his lap is not sexism. It is probably his way of flirting. Not very well. And I can understand that you would be awkward or even a bit disgusted about it. But that doesn't make it sexism. ~ Sniiiiiiiip

On the subject of "Awkward Flirting", yes, that could have been his way of trying. However, saying that falling into his lap on accident would be "bad for you, good for me!" doesn't really... feel quite like "I'd like to take you on a date, Girl I've Met, and get to know you". Mostly the "bad for you" part. If you want to flirt, putting in that the target of your flirting wouldn't enjoy being closer to you is a bit.. uh... well, it makes most people cringe, for lack of wanting to go into detail as to what everyone close to me thought when they overheard the phrase and looked in my direction. Maybe it was a flirt in poor taste, but when I cringed and recoiled and my boyfriend immediately put on his Angry Eyebrows, the guy kept going with it and talking awfully loudly about it being great for him. An entire room full of CCG players, three full 8 player D&D tables, and two full 8 player Pathfinder tables, as well as the working staff don't need to know how much pleasure you'd get if a girl fell on your lap and how much she'd not like it. I think Cegorach pretty much nailed the whole thing though. 

I'm gonna go ahead and add that being "held sacred" is just as frustrating. If I go into a store once a week and at minimum one person in the course of my first 30 minutes there points out how special I am for being there, it's not making my day any better. Being "held sacred" has led to plenty other issues, such as being treated like absolute garbage when asked not to be treated that way OR, the greatest moments of my life, being told that I'm a slut for "leading someone on" because they were nice to me and a few weeks later, I didn't ask them out on a date. Also, being treated as a sacred creature of legend is a form of sexism IF it's based on gender, not the worst level of it, but still is it by definition.

Which is why I say that it's more of a matter of awareness. Obviously there ARE girls who like being treated special (at one point, I thought it was awesome, until the slut incident), and by all means, totally continue as such. BUT it takes very little to figure out who's enjoying that kind of behavior and who isn't. Even the polite "I don't like this, but just smile and nod" facial expression can be pretty easily seen through.

It also requires all of us, if we are uncomfortable, to speak up more.

I wont say I did the right thing by not speaking up. I should have. I talked my boyfriend out of losing his shit. I should have let him speak if he wanted to. I should have done a lot of things that I didn't.

 

13 hours ago, cegorach said:

Yes it is. The implication is sex - she's not sitting in his lap to read Dostoevsky.

Snip Snap

Would you be OK with someone else using your partner that way?

 

Thank you for replying! It's really good to know that I can go offline and there are still people around who speak up on the behalf of others. I actually got kind of used to opening my big mouth, writing essay length posts to try and politely explain or discuss things (I am so sorry to all you slow readers), and being harassed off of forums. I expected to wake up to a ban or eighteen pages of "UGH, YOU PEOPLE. RUINING MY HAPPY LAND WITH YOUR SHENANIGANS!".

 

Okay, I think I've written a college paper on this at this point. Lemme just.. uh... *slowly clicks submit reply* 

[Ookami_Tez]

Few quick things.

Having a sexuality against a woman isn't sexism. As some seem to find. Even if it is insulting the way it is shown.

One more interesting thing I see about this situation is that people who say they have been harassed are taken as true and taken as they show all of community but people who say they don't encounter it are just anecdotal evidence.

[paradoxstorm]

39 minutes ago, Dirial said:

 

What I'm trying to say: Gaming is a sexist sub-culture. It doesn't really matter if it's more or less sexist than the past/the rest of the world/the rest of society/the LGS you frequent/the game of another company/what have you. It only matters if there is sexism and how we can achieve that it's less sexism in the future.

It is profoundly important how our sub-culture compares to the culture at large.  

If we are objectively worse than society at large, then we should be horrified and make cleaning our house the only subject of discussion.

If we are objectively better than society at large we should both celebrate our status and use that knowledge to bring more women into gaming.  At a minimum knowing that respectful behavior is the norm will shape the behavior of those who are outside the norm--it will further reduce problem sexism and we can go back to rules arguments.

If more women do become part of the community low levels of problem sexism lose much of their power.  See the comments from the woman earlier in this thread saying the worst part is being all alone--she is spot on.  With a sufficiently large group of women for mutual social support a great deal of mild problem sexism is effectively neutralized.  Mild sexist behavior such as referring to women gamers as "girls" while threatening when the woman is the one and only woman in the environment becomes much less so when 40% of the folks in the environment are women.  

I use "problem sexism" deliberately.  The discussion in this thread is far to absolutist in that it treats all forms of sexism as equal and evil.  Yet everyone who has suggested stepping in to defend women against sexist behavior are engaging sexism--coming to the aid of the helpless princess--and viewing such as positive.  Training our sons to hold doors for women and expecting a higher level of behavior when they are with their girlfriend than when they are with their boy friends is sexist---but I expect most of us would endorse this form of sexism.    

And there seems to be a deliberate avoidance of degrees of problem sexism.  I notice that "girl" has been used as a synonym for "woman" in this thread and yet no one objected to this sexist usage.  Why?  Such usage in the mid-1970's would have earned you a multi-page telling off, yet today nobody blinks.  It didn't stop being sexist, it just reached the point where very few people care.  At least no one in this discussion cares.

 

[Lucidicide]

1 minute ago, Ookami_Tez said:

One more interesting thing I see about this situation is that people who say they have been harassed are taken as true and taken as they show all of community but people who say they don't encounter it are just anecdotal evidence.

This is a discussion about harassment, which happens. Sharing the experience might help us learn from it.

People who don't encounter won't really help us learn, and can be seen as dismissive. While it is great that many people don't encounter sexism in their communities, that fact is not particularly pertinent to the discussion about the sexism that does happen.

That's why one side, in this particular discussion, does get more weight.

[yool1981]

4 minutes ago, paradoxstorm said:

 I notice that "girl" has been used as a synonym for "woman" in this thread and yet no one objected to this sexist usage.  Why?

I don't see the problem with the "girl" word. But I am not a native English speaker. In my native langage there is no ill meaning.

Could you please kindly develop as to why this is offensive so that I avoid repeating the same mistake?