"By your side" and Charges

[Wazzu]

Sidir's ability 'By your Side' upgrade and ability states that Sidir is now the target of the action 'regardless of range of Los'. This works fine for most abilities, but how does it work for charges?

It triggers before a model would move, but then Sidir is target regardless of range or Los - do they need to move into melee range of Sidir? Do they need to end in melee range of the original target? Can they move wherever they want (in a straight line) because range no longer matters?

[solkan]

On 2016/4/6 at 11:04 PM, Myyrä said:

Charge action doesn't have range, no matter how many people say otherwise. That means that only the LoS ignoring part comes to play. If you can't complete charge action against Sidir successfully while ignoring LoS when declaring it, you are out of luck.

There's a problem with that, though:

Quote

This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement range or this Action may not be taken.

So Player A declares that their model is going to charge, Player B invokes 'By Your Side' to change the charge target, and if the model can't reach Sidir the game breaks--the game's in an illegal game, play unable to continue yet both players made valid declarations.

 

[solkan]

Edit:  Or, the radical interpretation: 

 

[Myyrä]

Charge action doesn't have range, no matter how many people say otherwise. That means that only the LoS ignoring part comes to play. If you can't complete charge action against Sidir successfully while ignoring LoS when declaring it, you are out of luck.

[spielervier]

This ability has two parts where only one is relevant for charges, the LoS.

Charges are only allowed to be taken if the target ends within melee engagement range of your active miniature. But as the Cg value doesn't increase, the "range extender" part of this ability is worthless for charges. Although you could still declare a charge (I guess as the rule only states "be taken"), it'll just be a waste of action points.

The LoS ignoring part can be helpful thou. Image someone standing around a corner of a sight-blocking terrain piece, but only 1/2" away from that corner. These could now be targeted.

[Myyrä]

12 hours ago, solkan said:

There's a problem with that, though:

So Player A declares that their model is going to charge, Player B invokes 'By Your Side' to change the charge target, and if the model can't reach Sidir the game breaks--the game's in an illegal game, play unable to continue yet both players made valid declarations.

 

Player A declares charge, spends ap, chooses target etc. -> Sidir decides to jump in and is now the target of the charge action regardless of LoS. -> If it isn't possible to complete charge action so that Sidir is within the charging model's engagement range, charge can't be taken.

Where did the game rules break down?

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Player A declares charge, spends ap, chooses target etc. -> Sidir decides to jump in and is now the target of the charge action regardless of LoS. -> If it isn't possible to complete charge action so that Sidir is within the charging model's engagement range, charge can't be taken.

Where did the game rules break down?

The part where the charge can't be taken, which invalidates the declaration which invalidates the use of By Your Side making the declaration invalid.

Quote

By Your Side: Once per turn, when a friendly model within 5" and LoS of this model is targeted by an enemy model's Action, this model may be placed in base contact with the friendly model. This model is now the target of the Action, regardless of range or LoS.

vs.

Quote

This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement range or this Action may not be taken.

If the charge isn't taken, then nothing caused By Your Side to resolve, Sidr doesn't move, and no action points are spent.  Yet in order to become the target of the charge Sidr has to be placed by By Your Side.

So you're left with the situation where no action points are spent, the once per turn ability isn't used, and neither player has any reason to change their declaration, either the Charge declaration or the By Your Side declaration, and the game doesn't continue. 

[Myyrä]

12 minutes ago, solkan said:

The part where the charge can't be taken, which invalidates the declaration which invalidates the use of By Your Side making the declaration invalid.

vs.

If the charge isn't taken, then nothing caused By Your Side to resolve, Sidr doesn't move, and no action points are spent.  Yet in order to become the target of the charge Sidr has to be placed by By Your Side.

So you're left with the situation where no action points are spent, the once per turn ability isn't used, and neither player has any reason to change their declaration, either the Charge declaration or the By Your Side declaration, and the game doesn't continue. 

So you are saying that the game breaks down, because after Sidir decides to use By Your Side, you need to travel back in time, because "take" (which isn't a defined game term) may include declaring the target? How much money are you willing to bet the FAQ will agree with you?

[lusciousmccabe]

I think it's worth raising the question since you can ask a similar one about other abilities which make charging into a particular area illegal. They tend not tocome up too much because of premeasuring, but it's still not clear what happens if you've already declared a charge and then find out you can't get into engagement with the intended target.

Although mostly I just think By Your Side should say Attack Action instead :P.

[lusciousmccabe]

Probably depends on what humour Justin is in.  

[Myyrä]

16 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I think it's worth raising the question since you can ask a similar one about other abilities which make charging into a particular area illegal. They tend not tocome up too much because of premeasuring, but it's still not clear what happens if you've already declared a charge and then find out you can't get into engagement with the intended target.

Raising the question is fine, but I'm fairly confident the answer isn't going to be "Rocks fall, everyone dies.".