An Adepticon Tournament Report - 1st

[Bodiless]

I think it is also telling that in his last three games he was up against some variation on the rat engine himself. 

[Adran]

Two of those 3 variations was actually Hamlin, and one stopped Icemyns own rat engine, but they still all lost. 

Icemyn is obviously a very good player, and most certainly makes the most of some very strong stuff. 

But a year ago we had this thread

about Leveticus  and his ability to hire out of faction so easily. Now he doesn't even take a Paraih upgrade during his adeptecon win. 

There are ways to counter the Rat engine, and is it does become more prevalent then we will see more and more solutions to it in opposing lists. Then  we will see if it is too strong. 

I have tried playing the rat engine a few times, and will admit that I went for a budget version, which wasn't always going to get a rat king on the first turn, and it didn't fire for me (prehaps I was too greedy and wasn't prepared to kill the wretch when I ought too). Not only do you really want the Rat engine, but you also need to have a crew of Glass cannons to take the greatest advantage of it. And the Colette player was almost able to stop it with his reactivating Myranda. 

I've faced it a few times and play around the out activation. It makes my first turns harder, but not yet impossible. It may be I've not faced it with someone as good as Icemyan controlling it. 

That said, I think this thread is really useful. If the rat control is warping the whole game so that you need to plan to face it everytime you face outcasts, then something need to be changed. 

Hiring  4 rats without the merging options will still probably give you activation control for the first few turns, but it is to a lesser extent. How many extra activations really matters here? I can face Kirai with 12+ activations on the first turn, and it normally only goes up. For most of these lists, them getting 1 activation more than me is enough for them to hit without retaliation (or only minimum). 

 

 

 

[Fog]

I've been testing these lists against local players, as I was hoping to unleash this absurdity myself, but I couldn't make adepticon so I guess I can't be part of the problem anymore.

The biggest issue with this interaction isn't even how powerful or unbeatable the combination is, and it is quite potent. The issue is that this will warp and redefine the meta until the game is no longer recognizable as Malifaux. 

One of the *key* changes between editions is the removal of endless chain activations and this interaction all but reinstates them, albeit for a single faction.

[Icemyn]

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

Two of those 3 variations was actually Hamlin, and one stopped Icemyns own rat engine, but they still all lost. 

Icemyn is obviously a very good player, and most certainly makes the most of some very strong stuff. 

But a year ago we had this thread

about Leveticus  and his ability to hire out of faction so easily. Now he doesn't even take a Paraih upgrade during his adeptecon win. 

There are ways to counter the Rat engine, and is it does become more prevalent then we will see more and more solutions to it in opposing lists. Then  we will see if it is too strong. 

I have tried playing the rat engine a few times, and will admit that I went for a budget version, which wasn't always going to get a rat king on the first turn, and it didn't fire for me (prehaps I was too greedy and wasn't prepared to kill the wretch when I ought too). Not only do you really want the Rat engine, but you also need to have a crew of Glass cannons to take the greatest advantage of it. And the Colette player was almost able to stop it with his reactivating Myranda. 

I've faced it a few times and play around the out activation. It makes my first turns harder, but not yet impossible. It may be I've not faced it with someone as good as Icemyan controlling it. 

That said, I think this thread is really useful. If the rat control is warping the whole game so that you need to plan to face it everytime you face outcasts, then something need to be changed. 

Hiring  4 rats without the merging options will still probably give you activation control for the first few turns, but it is to a lesser extent. How many extra activations really matters here? I can face Kirai with 12+ activations on the first turn, and it normally only goes up. For most of these lists, them getting 1 activation more than me is enough for them to hit without retaliation (or only minimum). 

 

 

 

In my defense I stand by everything I said last year and still believe it to be true. Just because I did not take Rainbow Leveticus this year does not mean it is not problematic in general. That is like saying we should not worry about North Korea because they don't have nukes. In the time between last year and now I found an even more absurd thing to do. Additionally I wanted to play rainbow Levy in one of the rounds this year, but I misplaced the stat cards. Leveticus is still problematic, I hope we can agree on that. 

Also the Collette player was no where near able to stop it with reactivating Myranda. Please don't let that be a takeaway. Myranda could have charged a formed rat king and maybe even put the hurt on it, likely not killing it though. The following cerebus is then very dead to the masters still sitting there. (Leveticus or Viktorias). That said his list put the fear in me and I deployed the rats very far back to ensure their safety. 

 

[Breng77]

Yeah I can see a Colette list that could cause it issues, but it is a very specific list and it would require the right cards to make it work.  In reality though all it would likely do is force my opponent to not wait out all my activations but instead kill the stuff I send their way.  So instead of waiting until the end of turn to cripple stuff I force them to do it earlier.

[Adran]

Thanks for that reply. 

Leveticus is certainly a very strong master, at the top end of the power curve, but a lot of his originaly seen power was, in my opinion, people not knowing how to face him. 

I was probably reading too much into the colette game, but it seems like he disrupted your plan, and meant you had to change your game plan. And I'd say he seemed unlucky to not kill a waif. How much that would have changed the game I don't know, but if levi doesn't have choices where to deploy he is much easier to handle. Its more that extra activations don't win you the game, they let you dictate the pace of the game, and the colette player was able to disrupt your attempt to control the pace of the game. 

[Tawg]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Thanks for that reply. 

Leveticus is certainly a very strong master, at the top end of the power curve, but a lot of his originaly seen power was, in my opinion, people not knowing how to face him. 

I was probably reading too much into the colette game, but it seems like he disrupted your plan, and meant you had to change your game plan. And I'd say he seemed unlucky to not kill a waif. How much that would have changed the game I don't know, but if levi doesn't have choices where to deploy he is much easier to handle. Its more that extra activations don't win you the game, they let you dictate the pace of the game, and the colette player was able to disrupt your attempt to control the pace of the game. 

I think the biggest issue with controlling the pace of the game, as you say, is that if you can manage to get off a single alpha-strike exclusively because of that pace control then you can effectively neuter your opponent.  And while this doesn't, in itself, guarantee you've won, it means that you are becoming far beyond in control for the match as things progress.

Or at least, that's how I understand this to be an issue.  The control itself is not game breaking, if that's all it enabled.  But the issue is it then lets you take advantage of other far riskier moves, like throwing your heaviest hitter into someone's whole crew, and eliminating the risk normally associated there.

I'd also like to point out that, while Icemyn stated the conversion of points throughout the process of transforming the rat engine stays at 8ss, I am curious of the issue with that.  I think the key difference between Rats and the other two options you stated, for Arcanids and Abombs, they can go back and forth.  So, I'm not looking at my books right now, but is that not true for the Rats?  Because if the rat transformation is one way, then I think that is the reason they believed it was alright to allow.  Where as the other two you listed need the cost variation because they have the potential to reverse the transformation, and if on equal pricing, there would be no reason not to transform back and forth?  I could be wrong on this point, I'm more bringing it up for discussion since I'm not a high level player, and curious if this is true.

[Bodiless]

Is there any good way to punish the rat bomb list for spending so many activations just messing around? For example, a Tara/I Pay Better/Sniper list? If you could use the meat of your list to damage the core elements of the rat engine list (ie everyone else) then it seems like you might be able to force the pace yourself. Not sure how that would actually work out, just thinking as I type...  

[Ludvig]

Could gremlins effectively outspam this list? Exploding piggies to the limit with a sprinkling of killjoy and bayous, maybe a pigapult for placing stuff where you want it? It would lack some of the other slingshot elements and not fix the problem for other factions just add to it really, but hey!

[Myyrä]

7 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Could gremlins effectively outspam this list? Exploding piggies to the limit with a sprinkling of killjoy and bayous, maybe a pigapult for placing stuff where you want it? It would lack some of the other slingshot elements and not fix the problem for other factions just add to it really, but hey!

Gremlins can never outspam rats with similar resource investment. Every four rats you take give you 8+ activations if you want.

[Ludvig]

14 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Gremlins can never outspam rats with similar resource investment. Every four rats you take give you 8+ activations if you want.

If only anyone had remarked on this during beta... Oh right, they did didn't they?

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If only anyone had remarked on this during beta... Oh right, they did didn't they?

Wouldn't know. Wasn't playing Malifaux back then.

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Wouldn't know. Wasn't playing Malifaux back then.

I seem to remember a lot of controversy surrounding rats and Hamelin.

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, Tawg said:

I'd also like to point out that, while Icemyn stated the conversion of points throughout the process of transforming the rat engine stays at 8ss, I am curious of the issue with that.  I think the key difference between Rats and the other two options you stated, for Arcanids and Abombs, they can go back and forth.  So, I'm not looking at my books right now, but is that not true for the Rats?  Because if the rat transformation is one way, then I think that is the reason they believed it was alright to allow.  Where as the other two you listed need the cost variation because they have the potential to reverse the transformation, and if on equal pricing, there would be no reason not to transform back and forth?  I could be wrong on this point, I'm more bringing it up for discussion since I'm not a high level player, and curious if this is true.

Arachnids can't split up at all. Two Abominations will fall out of Desolation Engine when it's killed, but it can't go back voluntarily and you need four to form up again.

[Omenbringer]

11 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

I agree that the rat engine is very potent. Time will tell if it's potent enough to need cuddling. There does tend to be a knee jerk reaction to whatever the latest trick is, especially after a big tournament.  I'm sure if it proves problematic over time Justin and co will take action.

Though I agree that often "new hotness, ubber potent, broken interaction" threads tend to be knee jerk and fairly full of hyperbole, however, with things like this waiting is not always a good idea. I would rather see it addressed quickly (even if that means multiple patches) than prolonged (searching for the perfect solution like last edition Hamelin). The OP laid out the interaction well and as pointed out there were several variations on the theme present in just his game reports. Additionally, as pointed out this particular interaction was also somewhat discovered during play testing (one of the issues with public play tests is the incredible ratio of noise to signal diminishing observations).

8 hours ago, Viagrus said:

If Hamelin is dependent on this kind of tactic and the idea is to alter Rats and Wretches maybe add abilities to one of Hamelin's upgrade that ignores those alterations. It is a large amount of errata, but it could be an appropriate approach to fixing this issue. All this coming from an armchair game designer, so enjoy your grain (or stone) of salt.

A large amount of Errata would be preferable to leaving this in the game. An abuse like this can quickly ruin a community much like the original Master Hamelin crew abuses did last edition.

7 hours ago, Fog said:

The biggest issue with this interaction isn't even how powerful or unbeatable the combination is, and it is quite potent. The issue is that this will warp and redefine the meta until the game is no longer recognizable as Malifaux. 

One of the *key* changes between editions is the removal of endless chain activations and this interaction all but reinstates them, albeit for a single faction.

I would agree with your assessment. It might be beatable by a specific crew build when piloted by an excellent player that also happens to have a run of favorable luck (great flips for him and poor flips for his opponent) but at that point is it even worth playing the game? Back during my Warmachine days (Mk 1) I was able to beat the dreaded Haley Turtle with the High Reclaimer but never enjoyed those games (the closest description I can provide for thosee games was like watching two turtles mating in the dark). For me, more than a bit of the potency of this interaction is in the time that it can chew up during competitive events which usually have a limit on that particular resource.

Though some of the abuses of last edition were addressed during the change, more and more it seems they were just veiled (usually by making them a bit more difficult) or tied to other models.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is one of the reasons I am such an advocate of the massively unpopular opinion that Wyrd should slow the development cycle. As each new book gets released the possibility of balancing things becomes exponentially more untenable (if not impossible given the insanely short time allotted for them). Let the current potent interactions shake out before adding more to the mix, its not like there aren't models that are still awaiting release (and likely of introducing more potent interactions once they hit physical release and see more play).

[Drool_bucket]

So I was Icemyn's fourth round opponent.  And I'd like to just add four simple opinions to the discussion here.

1. Icemyn is a very good player.  As in one of the best I've seen.  That means that no matter which "gimmick" he may choose to use, its going to be very effective and seem overpowered.  This said, I don't feel that his level of play invalidates this argument because:

2. I use it myself, but not with Killyjoy but instead the Viks...  and in that instance it works stupid good as well.  I think even beginner players could make use of it to frustrate anyone.

3. The problem is beyond just "take four rats for 8 activations for one turn," because a patient player that takes the Obedient Wretch will choose when he wants to make use of it, or often just out activate most, if not all, of the game.  I say this because its what I do with Hamelin.  But as Icemyn says in his original post, Hamelin is "balanced" around this type of activation control.  The other Outcast Masters benefit to a much higher degree and alter the balance level with its inclusion.  What I am trying to say is you can make use (abuse) this 10-ish Soulstone investment in many various ways beyond what Icemyn (and others including myself) did at AdeptiCon.  Therefore;

4. I would strongly support the removal of the Obedient Wretch, and only the Wretch, from non-Hamelin Outcast crews.  While "Eight Soulstones, Eight Activations" plus "use Infectious Melodies to delivery Killjoy" are powerful (and surprising) tactics, they are investments and I consider them valid tactics.  To me,  The Wretch is more problematic for sustainable abuse.  I heard a few fixes as well, but the simple addition of the line "This model may only be hired by crews led by Hamelin" is a simple fix which I think would alleviate a lot of the problem I perceive.

[Tawg]

1 hour ago, Drool_bucket said:

I would strongly support the removal of the Obedient Wretch, and only the Wretch, from non-Hamelin Outcast crews.  While "Eight Soulstones, Eight Activations" plus "use Infectious Melodies to delivery Killjoy" are powerful (and surprising) tactics, they are investments and I consider them valid tactics.  To me,  The Wretch is more problematic for sustainable abuse.  I heard a few fixes as well, but the simple addition of the line "This model may only be hired by crews led by Hamelin" is a simple fix which I think would alleviate a lot of the problem I perceive.

I would trust a man with a name like this 

 

Although to be fair, Wyrd is very methodical about their fixes to the game, and overall erratas.  So if this does end up cropping up more, they might make a move, but I do believe they will wait to see it become more of an issue.  Plenty of tournaments coming up during the summer, right?

[Omenbringer]

Perhaps it will show up at Origins or GenCon, both of which will have Wyrd personnel at them, so they can see it first hand. Any of you Adepticon players heading down for either of those?

[LunarSol]

Raises an interesting question about the base value of an activation.  Just as a thought exercise and not as a fix for this, if you could spend a SS from your cache to pass your activation, how much would you value that ability?  How many SS would you take to fuel it? 

The scary thing about the rat ball is, in general, there are very very few things in the game that give you an activation for 2 SS, and this gives you activations at a cost of less than 1 stone each.  That alone is an eyebrow raiser in my mind.

[Icemyn]

Unfortunately as I am getting married this year I have to limit my travels and cannot make GenCon among another's. I would like to make Nova, but it may sell out before I can commit. 

The reality however is no matter how many games I personally play or home many tournaments a strategy wins there will still be the naysayers believing it to be fine. 

At the end of the day rat activations: 

1) Are not fair

2) Are not fun 

3) Break core game mechanics. 

I think one of those would be enough for a change, much less all. 

[4thstringer]

So I have 2 questions,  abd they may be stupid.   1.  Why didn't we see this more last year? Is it the new gg or just a new discovery?

 

2. What was your brothers plan for dealing with it?

[LunarSol]

Last year there weren't rat king models outside of proxies. People knew about it and even talked about how powerful it is but things don't really seem to take off until real models exist. 

[Math Mathonwy]

9 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

This is one of the reasons I am such an advocate of the massively unpopular opinion that Wyrd should slow the development cycle. As each new book gets released the possibility of balancing things becomes exponentially more untenable (if not impossible given the insanely short time allotted for them). Let the current potent interactions shake out before adding more to the mix, its not like there aren't models that are still awaiting release (and likely of introducing more potent interactions once they hit physical release and see more play).

This whole post was solid gold but I couldn't agree more with this last part! I think that a book's worth of new models every year is going to wreck Malifaux. Things like these come up in betas but they don't really take off until the models are released and there have been betas for two new books before the second book's models were even nearly fully out. And the more models, the more interactions and stuff like this becomes even more difficult to spot. And the more models, the harder it is to make a new edition or a complete balancing pass.

[Armour]

12 hours ago, Drool_bucket said:

4. I would strongly support the removal of the Obedient Wretch, and only the Wretch, from non-Hamelin Outcast crews.  While "Eight Soulstones, Eight Activations" plus "use Infectious Melodies to delivery Killjoy" are powerful (and surprising) tactics, they are investments and I consider them valid tactics.  To me,  The Wretch is more problematic for sustainable abuse.  I heard a few fixes as well, but the simple addition of the line "This model may only be hired by crews led by Hamelin" is a simple fix which I think would alleviate a lot of the problem I perceive.

The wretch is certainly strong, but simply making him Hamelin-only won't stop the combo; starting with another two rats instead gives almost the same result for the same resources, only losing a single activation.

That said, it is difficult to say what should change with the combo.  It may be a seemingly unrelated change like Metal Gamin's cuddle which actually was to make the Mechanical Rider more reasonable.  Justin and the other Wyrd crew are good at finding tweaks that reduce NPEs and keep the game fun, and I'm confident we will see a fix here.

My meta is only starting out so we don't have anyone using the trick yet, but from a pure theory standpoint I can't think of any reliable counters to it for my faction (Arcanists).  

[chris_havoc]

This seems like a really brutal and overly efficient means of activation control as you say, it is an expensive investment at 32ss for all the bells and whistles but it is a game changer Turn 1 and the invested in models are still effective apart from this strategy. I am just thinking of ways to counter it and basically they rely on a significant amount of luck. The Piggapult may be a decent way to deal with it having a wide range and ignoring cover and los. Hans has been mentioned. Clockwork Traps and Pathfinders could cause problems but these models are not as universally effective as the RatJoy models. Kirai with Ikiryo may also pose a problem. However,

I think the problem of there being no Soulstone difference between the way the models change is pretty big. I found the Desolation engine and Abominations a bit too efficient at this too but nowhere near this level. It seems that the Obedient Wretch is actually at the core of the problem at least as much as the Rats themselves. I wonder if the problem wouldn't be solved by needing 4 other rats to Summon a Rat King, and Obedient Wretches only summoning 1 rat when they sacrifice OR upping their cost to six. Doing either makes them far less efficient while remaining efficient in summoning Rat Catchers to keep the engine going.

This would still bring the problem of other Masters benefiting more from Hamelin's models than he does in that hiring them is a cheap and efficient way to soak activations and still benefit from their own internal synergies. So perhaps it should rather be that Hamelin is the only one able to hire Rats and limit the Obedient Wretches Rat Summoning to one.