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An Adepticon Tournament Report - 1st


Icemyn

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9 hours ago, bertmac said:

I don't understand why people would just play hamelin if you cut the rat bomb down to just him

Do people not play this game, even tournaments to enjoy themselves and have a bit of fun? 

 

What makes you people think the people playing at the tournament didn't have fun? 
If you are paying a large sum of money for a con ticket a tournament ticket and then travel costs you are going to build the best lists you can. 
If your opponent is not having fun that is not your fault, if the game/meta isn't fun that is Wyrd's fault. 
I personally had a great time, I know some of my out Ratctivated did not. 
 

3 hours ago, retnab said:

Why not do something like what the Coryphee and Duet have, where it's limited when they're able to combine (for this example, Arcanists only).  Could make it so only Hamelin lets Rats become a Rat King, or (maybe a bit more realistic as noted above by LunarSol) make it so only Hamelin can make a Catcher & Rat from a Rat King.

I did suggest something similar to this in my initial post, but it doesn't do enough to reign in the activations

 

2 hours ago, Adran said:

 A question to Icemyn, and others that utilise this, trying to focus on the actual issue that is wanted to be changed. 

How many Activations beyond the enemy are you actually looking for?

I'm well aware of most of the turn one alpha strikes, and they are used because they happen in 1 activation space. Out activating only gives you a safety from the retaliation that turn with those. I can think of a few combinations that would really strongly benefit from multiple activations (Rusty Alyce reactivating a desolation engine for example, but knowing that it needs to survive on 1 wound before it gets to activate and heal) that I struggle to pull off in most games due to the vulnerability in allowing the opponent to activate part way through. but I can probably still get that to work without the activation control the rats grant. 

 

How much are you using the swarm and the catcher in the game?

If you could only have rats, that didn't turn into anything, would 8ss spent on 2 rats and the wretch still be viable? That's still 4-5 activations on the first turn for the cost of 8 stones, giving you a 2-4 activation cushion.  

 

 

I don't think there is an exact number that I am looking for. +1-3 is fine as that lets you move your threats with impunity and counter there movement, but often I am not activating a non rat model until after my opponent is fully activated. 

If you don't deal with the Ratctivation control, but instead focus on Killjoy you are just going to see the next big thing. Like a Desolation Engine/Rusty as you noted, Or Rusty/Laz or something else not thought of yet. The activation control is the base problem. 

The Rat catcher and Rat King are among the best scheme models in the outcast faction. One eats scheme markers and teleports at 5" and the other has armor and don't mind me. How much was I using them? not much, but because my opponents were tabled or conceeding around turn 2. 

Given that people are only hiring a wretch, strictly to gain incremental activation control is telling. Not turning into anything is certainly bad, but you are still going to out activate for the sum of 4ss. 

I think forcing chain activations helps. 6 rats becomes 3 activations. It's not nothing but without the ability to bring as many as Hamelin can to the table, the investment is not as worthwhile. Maybe giving Obedient Wretches/Rat Catchers Crows :crow should be something Hamelin then does to get rats out more easily.

If you hire 3 rats and a wretch you are only cutting out 2 activations from the cycle. Practically doing nothing. 

If I were to make a lasting solution that doesn't impact anyone but Hamelin, and only minorly, it would be this:
Rats are unhirable, Wretch is only hirable by Hamelin.
It's the least amount of errata solves all of the problems people are having while being non-intrusive to the more casual players. 
 

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51 minutes ago, Icemyn said:

What makes you people think the people playing at the tournament didn't have fun? 
If you are paying a large sum of money for a con ticket a tournament ticket and then travel costs you are going to build the best lists you can. 
If your opponent is not having fun that is not your fault, if the game/meta isn't fun that is Wyrd's fault. 
I personally had a great time, I know some of my out Ratctivated did not. 
 

I did suggest something similar to this in my initial post, but it doesn't do enough to reign in the activations

 

I don't think there is an exact number that I am looking for. +1-3 is fine as that lets you move your threats with impunity and counter there movement, but often I am not activating a non rat model until after my opponent is fully activated. 

If you don't deal with the Ratctivation control, but instead focus on Killjoy you are just going to see the next big thing. Like a Desolation Engine/Rusty as you noted, Or Rusty/Laz or something else not thought of yet. The activation control is the base problem. 

The Rat catcher and Rat King are among the best scheme models in the outcast faction. One eats scheme markers and teleports at 5" and the other has armor and don't mind me. How much was I using them? not much, but because my opponents were tabled or conceeding around turn 2. 

Given that people are only hiring a wretch, strictly to gain incremental activation control is telling. Not turning into anything is certainly bad, but you are still going to out activate for the sum of 4ss. 

If you hire 3 rats and a wretch you are only cutting out 2 activations from the cycle. Practically doing nothing. 

If I were to make a lasting solution that doesn't impact anyone but Hamelin, and only minorly, it would be this:
Rats are unhirable, Wretch is only hirable by Hamelin.
It's the least amount of errata solves all of the problems people are having while being non-intrusive to the more casual players. 
 

Missing my point. 

How long before playing every game the same gets old?

Why would everyone else jump on this tactic just to win?

I'd be far more proud of winning against it than winning with it!

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1 hour ago, Icemyn said:

If you hire 3 rats and a wretch you are only cutting out 2 activations from the cycle. Practically doing nothing. 

If I were to make a lasting solution that doesn't impact anyone but Hamelin, and only minorly, it would be this:
Rats are unhirable, Wretch is only hirable by Hamelin.
It's the least amount of errata solves all of the problems people are having while being non-intrusive to the more casual players.

I disagree it is nothing but perhaps not enough. Is it the case that this is not still an issue if Hamelin is capable of the technique? I understand that it is worse where other masters are concerned but would it not still be NPE to face Hamelin doing the same? If it's not an issue (or at least it is only NPE facing it the first few times because players don't know the master e.g., Molly) then I endorse your idea wholeheartedly. If it is then I think some minor adjustment to either or both the Rats and Wretches needs to happen.

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22 minutes ago, chris_havoc said:

I disagree it is nothing but perhaps not enough. Is it the case that this is not still an issue if Hamelin is capable of the technique? I understand that it is worse where other masters are concerned but would it not still be NPE to face Hamelin doing the same? If it's not an issue (or at least it is only NPE facing it the first few times because players don't know the master e.g., Molly) then I endorse your idea wholeheartedly. If it is then I think some minor adjustment to either or both the Rats and Wretches needs to happen.

well that 10 ss gives 8 activations rather than 10, which has no effect on the effectiveness at all. Getting 1 or 2 activations after your opponent is finished is what most people are after, so since this would still be having an entire typical crew activating before you finish the rat related activations, it does do nothing to solve the problem raised. 

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1 hour ago, bertmac said:

Missing my point. 

How long before playing every game the same gets old?

Why would everyone else jump on this tactic just to win?

I'd be far more proud of winning against it than winning with it!

1) I didn't miss your point. I understand it quite well as it is nothing new. 

2) Doesn't matter. If you are familiar with any number of competitive tournament games you already know people will play whatever thing wins the most. Be it boring, uninteractive, or whatever else. 

3) See #2

4) That is a great opinion to have and I agree with it. Fixing the problem is the solution, pretending it doesn't exist and that people won't play it, is not. 

Please understand that I am only referencing tournament games as no one games their friends casually. 

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So you did miss my point then. You are saying people will play whatever wins despite the fact that it will get boring just to get the W.

I guess it's a mindset thing. 

If i won a tournament i'd want it to be because i played the best not because i abused a broken combo. There's no glory in that!

I'm not ignoring it but players need to be honest with themselves and think am I winning due to my ability or due to the fact i'm doing something which requires no thought whatsoever just that I stick to one broken combo?

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1 minute ago, bertmac said:

So you did miss my point then. You are saying people will play whatever wins despite the fact that it will get boring just to get the W.

I guess it's a mindset thing. 

If i won a tournament i'd want it to be because i played the best not because i abused a broken combo. There's no glory in that!

I'm not ignoring it but players need to be honest with themselves and think am I winning due to my ability or due to the fact i'm doing something which requires no thought whatsoever just that I stick to one broken combo?

If everyone is playing the exact same list, isn't the winner winning via skill? Like Chess? 

That is not Malifaux however and certainly not a game I'm happy to play. 

You are ascribing importance to things that others may not be. 

I do want your ideal world to exist fwiw. Which is why I am advocating for a balance change. 

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11 minutes ago, Icemyn said:

1) I didn't miss your point. I understand it quite well as it is nothing new. 

2) Doesn't matter. If you are familiar with any number of competitive tournament games you already know people will play whatever thing wins the most. Be it boring, uninteractive, or whatever else. 

3) See #2

4) That is a great opinion to have and I agree with it. Fixing the problem is the solution, pretending it doesn't exist and that people won't play it, is not. 

Please understand that I am only referencing tournament games as no one games their friends casually. 

Thanks Icemyn for a detailed report.  It was really enlightening and, frankly, I'm surprised that this hasn't been exploited in the competitive scene more since it's a technique that I became aware of within a few days of looking into M2E (and Outcasts specifically) and stumbling on Hateful Darkblack's Intro to Hamelin video on Youtube (which was posted over a year ago at this point).  You certainly refined the technique and gave a proof of concept on how it can provide a pretty nasty alpha strike or at least positioning advantage to any Outcast Master.  I also think it's really commendable that you gave such a detailed write-up after the fact and are advocating for a discussion of the balance (or lack thereof) in this strategy.  A lot of competitors I know wouldn't do that.

Frankly, I can't imagine that there's a strong argument that this is healthy for the competitive game.  I'll admit that I'm new to Malifaux but I think the advantages in terms of tempo are fairly straightforward and nobody among the players I've described the strategy has argued on its behalf.  I'm all for more arguments on how one can use the stall against the player utilizing it but it seems unlikely, outside of a close deployment situation, that you could really make someone pay in Turn 1 which is, of course, when it's going to be utilized. 

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Coming into my final game with a 2-2 record (more on those two losses in a second), I faced a rat generation list for game 5. Just casual observation, there were at least two other rat generation lists out of the 12 people playing in my row of tables. 

Earlier in the day when round 1 results were posted, I noticed that Outcasts were extremely over-represented in the 1-0 category. Some back of the napkin math counting came up with just about 50% of the 1-0 people were playing Outcasts. Doesn't mean they were all rats or anything about balance, but it was shocking even before I ran into rats.

I certainly struggled a little in my last game due to activation control. Playing a Lilith list meant I wanted to get up and engage my opponent, but I had to activate all my stuff while my opponent was just playing around with rats in his deployment zone until I was done. This meant by the time Ashes and Dust and a Desolation Engine decided to come play, I had nothing left to respond to them. My opponent was good natured and drinking by this point in time, so it was a fun game since we knew neither of us were going to place, but it was pretty one-sided. Had I encountered it earlier, it would have been very demoralizing.

I don't mind losing games. Last year at Adepticon I lost games and I learned a lot and I had fun enough to come back a second year. This year my losses were largely un-fun. Two gremlin stuffed pig lists and a rat list. Going up against the same list twice in one tournament was uncool. Especially since both rats and stuffed pigs feel a bit "gimick-y". My opponents played them well... I thought I was clever by rooting the stuffed pigs so they couldn't explode, but Trixiebelle just Gremlin Lured them so they could move again. But even playing against it twice I didn't feel like there was a lot I could do differently. I'm not sure that means they need changes, but it did leave me feeling a little bit like tournament play wasn't worth it in the future if these kinds of lists are what I'll mostly face.

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Thanks for the report, Icemyn, and thanks for pointing out these problems.  But I was wondering, isn't Killjoy also a big part of the problem?  Out activating your opponent is one thing, but out activating AND getting a first round unblockable delivery system for a melee powerhouse is another.  As a gremlin player, I was wondering if the same kind of power list could exist with the soon to be released stuffed piglets (2pts), combined with pigapult, one or two Hog whisperers (giving rectivate), and, of course, Killjoy.  Maybe with Zoraida to obey the pigapult or the stuffed piglets.

I don't know, I might sound a bit naive since I'm no tounament player, but I like my Malifaux fair and balanced ;)

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6 hours ago, Adran said:

well that 10 ss gives 8 activations rather than 10, which has no effect on the effectiveness at all. Getting 1 or 2 activations after your opponent is finished is what most people are after, so since this would still be having an entire typical crew activating before you finish the rat related activations, it does do nothing to solve the problem raised. 

True though this is also why I said Obedient Wretches are as much a part of the problem. Anyway, it's redundant given Icemyn's talked me around. Rats being unhirable helps a lot and Wretches only hirable by Hamelin. My worry is that making the Wretches (2) Action Summon only one Rat is necessary because hiring two Wretches amounts to 4 Rats which starts the cycle again. Granted they are slow but still able to Summon a Rat King and start the waste of activations, if not bring out Killjoy quite as effectively but given your opponent's crew will likely be out-activated and Killjoy has a decent threat range, it doesn't seem to stop much.

I don't know Hamelin but it's the same problem, right? Or is it not an issue against Hamelin that he gets to out-activate everything first before activating anything important? It also seems superfluous to say he can't hire rats when he gets them for the same price plus an extra activation from a Wretch.

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48 minutes ago, chris_havoc said:

True though this is also why I said Obedient Wretches are as much a part of the problem. Anyway, it's redundant given Icemyn's talked me around. Rats being unhirable helps a lot and Wretches only hirable by Hamelin. My worry is that making the Wretches (2) Action Summon only one Rat is necessary because hiring two Wretches amounts to 4 Rats which starts the cycle again. Granted they are slow but still able to Summon a Rat King and start the waste of activations, if not bring out Killjoy quite as effectively but given your opponent's crew will likely be out-activated and Killjoy has a decent threat range, it doesn't seem to stop much.

I don't know Hamelin but it's the same problem, right? Or is it not an issue against Hamelin that he gets to out-activate everything first before activating anything important? It also seems superfluous to say he can't hire rats when he gets them for the same price plus an extra activation from a Wretch.

Wretch is rare 1. 

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The thing is, anti-rat isn't a bad list against, you know...most other things. The tech most factions will bring to counter rats/ratjoy are going to be the sort of tech they'd bring anyway. Counter-building is less important than counter-deploying, or counter-placement in the early turns. This isn't a tactic that works all that well turn 2, let alone later. If you can position your crew to limit the damage that Killjoy or other late turn beaters can do, then you're back on even footing, having taken a Killjoy to the face, but there's a decent chance that you can take out Killjoy early next turn.

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As I said in the beginning, don't take my word for it. I'm not perfect, but take the time and put my list(s) on the table. Or any outcast list with the rat engine. 

Even if you win, ask yourself was that fun for anyone? Did you have to set-up a contrived counter? Should this really be a part of Malifaux? 

I do hope that we can agree that a change needs to be made, but as always welcome the discourse.

 

 

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well i do have a counter-outcast (mostly for the viks) list when running my own outcasts and it would also stop ratjoy too. dont think it would do so well against some of the other outcasts but you never know.

 

misaki with disguise then whatever other unchargable outcasts you want (A&D, alyce, ronin, hans, oiran - with misaki anyway) and whatever upgrades you want for them

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23 hours ago, Icemyn said:

If everyone is playing the exact same list, isn't the winner winning via skill? Like Chess? 

That is not Malifaux however and certainly not a game I'm happy to play.

Which is why I am advocating for a balance change. 

Some what agree in regards to the skill levels still being important, however, this is an interaction that doesn't require a whole lot of skill to pull off (especially considering how well it has been documented in just this thread). I also see a residual issue in that a lot of this can be facilitated via an opponents rat models as well, making for a very boring game of "two turtles mating in the night" rather than a contest of real skill. This was a crew that could have definitely benefited from a much longer, targeted play test cycle, especially after this was discovered.

In any case the current state of Malifaux is very, very different than the game that attracted me to it in the first place. The increasing balance issues are one of the reasons I am a huge advocate of slowing the pace of development down significantly, allow the current issues to be addressed before adding even more. Errata's are not always bad, and in my opinion are much preferable to the usual method (Industry wide) of just introducing another model that can counter the interaction when taken (if I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors I would just go play that, its much cheaper).

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I think the only real way you can have a longer playtest cycle is to get quite a ways ahead of the release cycle to have the option of an audible if something isn't working.  If, for example, Wave 5's beta didn't start until Wave 6 was in a decent internal alpha state, you'd have the option of putting off a Wave 5 release and bringing in a replacement from Wave 6.

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1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

I think the only real way you can have a longer playtest cycle is to get quite a ways ahead of the release cycle to have the option of an audible if something isn't working.  If, for example, Wave 5's beta didn't start until Wave 6 was in a decent internal alpha state, you'd have the option of putting off a Wave 5 release and bringing in a replacement from Wave 6.

I agree that there is a large need to get ahead of the development cycle, so that the last date to hit the printer in time for a GenCon release isn't the driving factor. I am hopeful that "The Otherside" will take some pressure off of Malifaux and allow the game to settle a bit.

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