D_acolyte Posted April 1, 2016 Report Share Posted April 1, 2016 Masters are complicated, and from the time I played in first ed to now I think I have seen all of the masters in the game at least once. They among all models are the more than the sum of their parts, often we use the parts to specialize and multiply there power in the role we want. Often a masters will have between 2-3 play styles going on between them and there upgrades, so how do you make sense of it. Most players that I know tend to underutilize a masters versatility, I am guilty of this as well as I exclusively summoning Dreamer when I play Dreamer. This also tends to look at masters as a _________ and ignore there other aspects. I will cover how I deconstructing a masters. This will take a good number of steps because masters are complicated; so taking them apart is complicated. To help illustrate this I will go through a master I have played once and played vs a few time step by step from the perspective of my current preferred faction: Neverborn, yes I can feel the eye roll back now. So let’s cut apart Lucius. First step form 4 groups of cards: the master, totem and 0 point model card, the limited upgrades, all other upgrades from the box the master can take, and the general upgrades you tend to take for your faction. Lucius has no limited upgrade, which mean to me that there are no restriction on how I can play him between his various ways VS Pandora who limited upgrades tend polarize her play style. My general upgrades I tend to take on my masters are Aether Connection and On Wings of Darkness. Then there is Lucius and the Scribe in one pile, the totem is included just to ascertain if the totem is needed often this can be ignored. Then all other upgrades he can take are in the last group. This grouping lets me quickly find and compare aspects of the model, especially with bouncing between limited upgrades. Start on the master card. Note things that might indicate his position on the board. Lucius is Df 6, Wp 7, can cause negative flips to hit him and give some models near him bonuses. All this tells me that he can survive the front as long as he is not out there alone. Then I look for restrictions on his ability/action particularly how often key words come up. Friendly Minion: 5, Friendly model: 2, Guardsmen: 1, Mimic: 2. Looking at just his base cards he likes having minions around, which to me is not really a restriction on the master, Neverborn have about 18 minions that range from tanks to guides missiles. Finally I start categorizing what he can do, his attack is ok but not what I want in a beater even though the skill is good, he has 2 ways on his cards to effect scheme with What Lackeys Are For and Guild Intelligence, then he has a fair bit of buffs to minion and ability to order them around. The biggest bonus is the interaction while engaged which will most likely be done to put down a scheme marker. This is where I form my initial statement on how the base model plays: Luscious does not care where he is as long as he has lackeys so that he can order them around or so he can scheme: in short he is a force multiplier or scheme as his base card. Now I will group his upgrades into 3 categories: those that help or utilize aspects of the ways I think his base card is divided and those that do not go one way or the other. So Lucius is looking at a group about force multiplying, utilizing schemes markers or neither. Neither: Surprisingly Loyal, it brings knew toys and helps him survive but directly this upgrade does neither of the two groups I am look at. Utilizing Schemes Markers: Legalese, Secret Assets and Secret Objective all interact with scheme markers in some way shape or form. Force Multiplying: Useless Duplication, I know some will say but D how does this work hear. Understand force multiplying is more than just increasing damage output but also about keeping models viable for longer which this helps with when it comes to mimics near Lucius. Now I check and see if there is anything odd with the breakdown of the upgrades, most notably if there are 2 or 3 in the neither group that can form their own group. Lucius is a little low on the for force multiplication but he has a lot of that already on his card, otherwise this is about what I expect. Finally I see if any of my general upgrades I pulled aside help with these rolls or are they just generally good. If he was more of a fighter both Aether Connection and On Wings of Darkness a lot but otherwise they are still good. Often if a zero point model is overly influential to a master’s differentiation in style it will come up in the upgrades. Now I start the ever important, how many of his upgrades do I think I need on him? For me I tend to go with 2 if I can get away with it which I think I can. I would go Legalese and Secret Objective probably, as Neverborn are often a very in your face faction having a good way to get extra attacks is helpful and Legalese just sounds like too much fun. This means I can leave my 3rd upgrade to be determined by scheme while I am learning him. Contenders for the 3rd spot are Surprisingly Loyal because I love lawyers and you can keep those dirty riflemen, Aether Connection and On Wings of Darkness. Finally I check if the totem is overly useful. I tend to look for resurrections abilities, card generation/opportunity cost modifications, and movement tricks. The Scribe has none of those but he does give a bonus to Df and condition removal so he might be nice to keep around but not a must have. On the topic of emissaries, emissaries are a reaction from Wyrd to the meta and tend to help with one of the play styles of the masters and as such should be considered closely if you are going that style. I have not used an emissary after the beta nor have I taking a supper close look at them. I almost feel like they should be a separate post to compliment this one. Before I get into my things on masters I would like to explain that I tend to see support effect and control effects in several ways that will become apparent. Support is any ability or action that can only affect friendly models. Also a sub category is force multiplication which I tend to put as passive abilities such as Kang's giving a bonus vs constructs when you are near him. The line of this is often a blurry one when it comes to masters like Lucius who has a good number of passive abilities and active action that helps his models. This is mirrored in my idea of control where control is ability or actions that MAY target your enemy. Alternatively I consider passive control ability denial. It is basically a special sub type of how I see control. On top of this some upgrades such as The Plague on Hamelin may touch on both the style of the masters but I will only be putting it in one place for simplicity. I will now do a few masters quick write up, 1 per a faction: Lucius Style: force multiplication and scheme marker utilization Place: anywhere Major Constraint: Minions Limited upgrades: None Neither: Surprisingly Loyal Utilizing Schemes Markers: Legalese, Secret Assets and Secret Objective Force Multiplying: Useless Duplication Totem: not necessary but good for front leading build Kirai Style: Summoning and Placement Location: Rear to Midfield Major Constraint: Spirit Limited: Unforgiven (Placement) and Bloody Shears (Summoning) Neither: Absorb Spirit Summoning: Spirit Beacon Placement: Swirling Aether Totem: Take it, just do it Dreamer Style: Chompy cycle, bubble, and summon Location: Midfields with friends Major Constraint: Nightmare Limited: Dreams of Pain (summon) and Restless Dreams (Chompy cycle) Chompy Cycle: Tantrum Bubble: On Dreaming Wings Summon: Otherworldly Totem: Take it, just do it Hamelin Style: Condition and control Location: Midfield to Front Major Constraint: blighted Limited: The Piper (Control) Neither: Infectious Melodies, Sewer King Condition: The Plague Control: Tools of the Tyrant Totem: useful Wong Style: Damage and Pulses Place: Rear Major Constraint: none Limited: Ooo Glowy (Damage) and a Gremlin’s Luck (Pulses) Damage: Explosive Solution Pulse: Three Demon Bag Totem: can help with Wong’s card needs Shenlong, this guy brakes this system so I am going to diverge from it for a better work. Place: Rear Major Constraint: none Base card is force multiplication and survival Low River and Words on the River: support Fermented River: control Wandering River: Movement/schemes High River: condition and damage Totem: good for conditions If people want I can do other masters like this but I feel this works as an example of how I look at masters. Feel free to comment or ask questions. Note: my personal view is that the game has enough masters but it is only a matter of time till they add more, sort of like warmachine adding more warcasters. I would be happy if 1 in every 2 to 3 years a master is added. I fear what the over population of masters will do to the game. I would also like there to be no more dual faction masters but who know if that will happen. I will buy new masters that I like the look of and the fluff of. Thank you Wyrd to all the hard work you have done into this game I love. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordofjustice2007 Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Could you do the Guild masters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 2 hours ago, swordofjustice2007 said: Could you do the Guild masters? Did you have a particular few in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted April 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 14 hours ago, swordofjustice2007 said: Could you do the Guild masters? My Blurb on Lucius has already been shown but I will re post it as well. For the record and disclosure I am not a guild player nor do I intend to be anytime soon, this is my opinion based off of how I read cards. Lucius Style: force multiplication and scheme marker utilization Place: anywhere Major Constraint: Minions Limited upgrades: None Neither: Surprisingly Loyal Utilizing Schemes Markers: Legalese, Secret Assets and Secret Objective Force Multiplying: Useless Duplication Totem: not necessary but good for front leading build C. Hoffman Style: combat and support Place: the front or midfield master/crew build dependent Major Constraint: Constructs Limited upgrades: Field Mechanic (Support) Neither: Remote Mines Combat: On Site Assimilation Support: Arcanist Assets, it is because of the healing Totem: Useful in both styles Lady J Style: combat and endurance Place: the front or as a threat Major Constraint: on base card minion….. yes there is only one but it is still one Limited upgrades: Vendetta (combat) Neither: Last Stand Combat: Justice Unleashed Endurance: Flames of the Pit, Implacable Totem: skippable Sonnia Criid Style: resource effects and damage Place: midfield Major Constraint: burning Limited upgrades: Reincarnation (neither) Neither: Resource Effects: Disrupt Magic, Counterspell Aura and Cherufe’s Imprint Damage: The Mask Totem: skippable Perdita Style: control and damage Place: midfield Major Constraint: family Limited upgrades: none Support: Hermanos De Armas, Aura Ancestral Endurance: Os Veo Damage: Diestro, Tormenta De Plomo, Trick Shooting Totem: I like it McMourning Style: poison and damage Place: upfront Major Constraint: poison Limited upgrades: On the Clock (guild and supporting others damage), Mooonlighting (Resur and Summoning through poison) Neither: Unknowable Pain Damage: Evidence Tampering Poison: Plastic Surgery Totem: Take it McCabe Style: control and other models, this master is like Shenlong because you cannot separate them from there upgrades well Place: depends on where others are Major Constraint: none Neither: Glowing Sabre, Barbs Support Master half: Badge of Speed, Elixir of Life, Promises Support Other half: Strangemetal Shirt My top 2 for moving around: Badge of Speed, Elixir of Life. These upgrades are arguable as good on either McCabe or other models Totem: Take it if you take dogs otherwise forget it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordofjustice2007 Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 I'm sorry to nay-say, but I think Malifaux is possibly the most reliant on gameplay of any game I've seen, and it sounds like what you're proposing is to just go on theory based on the card. I'll go with Lucius, since I know him okay On 4/15/2016 at 7:54 AM, D_acolyte said: Lucius Style: force multiplication and scheme marker utilization Place: anywhere Major Constraint: Minions Limited upgrades: None Neither: Surprisingly Loyal Utilizing Schemes Markers: Legalese, Secret Assets and Secret Objective Force Multiplying: Useless Duplication Totem: not necessary but good for front leading build Style- while scheme markers are something he can use, I wouldn't say they define his play style- he can run without them and doesn't need them, he just has an advantage in marker-heavy pools. Constraint- no, not really. You started this by talking about people assuming things about masters. Lucius obviously runs well with minions, but he actually only needs enough that by the end of the game he still has a couple around, and doesn't even need the bulk of his force to be them. You can get by with maybe 4 if you pick well, which I wouldn't consider a major constraint. You're certainly encouraged to pick more, but when you cay constraint, I think limitation, not synergy, and I think past that minimum, you're largely talking about flexibility and insurance- once you get to 4ish, you're looking at him running reasonably efficiently. Limited upgrades- yes, there aren't any strictly limited, but he has two (0) action upgrades and limited slots, so it seems worth mentioning that there are traditional choices you make, and how it affects his play style. Force multiplication- of all the things I'd call force multiplying, it's not that. He has a ton of abilities that are about high efficiency, getting extra accuracy, or turning 1 AP into 2+. He also is very reliant on his hand, so I wouldn't consider an ability which drains his hand multiplying force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted April 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2016 12 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said: I'm sorry to nay-say, but I think Malifaux is possibly the most reliant on gameplay of any game I've seen. Odd phrasing for the game play but I think I get what your trying to mean. As for nay-saying fill free but try to have a counter methodology for understanding masters that you are new to. I have no problem if people have a different outlook or a different method but if you feel you are nay-saying then I feel like you should counter with something constructive. 12 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said: It sounds like what you're proposing is to just go on theory based on the card. I will agree experience trumps theory but if you tackle a master to try and figure out how they work or why they work when you first get them then you are dealing with theory often. This is why I worked through a master I had limited experience with instead of one I know well such as the Dreamer or Mei. You could say well I am going to fall back on the experience of others but that is still a theory of how to go about learning the master and is predicated on the assumption that you might like how the others run that master. This assumption is a major issue for me as I know people who could try and emulate my methods/style but they would really not enjoy it because I live in the Blitz. 12 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said: Style- while scheme markers are something he can use, I wouldn't say they define his play style- he can run without them and doesn't need them, he just has an advantage in marker-heavy pools Masters do not have one definitive style but rather 2 or 3 that they can do or prefer to work through. I am not say X master can only work in X way but more that they tend to work with X idea better then not. What 2-3 style would you use for Lucius? 12 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said: Constraint- no, not really. You started this by talking about people assuming things about masters. Lucius obviously runs well with minions, but he actually only needs enough that by the end of the game he still has a couple around, and doesn't even need the bulk of his force to be them. You can get by with maybe 4 if you pick well, which I wouldn't consider a major constraint. You're certainly encouraged to pick more, but when you cay constraint, I think limitation, not synergy, and I think past that minimum, you're largely talking about flexibility and insurance- once you get to 4ish, you're looking at him running reasonably efficiently. By constraints I do not mean that he should only run Y models but more that he tends to get more mileage with Y models or Y conditions. For instance I do not run a pure nightmare list with the Dreamer or often more than 2 or 3 constructs with Mei. Some master may benefit from playing to there constraints more then others, but it is important to recognize them. In the case of Lucius, if you plan or running an enforcer heavy with few minion list then he is not really the master for it. The reason I use the word Major is because I wish to point out the most common one on models that may have multiple constraints on an action or there design such as Nightmares or Minion for the Dreamer tactical action. 12 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said: Limited upgrades- yes, there aren't any strictly limited, but he has two (0) action upgrades and limited slots, so it seems worth mentioning that there are traditional choices you make, and how it affects his play style. When I talk of limited upgrades I am specifically talking about Limited upgrades or upgrades that are faction restricted for a dual faction master such as McMourning. I am not talking about upgrades that a person might not take with other upgrades. This is because I do not want to impose an artificial limitation on what a person could do. Would I take both of the zero action upgrades on Lucius, no but I could see where someone might for a flexible build and was caught by it once. I find when a person starts imposing artificial limitations they tend to miss things, such as how Ramos does not randomize with his electrical fire attack. 12 hours ago, SpiralngCadavr said: Force multiplication- of all the things I'd call force multiplying, it's not that. He has a ton of abilities that are about high efficiency, getting extra accuracy, or turning 1 AP into 2+. He also is very reliant on his hand, so I wouldn't consider an ability which drains his hand multiplying force. This is why I stated what I consider force multiplication. Often a person thoughts on what falls into this is based on there experience and how they chose to group things. There is no correct definition for a lot of these sub groupings and a lot of time models, especially masters, will straddle the two. To sum the distinction could be how resource intensive something is to others it could be weather it targets someone specifically or if it is an action vs ability. It sounds to me like for you the deal beaker on it is the resource in his hand that he has to use for me it is the ability vs action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin66 Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Could you do Gremlins: Som'er and Ophelia? Outcasts: Victoria's? I'm just starting out and still learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted July 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Gremlin66 said: Could you do Gremlins: Som'er and Ophelia? Outcasts: Victoria's? I'm just starting out and still learning. I would say you should try it on your own but it is a slow day Lets start with the hard one: Victoria. Style: combat and good partner (this is a common if you have a zero cost model in there box) Place: mid to front of your force Major Constraint: sister, this really does not matter because your taking at least one other sister model Limited upgrades: None Neither: Howling Wolf Tattoo Combat: Mark of Shez'uul Good Partner: Sisters in Spirit, Sister In Fury, and Synchronized Slaying Totem: though not exactly hers unless Wyrd FAQ it the student of conflict is nice but not needed. Victoria of Blood: TAKE HER! She is a free murder bot and she does her job well. Because she is a little odd here is my recommendation. Master Victoria can run any upgrade except Mark of Shez'uul as you will want that on the murderous sister. .....Green people, why o why.... Ophelia Style: combat and mobility Place: mid to front of your force Major Constraint: base on the her base card: gremlin Limited upgrades: None Neither: Gremlin-see Combat: Hooch Igniter, Jug Rocket, My Threatenin' Gun Mobility: Team Work (It is the one action) Totem: I would take 2 as that lets you gain some upgrades. On an aside I would consider one Gremlin-see or a general like Liquid Bravery or Quality Mah Liquor and then just attach 2 of her combat upgrades with her totems first turn. Som'er Style: combat and cards Place: middle of your force Major Constraint: base on the her base card: gremlin Limited upgrades: None Neither: Pig Feed, Family Tree, Can O' Beans Combat: none Cards: Encouragement Totem: I would take 1 So lets try dividing those upgrades again Limited upgrades: None Controlling your crews effect: Pig Feed, Can O' Beans Summoning: Family Tree Cards: Encouragement I think there may be one more upgrade in Ulixs box he can get but I am not sure. I will look it up when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin66 Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Thank you for your time. As stated I'm new to Malifaux. For now I'm on the learning curve. I haven't even played a small game yet. I have read the rule book twice and am rereading it and trying a few scenarios with a couple figures to get more of a feel for the game. Not that it really matters but the wife liked the look of the Vik's. Me It looks like the Grmlins will be a fun group to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted July 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 No problem, I was also wrong about sharing an Ulix upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin66 Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 As long as all the upgrade cards are in the Generalist Upgrade pack I think I'm good for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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