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cptRamires

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I'm not a game designer, but still...

Firstly, not all factions are the same. Guild for example are big on shooting. Resurectionists are not. When you look at something like a convict gunslinger (hired as a merc) it doesn't seem worth its points in a guild list (because they can already do that well, and probably cheaper) but it can be well worth its points in the resurectionist list.

Secondly, if all you want is a model to lure, then the rotten belle is a bargain. The beckoner does a few other things as well (their trigger for movement after they lure is amazing for their role, it is similar to them having extra AP compared to the belle as they can keep moving models towards them with out having to wast time on walking. ) 

They are also a good way to get out Brilliance and keep the brilliance out, which for some other models is almost priceless. The illuminated is a solid model already, but if its target is Brilliant, the +2 damage they get to do makes them stupidly hard. 

They aren't in direct competition as nothing at the moment is allowed to hire both, but even if the Belle was in Neverborn at the same cost, there are times when people would rather pay the extra stones for the beckoner for the other things it does. 

 

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There are other factors at work. Beckoners are primarily designed to function in a crew which gets a free henchman (Hungering Darkness) and they have some mechanics that make them pretty powerful in that crew (handing out brilliance, blocking interact actions, ranged attack dealing damage and ignoring incorporeal). I can understand your reasoning - if there is any model in this game that is slightly undercosted, it is a Rotten Belle - but I do not believe it is so bad that it breaks balance, in time you just learn how to defend against Belles - it is a mixture of good positioning, taking models that cannot be moved and models that are very happy to be lured closer.

(which doesn't mean I don't harbour some inner hate for Rotten Belles, I guess most of us do :D )

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Yes, most balance is in cooperation one model with another, as it was mentioned in example of "briliance" crew, where you can have free henchman. However rotten belles can be hired by Leveticus + he can bring very strong model (Ashes and Dust) + free totems and start 50 ss game with 10+ models on the table. As you all know Leveticus himself and AaD both very hard to kill and can come back, you cannot ignore them.  In that situation Rotеen Belles will activate late in turn when your already don't have activations left and lure almost any model, so that's why it seems to me that there is some broken balance with this combo Levi + Rotten Belles. 

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I'd disagree, Leveticus can't really afford to hire multiple rotten belles and save them to the end as he relies on having multiple 6+ss models for his anchors.

If the rotten belles cost 6ss then they would be much much stronger for Levi. 

Even if they activate late and lure something critical, I normally expect Leveticus to try and win initiative and kill something if that's what he wants to do. If something else activated and killed what ever they lured in, then I've possibly got a decent chance to stop Levi having an activation that turn. 

Belles are good, but I have never found multiple belles get that much better. Others might disagree, and it may be the way I play but I'm happier if my opponent has hire 2-3 belles than if they only hire 1.  

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I think part of it is that Beckonera have a bunch of other rules and abilities.  If you aren't using/don't want to use those abilities then the belle is a better deal.  Also keep in mind beckoners can be taken in several crews which allow them to act outside their activation.  Essentially it comes down to paying for more abilities than you may want.

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He can get Lazarus as anchor + 3 Rotten Belles + AnD. While Levi + AaD at the forefront, Rotten Belles support them, they lure models which can actually kill Ashen Core... With 10+ models, 2 almost immortal models and such strong lures these crew become outbalanced as for me. 

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You need to find models which ignore armour if you're not able to kill Lazarus and Ashes and dust. (Or use models with counterspell and discover Belles can't then do anything)

I typically have an aggressive mindset, and its rare that I don't kill a waif or an anchor on the first turn. Once I've managed that , my opponent becomes alot more cautious with their positioning. 

Levi really is very far from immortal. He has 2 extra lives, but they are on the board for you to see. Every time you kill Leveticus or one of those waifs, thats one of his lives going.  What he does do is make you play his game, and try and make you think he is immortal, so its not worth stopping his rebirth.  If you can get the waifs away from the anchors, then he also doesn't come back.  

 

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34 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'd disagree, Leveticus can't really afford to hire multiple rotten belles and save them to the end as he relies on having multiple 6+ss models for his anchors.

Not true.

Leveticus -- 5ss
 +Tally Sheet 
 +Pariah Of Bone

Hollow Waif x 2

Flesh Construct

Flesh Construct

Johan
 +Oathkeeper

Necropunk 

Rotten Belle

Rotten Belle

Rusty Alyce
 +Oathkeeper

 

You can activate easily Waifs, Constructs and Necropunk first, then lure enemy models with Belles and finish them off with Levi/Rusty/Johana.


 

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36 minutes ago, Adran said:

You need to find models which ignore armour if you're not able to kill Lazarus and Ashes and dust. (Or use models with counterspell and discover Belles can't then do anything)

I typically have an aggressive mindset, and its rare that I don't kill a waif or an anchor on the first turn. Once I've managed that , my opponent becomes alot more cautious with their positioning. 

Levi really is very far from immortal. He has 2 extra lives, but they are on the board for you to see. Every time you kill Leveticus or one of those waifs, thats one of his lives going.  What he does do is make you play his game, and try and make you think he is immortal, so its not worth stopping his rebirth.  If you can get the waifs away from the anchors, then he also doesn't come back.  

 

Waifs are often far away with some shooting anchor ( Rusty, Lazarus ). With what models (Neverborn) you can get to them quickly and kill? How can you pass through Ashes and Dust? Clever Levi Player will not activate AaD untill you will get some doomed model in his charge range and with 10+ models on the table it is hard to outactivate him so he will be 1 -2 activations ahead while your crew don't have more activations. And if you just stay back then he will get little bit closer and next turn it will repeat. Rotten belles give range threat while AaD and levi hold middle of the table. Which models can get to waifs and kill them in 1 activation? because most often it will not have second chance.

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the last time I faced Levi with Neverborn I used Lileth, had nekema and Teddy with retributions eye.  I killed Ashes and Dust on the first activation of the second turn, and then used Teddy to kill the core.  Nekema later turned the Dust storm into a terror tot. 

Lilith is a good answer to waifs. Its quite easy for her to re-arrange the board to a manner of her choosing. I think he was playiing Construct Levi, so there weren't any belles. Using her tangled shadows to swap an unactiavted big hitter into their crew can often be enough to kill a waif. And if you get it right also bring on of their vulnerable models to the rest of your crew to easily kill them. 

Silurids and Gupps can have a surprising large threat. But a lot of the issues may be terrain dependent. If the belles have line of sight to most of the board, then they are going to be very strong. The ability to move a model and have it hide from their lure is a good solution.

I've also used Tuco from the shadows to kill a waif on the first turn. Tuco was killed by Levi just afterwards though, btu I thought that was a reasonable trade. I got Hungering darkness to engage Rusty in his deployment zone later that first turn, thanks to beckoners

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10 minutes ago, Breng77 said:

Play Lilith?  Tangled shadows to pull models out of position and finish them off, use terrain and forests to Block Los

Lilith my main master, first of all Tangle Shadows is quit hard spell, second it has range 12, so probably Lilith will need still spend at least one  ap to come in to position. With this spell in best case one enemy model will be in the center of my crew, however which model it will be?  Levi ?  doesn't make sense because waif are still far away, AaD?  it will require very hardhitting models to take it down completely, while opponent will not sit back he will rush you. Put some killer in the middle of the Rotten Belles or waif - then probably Lilith will get charge from AaD and Levi, as I have mentioned clever Levi Player will wait with his killer models until you get no activation left, so if Lilith used Tangle shadows then AaD and Levi can now activate and she has poor chances to survive their activations.

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The main problem is AaD charge range threat and at least 10 models on the table from beggining. Actually right now I can't imagine model which can get to Belles through AaD. Ye in some kamikadze style I can do it with master bu change master on 5 ss model... As for Models which can push - this model probably will push Lilith in LoS to Belles and then CA8 vs WP5... Bad idea.

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It depends on your set up, you don't need to do everything turn 1.  So you set up a forest to block LOS and push up behind it.  Or play with enough terrain that block Los to move up behind.  Or that you need to walk around for the lure.  If you don't activate Lilith too early belles pulling her a bit forward is actually bad for the opponent.  

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Have you looked at the Illusionary Forest upgrade Lileth can get. 2 50mm line of sight blocking markers. So when if the board doesn't have somethign to hide behind, she can still  hide from most models. 

If after all that you are still in a  position for Ashes and Dust to Charge lileth, save a high card and get her df trigger. You'll find that Ashes and Dust doesn't hit Df 9 so well.  

If I want to its not impossible for me to get a waif near Lileth and an unactivated beater like Teddy, Nekema or the Mature Nephlim enaged with a large part of Levis crew. And depending on the dep[oyemnt of their crew, there is a very good chance that the Beater will actiavte, and make a big hoel in what they have. Of course, once the Levi player knows you can do this, they'll set up differently, but then their tactics won't be as effective either

From your earlier question, the real answer is it deoends. I might Bring Lazarus into ml with Lileth, as he is much less scary in ml than shooting. Or a belle, or posiibly even Levi if I have the livingblade and enough AP to kill levi before he activates. Otehrwise a waif is virtually garenteed to die to her.  

 

Is it tough to face? yes.

Are Belles broken? No. I have never found them so. Strong, but not broken. 

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